Dems veer right, Trump-Zelensky heated exchange, and Curry J. Hackett use of AI in art, design, and urban planning. DeRay interviews former Lieutenant Governor Brian Benjamin.

News

Playbook: Democrats in despair

‘It never should have happened’: Americans frustrated by Trump-Zelensky spat

Curry J. Hackett has a vision for Black futurity that drives his work in art, design, and urban planning

Follow @PodSaveThePeople on Instagram.

TRANSCRIPT

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, it’s me, on and Myles talking about the news that you might not have heard of last week, and we are just doing a sort of debrief about what is going on in the federal government. It really does feel like every week there’s something wild there and new, but haven’t talked to Don in 2025. So excited to get his perspective. And then I sit down with the former lieutenant governor of New York, Brian Benjamin, to discuss the roller coaster of a political journey that he’s had. It was a phenomenal conversation. He’s not done a lot of interviews since the legal drama ended. I learned a lot, and I hope you will too. Here we go. [music break] Hey everybody. This has been another wild week in the American government. And it is me and Don today talking about everything. Myles is also part of the episode but recorded his news separately. But I’m DeRay at @deray on Twitter. 

Don Calloway: Don Calloway at @DCalloway on Instagram, which is oddly, somehow like my only platform these days. I left X alone and uh I’m not really, you know, I leave Facebook to the aunties and I’m really not adopting the blue sky thing yet. I just don’t have space. I don’t have space for more things. Right. So find me on the gram at @DCalloway. 

DeRay Mckesson: Boom. Well, Don, let’s just start with your read. We I don’t think we’ve had you on in 2025. Right. 

Don Calloway: That’s right. 

DeRay Mckesson: I think the last time you were on was uh in 2024. What’s going on to you? You have you you’ve been in politics at every angle, from being a citizen and a dad to working in campaigns, to being an elected official. In some ways, it feels like this all moved much quicker than anybody anticipated, that Trump has been a little wilder than people thought, but maybe that’s not what you think. So like before we even go into the news that we both have lets I just want your overall download and because we haven’t talked about it before. This would be fresh for me too. 

Don Calloway: Yeah man yeah man, um well, listen, I think we all have to face a reality that this country has been up for sale for some time, at least 50 years, right? Since we moved away from a manufacturing economy where uh to use the theme of season two of The Wire, we used to make shit in this country, and I think that’s Frankie Sobotka, if you remember that classic season um and, you know, in the late 70s, early 80s, we moved to an economy that was based off, driven by finance and the creation of debt and interest is the the profiteering of the country is the accumulation of interest as opposed to the making and selling of actual goods. And so when you relinquish your country and its leadership to the finance world, you have effectively placed your country and its machinations and its policy up for sale. So we’ve been up for sale for a long time. When you place your country up for sale, eventually there’s going to be somebody rich enough to buy it. And that’s where we’ve gotten today with Elon Musk and everything that we see happening under the auspices of DOGE. Now, there is an extraordinarily important player, and that is President Trump, who has effectively opened the doors for uh for the nation to be profiteer to pawn. And that’s what we’re seeing um with DOGE, which is supposedly to make government more efficient. But it’s really just the notion of cutting uh for the sake of cutting and transferring wealth from the public coffers to the private sector enterprises that can make it happen. So as shocking as this is, I just want to lay out contextually that we have been on this track for some time, since we’ve all kind of given in to, as a society, consumerism and hyper capitalism. 

DeRay Mckesson: That makes sense to me in terms of the country being for sale. It you know, I think about the campaign when it was tariffs and egg prices were going to go down and all this other stuff. And then you look and it’s like it just feels like a different type of chaos than his first um, his first term in office. And–

Don Calloway: Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: You talked about Elon. Obviously Elon is the shadow president right now. And it goes without saying that if a Democrat ever tried to put a private citizen in this role, it would be I mean, they be done shut every branch of the government down before that could happen. You look at this cabinet that is literally one of the most unqualified group of people you’ve ever seen in the history of the American government. And a part of me, Don, just doesn’t feel like this lasts. Like I’m like, it feels like something breaks before they can even continue to do it and maybe the planes is the break, I don’t know. 

Don Calloway: It certainly doesn’t last. Um. I saw AOC um and I try not to just spit other people’s talking points, but I thought she summarized this brilliantly when she said, you know, we have been devolving into oligarchic rule for some time now, and maybe this is the end of what we knew as traditional American democracy. And as much as the endgame here, the end result here is tremendous amounts of not only wealth, but decision making power being vested in an extraordinarily, extraordinarily small cohort of self-important people who are making the decisions from a profit based perspective for a broad swath of humanity. But they’re really deciding in the interest of maybe ten people, right? Um. And if you look at the, you know, the neo infamous, the now infamous Oval Office meeting that took place on Friday with Zelensky and Putin. Excuse me, Freudian slip, Zelensky, Trump and uh and Vance. The reality is that the two guys running that meeting were not there and that was Putin and Musk. Right. And so. Uh. This is the first time. And, you know, listen, I have not always agreed with Republican presidents. We have always not been on the same side politically. This country has never been fully unified politically. But I think Friday was important because it showed us that this was the first time that America is ostensibly and objectively in front of the world, on the side of the bad guys. Right? There is one clear side that is attempting to reconstruct the Soviet Union, take over other nations in service of that. And we have always stood on the side of democracy and self-determination, particularly for smaller countries not being overtaken by larger bullies. That is over, at least in the case of Russia, at least in the case of this. So if you’re Moldova, If you’re Belarus, if you are any of the other countries in the Russian Federation, you have to be imagining that you are next in the next 5 to 10 years after Russia finishes this, this well in progress takeover of Ukraine as aided by the United States of America. So this is an unprecedented day, and it’s very difficult for us to continue to wave the the flag of being a global peacemaker. And the reason it happened um in this country is squarely vested upon the Trump administration’s shoulders, because they have been the ones to completely open the door to allow for this type of encouraging on the global stage. 

DeRay Mckesson: Now, I don’t know if you saw um that the playbook released a take away of a meeting of moderate Democratic consultants, campaign staffers, elected officials and party leaders who gathered in Luton County, Virginia, and they are plotting the playbook for the comeback of the Democrats. And let me just read some things that they said, and they said that the party should embrace patriotism, community and traditional American imagery. You know, traditional American imagery has often, you know, not been anybody but white people. So that’s interesting language. The Democrats should quote, “ban far left candidate questionnaires and refuse to participate in forums that create ideological purity tests” and, quote, “move away from the dominance of small dollar donors whose preferences may not align with the broader electorate.” They should, quote, “push back against far left staffers and groups that exert a disproportionate influence on policy and messaging.” That candidates should, quote, “get out of elite circles into real communities like tailgates, gun shows.” That’s interesting. Local restaurants and churches and, quote, “that the party needs to or that the party needs to, quote, own the failures of democratic governance in large cities and commit to improving local government. Before I tell you what I think about that, I’d love to know what your read of these recommendations from the moderate consultants and elected officials and party leaders. What’s your take on that? 

Myles E. Johnson: So my initial thoughts were kind of called it in November, after uh Vice President Harris’s former Vice President Harris’s loss, was that because the Democratic Party just can’t go further left, that is just something that they’re totally uninterested in, that they are going to have to go further right. They’re going to have to be more conservative. And I think the main thing that I feel around it is hurt. It becomes more and more just impossible to really align myself with the Democratic Party when there’s just such blatant failures of morals, of culture um and not just culture in what you like, but you know. Who they’re appealing to and why they’re trying to appeal to it is just antithetical to so much of what people like me, and I’m not special. But that was what so many people found the Democratic Party, you know? And it’s interesting about what they name as cultural moments. You know, cultural moments are or are cultural hubs. So cultural hubs are the tailgates. They’re the gun shows. So these aren’t just American places. These are places where a certain demographic of people are. And it kind of makes it seem like the other places an art show, a drag show, a library, these other places are somehow un-American and not a place to reach out to. Um. I just don’t I just don’t see if this is what is hap– what’s what’s already being leaked and and and and and influencing things already. And it’s just March and he just got it in January. I just don’t see how there’s going to be a place for it. Excuse me. I don’t see how there’s gonna be a place in the Democratic Party for people who are on the left, who consider themselves lefties, who only really associated or interacted with the Democratic Party for pragmatism, the pragmatism angle is just empty at this point. It becomes really hard to say, well, I believe in this type of future. But for now, I’m going to vote this way. When the Democratic Party is making itself, um which the Democratic Party is making it very obvious that they’re committed to conservatism? So Liz Cheney wasn’t just a mix up. That is the new wave of where they’re going. Um. The things that Vice President Harris said about Israel weren’t just mix ups or or flubs. The party is wanting to better align itself with Conservative values, and anybody who doesn’t have those values and who doesn’t align with those values, they’re kind of rendered politically homeless. They’re rendered politically. Yeah, I think that’s a good term for me, politically homeless. That’s what scares me. The only thing I can offer that feels like hope is the idea that after reading this more than any other time in my life, I said, you know what? I might see a Green Party president in my lifetime because of this type of alienation and this type of just uh moving away from where your party’s going and the future of your party, and this kind of alienation is the kind of thing that will birth an actual strong muscled third party situation. And I’d never consider myself a third party voter or a Green Party voter, or I’d never associated with any type of political party. But the more the Democrats unveil where they’re going and where they’re seeing themselves, the more it feels politically responsible to find a new home. 

Don Calloway: Well, it’s important to remember that in times like these, there have always been times like these. And right when I first became interested in public policy in the early 90s, I remember like reading and memorizing Bill Clinton’s inauguration speech, I, William Jefferson Clinton. And that’s when I caught the bug. And that era was defined by basically the principles that you’re seeing coming out of this memo in Loudoun County, Virginia. First of all, I want to point out that as a lifelong Democratic consultant and party thought leader, I wasn’t in that. I ain’t got nothing to do with that. I just want to throw that out there to protect me and my [?]. 

DeRay Mckesson: Said, it wasn’t me. Wasn’t me.

Don Calloway: It wasn’t oh, you know, Shaggy 94. It was not your boy, DC. But what you see there is shadows and echoes of the Clinton era Democratic Party response, which was basically an accommodationist response to the Reagan Republican takeover. And so eventually, the Democratic Party from the presidency of Bill Clinton, which was an extraordinarily moderate one, all the way down to the Congressional Black Caucus, which basically opened the door at that time for the uh for the 90s crime bills which decimated Black communities. Eventually, you see a Democratic party and a two party system who capitulates to the powers that be, particularly when those powers present such an overwhelming economic power, which Trump is presenting right now. In other words, to get money, to be safe, to maintain your job, you need to get on board with this. And historically, that is what Democrats have done with very few kind of nuances to separate the two. So this is the beginning. That memo that we saw out of Loudoun County last week is the beginning of the Democratic Party not only moving to the center, but moving to a fully right accommodationist position. And that’s very dangerous because this Trump administration has very little, if anything, that the American people should be willing to accommodate. But it kind of goes back to my larger point, which is what I have been seeing develop. And it’s kind of good that we haven’t talked yet this year because I’ve had a chance to kind of develop watch watch what’s developing, particularly from the Democratic side. You and I have been blessed to travel around the world, particularly with some lesser developed countries. And in those countries you don’t see a minority party like what you’re seeing right now out of House and Senate Democrats. Minority party plays by the rules. Minority party understands the game, and we believe that our time will come and we figuring out messaging points that we will succeed at the ballot box next time. No. In lesser developed countries, you have an opposition party. In Belize and Trinidad and Tobago and [?] Haiti, in in Jamaica you have an active opposition party. And these are folks who are, forgive my language, willing to burn it down if the government is serving oligarchs. They’re not serving the best interests of the larger people. I see nobody out there wearing a D on their chest that is saying anything about willing to be an active opponent, willing to be members of the opposition party. And that’s something that we see around the world on a regular basis, um not even lesser developed countries. You think about Northern Ireland or some of the countries that we see uh in Europe. It happens all the time throughout Africa. And I just want to see some of that spirit. I haven’t thought through enough to understand exactly what that looks like. But I will tell you, there has to be organized resistance. The only thing and you’re an organizer DeRay, the only thing that has ever beaten organized money is organized people. Well, this has to be the ultimate, ultimate test of that because you have endless, endless organized money on one side, and it is being ruthlessly and efficiently deployed versus a disorganized people. People have to get organized into an act of resistance. Um. Act active, active, not act of. An act of resistance. And that’s the only way you get in is. I remember my thought from from a moment ago um when I look at ultimately what’s happening with this Republican administration from a congressional perspective as well as the presidential. You know, one thing that you come to expect by watching American politics is that we know that at the beginning of a Republican presidency, there will be a a fresh widening of the gap between the haves and the have nots. There will be a fresh broadening of wealth inequality in this country by providing by a transfer of wealth from the public to wealthy communities. It usually happens via the tax code. So the estate tax and the corporate tax and the income tax fudging around with those things to put more money in the hands of wealthy communities. And then on a secondary level, as you know, it begins to happen via messing around with the criminal code, making things harder on crime, serving more bodies into the prison industrial complex. This is so shocking because this is the first time we’re seeing it happen by the actual takeover of government departments, right? By the taking over of actual contracts, by eliminating them from private sector and handing them to companies controlled by Elon Musk and a few other people. So this usually happens. It just doesn’t happen in this overt, explicit way. And to see it happening with such swift and ruthless efficiency, as opposed to going through the legislative machinations of the tax code, which takes a year and has debates. That’s what’s happening it’s the thing they always do philosophically, which is blow a hole in income inequality, but it’s happening in a new way with ruthless inefficiency and and and powered by AI. We’ve never seen that. But it is the fundamental philosophy of continuing to broaden that wealth gap in a way that working class people will never be able to catch up after. This type of wealth is is created via policy. 

DeRay Mckesson: It is really interesting, I think, about these recommendations out of Louden county and it feels like um it feels like the party doesn’t remember that it was the activism of the left that sort of built this Congress. And I think about all these young people in Congress, all these progressive people, all the AOC’s, the Max, the Jasmine Crockett. They don’t exist without the activism of the left. Like, literally, it doesn’t it just doesn’t happen. So I’m always I’m sort of always confused by this. Hakeem Jeffries is not the speaker of the House. Without the protests, there’s not a pressure on Pelosi to step down and make way for new people like I. I believe that so anyway, so there’s that. But the other thing that I my recommendation to the party in all this is to be honest about the seductiveness of fascism. It is seductive. It is seductive to say, you know, hey, we’re going to clean out the government waste and da da. Like the message is seductive. The way they’re doing it is wild. And I think that one of the things I have I’m shocked that I don’t see from the party is a storytelling around the impact. Like when I think about what I would be funding, I would be funding street teams to do videos of all the people laid off. 

Don Calloway: Yeah, yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: I would be like, tell me, tell me how many more paychecks you have until you have to mortgage your house. Like that would be all I would put on the news, you know? And and that is the thing that I think we’re missing. But there are some midterms coming up soon, right? Like, isn’t they aren’t there some elections this year that might matter?

Don Calloway: Uh. Yeah. Virginia, I believe is this year. Virginia is on that odd year off cycle. So Glenn Youngkin, as you know, is the Republican governor of Virginia. But the Virginia governor can only serve one term. So you have some pretty talented Democrats running for governor in Virginia. Um. And kind of a bellwether, right, about about what could potentially happen. Um. Then, of course, you always have the municipal elections, and there are not many municipal elections that are um, you know, in play for Republicans. But municipal elections are important because they give you the opportunity to see are the true progressives going to win? So in the last ten years, that was a conversation about are the Bernie people going to rise or are the moderate centrist accommodationist business friendly folks who still have to be Democrats to win in these cities. Is that going to happen? So we have a mayoral election in Saint Louis coming up in a, I think a matter of weeks. Uh. And and as well as the Virginia. But I’m looking to cities across the board to see whose cities are going to hold up to be their standard bearers in this time of resistance and or opposition. 

DeRay Mckesson: And I want to talk and I um, I can’t wait to talk to Myles about all of these things. But I wanted to talk about, like, the measles outbreaks. 

Don Calloway: Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: I don’t know if you saw dysentery is coming back, which, you know, I thought we had wiped it out. It’s so wild, I was at dinner the other day and I forgot that there’s a generation of kids for whom chickenpox is something that they never knew. That like chicken pox is sort of a thing their parents had. I’m like, I remember chickenpox, you know, but we got rid of chickenpox. But, you know, a part of me is like, there are going to be people who get measles and die, kids who die from the flu, all dysentery. And, you know, these will be some of the Trump voters or people who didn’t vote, who like didn’t sort of think that the federal government mattered. And all of a sudden, you get Health and Human Services and the FDA and everybody taking a back seat, do you think that it’ll matter, that these things will add up, that like there’ll be backlash because of it? 

Don Calloway: It will matter. But you know, what also matters is people like you and platforms like this talking about it. When you have a Trump administration who has enforced, actively directed its administrative agencies to not communicate to the people about what’s happening. That’s a real problem. So you have not seen public communications from HHS or from the CDC or from the NIH for a very specific reason, because not only is it dysentery and measles, but you also have the avian bird flu coming out of Kansas in disproportionate numbers. And so part of a fascist regime is the controlling and shutting down of some sectors of the media. If you look back to, again, the wild ass meeting on Friday in the Oval Office. Uh. You know, we’d heard for weeks prior to that that certain media credentials had been pulled from the White House briefing room and other media credentials were being granted to these right wing, somewhat fringe outlets who popped up over the last several years to cover President Trump favorably. Of course, the credentials that were revoked were the credentials of organizations who the president believes has been critical to him as well as the MAGA movement. So understand that this is the media that you’re going to be hearing from, and it’s not going to say that there are potential new pandemics. It’s not going to say that there’s measles, mumps outbreaks. It’s not going to say dysentery, um which is something we haven’t heard since the Oregon Trail, the video game. Right? 

DeRay Mckesson: Right. [laugh]

Don Calloway: But what you will hear from a quote unquote serious media is, hey, Zelensky, why aren’t you wearing a suit? Right. That’s the type of questioning and I use questioning in air quotes that you’re going to get from the media. So part of resistance is just informing people about what’s really happening. And you don’t even have to do that from a biased perspective. You can just say, hey, America, did you know that measles, mumps and rubella is back like the top of your butt? You know, like these things are real and they’re happening right now. And the Trump administration is actively invested in not telling you about it. 

Myles E. Johnson: So my my initial thoughts when I saw Zelensky and Trump was, again, this is going to be such a this this two T words, theater and Trump, [laugh] you know. So I definitely saw the theater of it. I think what got me wasn’t just that moment of their exchange, the the the intensity. It was how many Black people’s uh reaction to it was positive. How many Black people, both men and women, have a thirst to see this kind of strong man uh reaction. So you see, I was kind of going through so many TikToks of regular Black folks who have conservative thoughts, but they don’t. They’re not Russian bots or, you know, you could see their face. I know who they are. I’ve talked to them in barbershops. I know this type. And they were so satisfied with Trump’s actions toward Zelensky. And they actually did a really good job at translating and making okay Trump’s inappropriateness. So how they even contextualized it they contextualize it like, well, you wouldn’t do this in a dice game or the different analogies were such um, were kind of like, you know, these street analogies about why Trump was being being a good leader. And I’m like, wow, we really are in a moment in the Black community especially, because that’s what I care about most. We are in a moment of the Black community where in so many ways, so many Black people are begging for a father figure. [laugh] Are begging for daddy, are begging for a moment of seeing um somebody who’s going to say, who are you talking to? Who you threatening like that? Even if it’s Trump, even if it’s somebody who would socially in, in some cases, maybe even physically annihilate them for his own power there. They want to feel covered and safe. And that also reveals maybe, how come Vice President Harris didn’t get as many votes too because I think that that type of thirst for safety can hardly be accomplished by a Black man, but damn sure it can’t be accomplished by um a light skinned Black woman in most people’s eyes. So I think that them, people being so happy with that, I’m like, oh, that is how come um Vice President Harris’s visions for the future couldn’t resonate because they people don’t even have the imagination to think that there were other ways to handle Zelensky than what Trump did. People are happy about it. So that’s what was interesting to me, because I saw on one end of the internet, a lot of um liberal types and progressives tear apart the video clip, but I just, I saw on another part of the internet, so many Black folks, conservative Black folks and some Black folks who were like, I don’t like Trump. But I really liked seeing that. I really understood that. I really understood that display of um patriarchal, patriarchal, imperial dominance. Um. They wouldn’t name it like that, but that’s what it was, and it made people feel comfortable. And when you’re in a space of nuclear threat, and high crimes, people want a imperial, patriarchal daddy figure. Um. And the scarier and the uglier and the nastier, sometimes the better. 

DeRay Mckesson: You know, Don, I don’t think we talked about this but my litmus test for whether the left has nailed the messaging wherever I travel is actually voter ID, because I talk to people with a lot of access, a lot of power and influence. And they say to me, like offline, they say DeRay but it’s really simple. Like people should have their ID and I’m like, wow, we really didn’t nail the message. Like we talked about how bad voter ID was. But like, I’m talking to people on every level who like, can’t explain what the problem is with voter ID, right? 

Don Calloway: Right. 

DeRay Mckesson: So I say, you know, I just had this conversation last week. I’m like, the question is not should you have to prove who you are? We actually everybody agrees with that. Like that is not the question. The question is how do you prove it? So when I vote in Baltimore, I have to give my name and my street address, which works. When I log into my Bank of America bank account, bank account, I have a password, boom. There a million ways that we verify who we are all over the place. Now what the Republicans want is there to be one narrow way to verify who you are? And that is actually the reason why it’s bad. Right. So we think about the states where they would say, like a college I.D. is not an ID. The only reason that a college I.D. is not an ID is because you want you don’t want college kids to vote. So when I say that to people, they’re like, oh, I didn’t think about that da da da. But I’m like, but I think about I say this because I’m really worried on the activist side or the or the left, um not and not sort of political leader side that we made we got really good at the demands and sort of got got a little lax on the persuasion. 

Don Calloway: Yeah.

DeRay Mckesson: They like stopped making the argument. But we were right about the demand. And I am really worried about that in this moment. 

Don Calloway: Yeah. Yeah I think that’s a that is something that Democrats have gotten really good at over the last 20 years is saying X is how things should be. Well, well why? You know, and no pun intended. Right? This is the way things should be. This is the end result. Yes, but why? And what are the steps in walking us up to get there? We understand that voter I.D. is disastrous for Democratic participation. Not Democratic party wise, but participation, active participation and full participation in a democracy. But I think we’ve done a really bad job of explaining to people. Well, listen, voter ID would be okay if the state went out of its way to open the doors and provide people with a voter ID to make sure that we went door to door to make sure that everybody had one, to make sure that other forms of voter ID like a high school ID or a college ID were acceptable. Well, maybe there are ways to get us to and or just to understand that everybody who votes does so under pains and penalties of perjury. And you don’t want to risk your freedom to vote on a city council. We don’t do good at explaining those those things. And that’s part of the politics of messaging. But more importantly, the politics of personality. Where a charismatic politician can just get up there and say, we don’t like voter ID, and it’s enough for people to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, without really understanding the nuances of it all. And we don’t play that game better than Trump. We do not have a single individual who can get up there and say a talking point and make people believe it without explaining substance. Right. Our way of governing, which includes logic and reasoning, does not lend itself to being able to spit the conclusion without the syllogism that leads us to that conclusion. And when you just get into a game of saying conclusion, saying the moneyline, we don’t have anybody who can look at the people and charismatically lie without understanding the basis of it. They can do that. Particularly he can do that because that’s what he does. Right. Um.

DeRay Mckesson: He is an entertainer first and foremost.

Don Calloway: He is an entertainer. And we don’t intend to do that. We intend to make serious policy. And when you’re making serious policy, you you own, you have to own and take on the responsibility of explaining that policy as well as possible. Now, in fairness to Democrats, it’s not easy to explain serious policy issues in, you know, in a tweet or in a memo. But that’s part of being responsible citizens and responsible surveyors and purveyors of government. 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned. There’s more to come. 

[AD BREAK] 

DeRay Mckesson: Earlier you were like. I don’t see anybody that’s sort of being the true opposition. What should the people in Congress do? Like a, you know, what they keep saying is that we don’t have a majority in either party. We don’t have the Supreme Court. We can’t subpoena anybody because we don’t have majority in the committees. So the best they can do is sort of like, I don’t know, make Instagram videos. And what, you know, for laymen who have not worked in Congress, have not been elected office, who are outraged. What should we be asking our congresspeople to do? 

Don Calloway: Well, there should be no votes. And even whether or not we have the majority or not, there should be no votes. There should have been no votes confirming a single member of the Trump cabinet. There should not be any votes confirming a single member of the Trump judiciary for upcoming appointments. There should not be a single bill that is not filibustered by every member of the Democratic caucus in an organized way. There should not be a day in which the Trump budget or the Speaker Johnson budget or the Republican agenda should flow through the House without significant systemic disruption. [?]–

DeRay Mckesson: So how do they do that if they don’t have the majority? This is a real question. 

Don Calloway: You don’t have to have the majority to filibuster in the Senate, right? Uh you–

DeRay Mckesson: Explain the filibuster to people. 

Don Calloway: The filibuster just means I can grab the mic in the United States Senate and talk for as long as I want to, until the Senate is going to have to determine to either take a proposition down off of the docket of things that we’re going to vote onto. This is a very simplified view, a simplified explanation, but if I can talk for as long as possible, then they will take this down and we will reconsider it. We will make some changes to it, or we will just completely table it, because Senator X is usually one person, but it can happen in a coordinated way across multiple senators. Senator X is willing to grind the proceedings of this body to a halt, rather than us take a vote on this. And so I think that’s one thing that there is no excuse that the Democratic Senate caucus is not filibustering every single piece of everything, because we can’t afford to let this agenda pass. On the House side, there are all types of injunctive relief measures that the House can do from uh vote, I’m forgetting the exact language. But uh there are many ways that the House can force votes. They can force impeachment votes. Listen, I think that this president has done enough by ceding executive authority to DOGE and to Elon Musk and this president’s done enough to be impeached a third time by overstepping executive authority. Um. There are a number of things that the House can do in terms of procedural measures that know they don’t have the permanent effect of the filibuster, but they certainly have the effect of a thousand papercuts and making Speaker Johnson and ultimately the White House realize that, no, we will not move forward as planned on a regular basis, without some type of disruption to the body here. Um. The White House is winning right now because they are taking advantage of executive authority. And so one thing that I think that Republicans in Congress as self-important and actually important as all of them are to some extent, one thing they need to realize is that they are also being rolled over right here. Right. Speaker Johnson has been made irrelevant. All of these committee chairs of the most important and venerable committees in both the House and Senate have been made irrelevant right now, and they have the majority. That’s not comfortable for them. But right now, Republicans are so deeply invested in simply rolling over for everything on the Trump agenda that they don’t realize that themselves, when they will realize it is when we reach a critical mass of government layoffs, plus private sector layoffs, reaching people in every congressional district and private sector layoffs are coming. We’re already seeing the government firings and the furloughs happen, of course, across all departments of government. So we know that that’s happening. What we’re not seeing or what people I don’t think are putting together, is when Elon Musk cancels the Ford contracts to make electrified postal fleet vehicles. That means that is a major hit to the Ford Motor Company, uh that the people will feel. Ford will have be forced into layoffs for that. When Elon Musk says Starlink, it needs to take over the FAA modernization contracts to modernize air traffic control systems. That is a major that is a major hit to Verizon, which will result in layoffs. And so Ford last week, Verizon this week, we don’t know what companies have something that Elon Musk and Musk led companies or Musk invested companies can take over next week, but you can’t take this much revenue even though it’s coming from the government, it’s still going to that revenue, which is going to that stock valuation on that stock ticker. You can’t take that kind of revenue from these major American pillar companies and not expect them to not reduce workforce and for those to be seen. So you take these private sector reductions, you couple them with the federal uh furloughs and and reductions. We are looking at mass mass unemployment over the course of the next six months, and that’s going to affect everybody. So two of my dear white Republican friends, the good cis het brothers who I know are good folks, but they just they want to root for normalcy and a good economy. This will hit you too. You are not rich enough as an SVP at Acme Co because you have two car garage and a peloton, both a bike and a treadmill. You ain’t rich enough to survive this when there is mass unemployment on both the federal and public sector and the private sector. We are not generating growth in economic industries here in this country. Oh, by the way, he ain’t brought Pittsburgh back, right? Like he said during the campaign trail. And there are public outbreaks from disease that this administration is not communicating to you all because five people want to accrue tetra wealth, like my neighbors to the left and the right. They are not safe from that. Right. And so I think that that’s when unfortunately, it will take six, seven, or eight months for the pain of the economic ramifications of all of that to hit Main Street America. But I think that’s when congressional Republicans will finally wake up. The question is, what are they willing to do to hold Trump accountable and put a stop to it? Once a whole bunch of Americans are feeling the pain, like by the way, Elon told us would happen six months ago, the middle class is going to have to feel the pain, and somehow we just all accepted that as campaign rhetoric. 

DeRay Mckesson: It was interesting to see how people went from being like, he’s a he’s a genius. He’s the smartest person ever to finally being like, no, this man is racist and wild, incompetent. Cutting out whole departments just control F looking for anything that says POC and DEI, but let’s take a second and listen to Myles’ news so that we can engage it. 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay, so my news this week is Curry J. Hackett. I am obsessed with this artist. He has a he has an interview in The Architect’s newspaper. And there’s a few reasons why I’m obsessed with him. First thing is Black young person doing art that is um investigating not just history, but also future and also present. So what that means is his visual art really um shows how he sees the past through his mind, the future through his mind and the present through his mind. And I think sometimes as Black artists, we could be so um gridlocked in the, in the, in the historical context. And even when we do try to do futurism or, or even just try to display real life today, it’s always in the context of the shackles of our past history. And he and he. He surpasses that by using Afrofuturism and subverts that, or I should say, better yet, he subverts that by using Afrofuturism. Um. And the other part, of the reasons why I wanted to bring him in, and also this is hard to convey on a podcast, but it’s just beautiful, you know, you look at it, the artwork, the materials that he uses, him using 3D and AI and some things look really real and some things look really um augmented. And that collision of nostalgia and futurism really kind of articulates, I think, a type of feeling we all feel. You know, uh as at least I do as I’m in my, my, my modern apartment. But I’m watching Living Single reruns. But I’m also having to think about the world. I feel like I’m always kind of living in this augmented reality that’s negotiating futurism and, and, and nostalgia. And I think he articulates that so well. The other thing about his work is his use of AI to me. So AI obviously is controversial. There’s, there’s there’s even a lawsuit with, with, with with people suing because of because it’s how AI works. They has to take copyrighted materials in order to create quote unquote, “new,” quote unquote “new things.” But I do think that no matter how you feel about AI. Curry’s take on it is interesting and important. And I’m going to read a little piece of of the article. I really implore everybody to go search it and read the whole thing because it tickled my brain. So the article says, the artistic use of Midjourney has its critics, who point either to Midjourney’s unsanctioned use of artist copyrighted material to train its model, which a recent lawsuit alleges is not without merit or the energy intensive nature of generative AI. Hackett put it this way. I think people are uncomfortable with a tool that they are already uncomfortable with that is being used to render black bodies and faces. So I think that that’s that’s extremely true. The other thing that he does in his that in his work when it comes to AI too, though, is that he uses it to reimagine past and and and history. So what I mean is he goes into what you would think are nostalgic Black spaces. So let’s just say a barbershop. Let’s just say brownstone buildings. And then he reimagines if we really weren’t just put here. Right. You know, Black people didn’t always have the autonomy to design things in our own, in our own cultural authorship. Sometimes we had to either do that ourselves, interiorly, or we had to always compromise. But how his art goes, he’ll have these plants everywhere, or these designs that kind of um um obviously go back to ancient African design. So he’s really saying, what would had the past looked like if we were able to 100% be the authors of Design and Architecture, and then from that space, from that platform, what then would our present look like, which is this kind of, you know, alternate reality. And then from that space, what would our future look like if we all if we weren’t in search for ownership. But we had always had design and artistic ownership in the spaces that we occupy. And I think when we when when we know how ill resourced Black artists are, when we understand how uh hard it can be to get people to participate in Black art that isn’t serving white gaze. So I think about how many people it takes to make a Jeff Koons, how many people it takes, even if we don’t even go there, even how many people it takes to do a Kehinde Wi– um Wiley painting, but would people be interested in it if he wasn’t pushing and projecting Black bodies inside of these Eurocentric landscapes. So I think that we have to understand that whether we like it or not, whether we want to debate it or not, that AI is very useful for the Black imagination, who’s under resourced, who does not want to prioritize white gaze in their art. So I had to as as uncomfortable as I am with AI, his work made me think. Wait, he’s one person who was able to design these worldscapes and and do the and do these installments, and he needed the help and and and and if and if it wasn’t this way this will be millions upon millions upon millions of dollars to be able to execute, which really means it wouldn’t have happened. So and I think when we’re in this visual propaganda landscape. Listen, you could write a book all day, which is cheap to do. You know, literally writing is cheap to do, but there’s something to being able to give somebody the visual propaganda. And it just it has complicated my relationship with AI, I’m not saying that I’m for it, not saying that I’m against it, but it made me understand why an artist would utilize that specific specifically under um resourced artists with under resourced ideas. Another part of the article that I wanted to grab for you all was this quote from Hackett. I’ve just been having fun folding Afro descendant culture from various regions in the States in on themselves or cross-pollinating so-called northern narratives with so-called South and southern narratives. I thought that was really interesting too, because inside of the Black community, we can often post the Great Migration. We can often silo ourselves and see certain things that are West African or Southern Black American as overly simple as as not as intelligent. I think how he sews together these landscapes of the South and the North and complicates it, makes just reminds us that it is all the same. That when you do go to like where I’m at in the Midwest now. I’ll hear so many people and they sound like they’re from California. And I’m like, why do you all sound like y’all from California? And how did that happen? And then I realized that so many people from here are from Alabama, and so many people from Cali are from Alabama. So a lot of what I associate with just California is really has, you know, southern roots. And so much of that southern dialect is also African. And so I think that him just taking all of our historical context and putting it in a bottle and shaking it up and messing it up, reminds us of that where as whereas I think that sometimes we can get so lost in our own territories and our own artistic and um and, and, and intellectual territories that we forget that it’s really all coming from the same baseline. It’s really all coming from the same place. In his work and his use of psychedelic and Afro futuristic esthetic really helps push through that no, this is something that is African and and and and and something in the chaos that he creates creates a kind of clarity of it could have been so many different ways when it comes to Black cultural creation. But what couldn’t change is that it’s African and it’s like, that’s what that’s what wouldn’t have changed and something about him putting southern things associated with the South next to things associated with the North, next to things associated with African, next to things that are associated primarily with America, reminds us that the the consistent drum in all Black expression is this um is this is this African lineage that we all share. And his work really helps push that forward in a really, really, really interesting way. So I hope you all love me ranting about him, and I hope you all go check out his work and the articles and just not just him, but so many other artists who are doing really cool, exploratory things in this time. I think that they are all worth your your your eyes and your ears and your and your attention because it’s really interesting work and it helps you. It’s a prompt too for you to imagine your own political futures differently. I think when you see something that’s so strange, it makes you think, well, what’s the queer politic there? What’s the leftist politic there? What’s the or who’s the president in that world? You know what’s going on? What’s the oppression or domination in that world? What what what are the things that that world is still trying to overcome? That all that is, all that is prompted from um from art, from these kind of Afro futuristic, thoughtful artists. So I wanted to bring on my newest obsession and hope to bring you all more and more and more as the year progresses. 

DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere more Pod Save the People is coming. 

[AD BREAK]

DeRay Mckesson: Myles, as usual you are putting us on to an artist that we didn’t know about. So shout out to uh shout out to the artist and I’m going to look up more of Curry, C-U-R-R-Y’s work. What is interesting that you talked about was sort of a, you know, potentially the ethical use of AI. I’m interested in, you know, I’ve been trying to steer clear of the AI thing for a while. I’m sort of like, you know, people can’t pay their phone bills and their gas and electric, and we are over here developing fancy tools. 

Don Calloway: [?]

DeRay Mckesson: –answer social studies questions. I’m like, this just can’t be the best use ofa trillion dollars and the impact on the economy. And then I think about I am interested. I was talking to an educator I know, and they were like, oh, we did the school schedule with AI. And I was like, well, that’s sort of interesting. Um. And I’ve been talking to people who are developing apps and building things that aren’t just like doing the hey, tell me what year this happened, which is sort of what I see most people using AI for. And I hadn’t heard anybody sort of make the case for AI and art that wasn’t just about theft and grift. So this was interesting to hear. And thank you for putting me on to the artist. 

Don Calloway: Yeah, art. Art is like one of the prestige, you know, professions and as much as people and this goes from all types of art, from music to oratory, where people take an extraordinary amount of pride in self-generation uh what they thought of coming to fruition in whatever medium. And so I think it’s going to be very, very difficult to get our minds around, particularly art, artists and art snobs. It’s going to be very difficult to get our minds around this being quote unquote, “computer generated.” And I think it helps us get there easier if you imagine the AI as a tool no different than a keyboard or a synthesizer for a musician, because we’ve been listening to computer generated music for some time right now. Stuff that didn’t come from a classic piano or a classically trained uh cellist. Right. Um. And so if you look at the AI and all of its capabilities as a tool, which still kind of helps the artist get what’s in their head out into the world, then I think it becomes a lot more palatable. Uh. I’m far past the notion of scorning AI for the use of everyday tasks, like you just brought up with the scheduling of the school. I think it’s not only uh efficient, but we’re moving into a place where it’s necessary for that type of stuff, but it’s going to be very, very difficult for us to adopt it uh as an artistic tool uh because it conflicts with our notion of merit and our notion of meritorious art coming as original creation. But the reality is that, at least in the music context, we have been dealing with assisted art, computer assisted art for 50 years now. But also, if the AI is a tool for efficiency, then I think we can begin to wrap our minds around the notion that it’s no less meritorious, because the artist still had to think of the concept, that the consumer of the art is witnessing and taking in. Um. Because I’ve seen some amazing things come from AI that I wouldn’t have thought to even birth into the world. So that’s what I think kind of helps me deal with the notion of AI assisted art a little bit better. But I just love hearing from Myles so much because he’s put so much time and invested so much thought into these notions of art and Black nostalgia and Black futurism, that it’s just wonderful that people are thinking about the world in these kind of ways. You know, when, when you and I are doing things like running around trying to kill bills, right? There is still a necessary place uh for artistic thought as a function of liberating oppressed peoples. 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned. There’s more to come. 

[AD BREAK]

DeRay Mckesson: This week I sat down with former Lieutenant Governor of New York Brian Benjamin. We met a long time ago, and then he resigned because he was being prosecuted by the federal government. And this is one of his first interviews after they dropped the charges against him. I hadn’t talked to to Brian in a really long time. It was powerful to hear his reflections on the process and a reminder of the incredible power of the state. I’m excited for you to hear it. Here we go. Brian Benjamin. We have not talked in a long time. You’ve had a lot going on. How’s it going? 

Brian Benjamin: I’m doing well. Just adjusting from the three years I’ve been. I’ve been to hell and back. But I feel strong and God is good, so I can’t complain. 

DeRay Mckesson: Well, let’s start at the beginning. I met you because you were in the assembly, and I was trying to–

Brian Benjamin: Senate. 

DeRay Mckesson: Oh, I call them both the same thing. In the Senate. 

Brian Benjamin: That’s fine. 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay. 

Brian Benjamin: That’s fine. 

DeRay Mckesson: Sorry, in the Senate in Harlem. And and then you become the lieutenant governor. And it’s like, wow, that is. 

Brian Benjamin: Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: It was like, this is so cool. And then the, the, the attorney for New York, for the federal government charges you with corruption. 

Brian Benjamin: Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: You resigned almost immediately. Right? 

Brian Benjamin: I did I resigned the same day. Yes. 

DeRay Mckesson: Can you talk about the decision to resign and then let’s talk about sort of what comes after. 

Brian Benjamin: Sure. So the the day before I was I got a call from my lawyers saying to me that I would be indicted the next morning and that the FBI will be picking me up at my house and taking me downtown to be processed. Obviously you can imagine that was an enormously emotional time for me, a lot of crying and confusion because I didn’t actually know what the charges were or what they were about. And, you know, so I did have some time to start thinking about all of this. And, you know, and quite frankly, I was so concerned about a couple of things. One was the impact that this would have on my family and and my loved ones, people who have supported me for the years. And I really felt very strongly that I couldn’t stay in the present situation now. I couldn’t stay as lieutenant governor, where there was a lot of faith and trust in who I was. And and now I have this big question mark. And you know, being able to serve in public service is, you know, such an honor to be a lieutenant governor, as you mentioned, or in any of these positions where you’re given the public trust. So for me, because that was called into question, I didn’t believe that I could effectively carry on the duties. So I resigned to have them addressed. And I called the governor and told her that I was going to resign immediately. And, you know, you know, I knew that that would make me look like I was guilty, but I but I felt that the evidence would prove itself out over time and that I would be able to recover eventually. Also, I didn’t want to be a burden on the political process, you know. We were two months from an election. You know, the Democrats were trying to win back the Congress. We were trying the you know, the governor was trying to win her first term. So the timing of when I got indicted was so close to the elections. It would have been way too much confusion. I had a lot of uh members in Long Island, in the state Senate and others who were in very competitive races. I knew I would have dragged them all down, and I just didn’t think me staying as lieutenant governor was was worth all that chaos and confusion that would have meant for them and my family. So I I decided to resign. 

DeRay Mckesson: And what happens next? So you resign and then you get processed. 

Brian Benjamin: Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: The day that that you have to go to court. And then is it–

Brian Benjamin: Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: Just a million hearings? Is it like what what happens next? 

Brian Benjamin: Yeah. So what happened after that, honestly, was I had to make a decision around who my lawyer was going to be. You know, I was I at the time was being represented from by a good friend who had an incredible track record. Just a just, just salt of the earth great former federal prosecutor himself. But I believed given the nature of my charges, which I found very questionable and very aggressive, that I needed a different I need a more of a bulldog let’s, you know, let’s go to war in the in the mud attorneys. And so I knew of the folks who had represented De Blasio. But when he did not get indicted as when he was mayor, and I just felt very strongly that they can help me navigate through this process. And so what happened was I spent a lot of time with them going through the evidence. I mean, they gave us like, you know, you know, so much data, so much irrelevant stuff. But that’s how they they they spend all your money. But that’s another another time for another topic. Another topic for another time. But I spent a lot of time with them just kind of processing and really going through all the data, going through all the information and preparing for us to submit a motion to dismiss. That was the we had one or two hearings, but the main thing that happened next was in August. There was a motion to dismiss, and they spent a we spent a lot of time in ours preparing for that. That’s what led to the first dismissal. And then when the judge dismissed the charges pretrial, then there was then the Southern District appealed that. So I spent two plus years and you know about this. Two plus years just dealing with a lot of legal back and forth around what is an actual explicit quid pro quo and campaign contributions. Very dense stuff. But that’s what I spent a lot of my time doing, preparing for a trial that didn’t happen because the charge was dismissed, and then dealing with a lot of legal back and forth around what is a crime and what’s and what is not. Before we got to the place where the charges were dropped by the Southern District of New York. 

DeRay Mckesson: And they were saying, and tell me if I got this wrong, that they are alleging that you got a $50,000 state grant for a real estate developers nonprofit organization in exchange for campaign contributions. That was what they were alleging you did? 

Brian Benjamin: Yes. And they were alleging that I did that. And then I lied about it on forms. And just so you understand, because I know, you know, there are a lot of activists and people who love me and who are so interested in this, but I want to make sure people understand what happened. What they said was the gentleman who actually subsequently passed. He, in his mind, thought when he received the grants that it was in exchange for campaign contributions. And so not that he and I spoke about it, not that he told me or I told him, but this is what he felt. Meanwhile, he had asked me and others for grants for the nonprofit. But let’s leave that aside for a second. And then they said, because I filled out lieutenant governor questionnaire and some other forms, and I didn’t acknowledge that I participated in bribery. I thus therefore lied on those forms. And so as a result, that’s a crime as well. So these five, it was five charges. Three charges were tied to the actual bribery. Two were tied to falsification of records all representing about 65 years in prison, given the sentencing guideline statute. And so that’s what I was looking at. 

DeRay Mckesson: And what were the ca– what were the charges that were dismissed? 

Brian Benjamin: So the and so in December, on December 5th, 2022, the judge dismissed the bribery charges and he the three bribery charges. And he did not dismiss the false falsification of records charges. He said that they alleged those sufficiently, but he said the bribery charges had to be dismissed because they did not present evidence of a crime in the indictment. And so that was that was actually not a crime from his understanding. Because whenever you have campaign contributions as the as the quo in a quid pro quo, there needs to be an explicit agreement. And there was no alleged explicit agreement because as you can imagine, if it’s just someone gets, you know, campaign contributions of someone is legal, a grant to a nonprofit is legal. So the only thing that makes it illegal is when you and when you say this was done for that. And so if if there isn’t has there doesn’t have to be a strong tie, then you can arguably indict almost anybody at any time, because there’s always going to be campaign contributions, there’s always going to be grants and all the rest of it. So the judge says, I don’t see an allegation here of an explicit agreement. Therefore I’m dismissing the charges. 

DeRay Mckesson: Now, the thing that I’ve always wanted to ask you is, how does this even become a case like did, that’s what I couldn’t figure out like this, did a reporter write about it and then it, you know, they sent it to the prosecutors did and like, how does this even become a thing? 

Brian Benjamin: How does that even happen? So what happens what happens in this case was, first of all, there’s there’s a lot of theories on what happened. I’m not going to be a conspiracy theorist. I don’t do that. But factually speaking, there the the donor, the the the the the the real estate developer in my case had engaged in recruiting donations and doing the matching funds process. And there were some people who had said there was a donation made in my name. I didn’t do it. And so there was. So that got exposed. When that got exposed, that real estate developer got into trouble. When they when they sort of went after him on what that on what happened there. There were other issues that they found, what have you. And then. And then he stated later on. Oh, well, actually, I got this grant from Brian. And when I did, I thought it was for a campaign contribution. So therefore there, an indictment can happen on those on those on that basis. You don’t need hard evidence. You all you need is circum– all you need is someone to say I believe this. And then that is grounds. Now typically prosecutors are so typically prosecutors say, well, we don’t bring charges unless we believe we can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. That’s typically what happens. But they don’t have to do that. The law doesn’t allows them to have flexibility. And secondarily, because the cost of defense is so onerous, most people can’t afford to defend themselves or fight for themselves. Typically, whenever they get hit with charges like this, they they plead guilty and, and and then they become a statistic. 

DeRay Mckesson: Got it. Now, it was so confusing because I know that the developer has since passed away, but whether he was alive or not, if the initial charges got dropped and the only thing that you were still being charged with was the form, then it wouldn’t matter what he said, right? Is that true? Am I missing something? 

Brian Benjamin: They could. No. Yeah. They could have brought the charges on the form. The problem is the the the the the the the form. What they saying I lied about was bribery. They and so you have to prove it first because it’s not just a standalone item. Right. And so it’s hard for them the it was hard for them to bring those falsification records without the actual bribery charges because they need to be able to show, well, this is the this is the crime that Brian committed and then he lied about that crime. But you can’t just focus on I’m lying about a crime that you didn’t show I committed. So I think that’s why it was all links when you when you when the judge dismissed the bribery charges, you know, the case kind of goes away unless they can reinstate the bribery charges to then make their entire case. 

DeRay Mckesson: Oh. You’ve had a long three years. 

Brian Benjamin: [laugh] There’s no doubt about that, my friend. 

DeRay Mckesson: And what is the moment? 

Brian Benjamin: No doubt about that. 

DeRay Mckesson: Did you did you get a phone call? Like, how do you how do you get notified that it is over? 

Brian Benjamin: Oh my God. So so so let me just give you. Let me just walk you, give you a little bit about that. So what happened was after the former U.S. attorney left because when Trump got elected, the former U.S. attorney left. There was an interim sort of U.S. attorney, for lack of better terms, who served out the remainder of the Biden term before Trump took over. When the former U.S. attorney left, we reached out to the new administration. We asked for a meeting. They granted us a meeting. The meeting was granted the Monday before Biden was before Trump’s inauguration. We met for for a few hours, went through all the arguments around why we believe that there’s no case and they should drop the charges, asked for them to drop the charges before Biden leaves, because we didn’t want to be affiliated with the Trump administration. On that Friday at 5:30, my lawyers call me screaming and yelling that the prosecutors had put in the state. They the the document to to say they’re withdrawing all of the charges and that everything we dropped, I was crying and screaming, you can only you can only imagine [?]–

DeRay Mckesson: Where were you? 

Brian Benjamin: The emotion. I was actually in this same room I’m in right now. And I was at this window and I fell down and just was sobbing because I just couldn’t. It was just so much tension that I didn’t even know I still that I was carrying, you know, and it just all released. And then it became I don’t believe it. Right then I wanted to see–

DeRay Mckesson:  You’re like send me the letter. 

Brian Benjamin: Exactly. 

DeRay Mckesson: I want to see the letter right now. And are you alone when this happened? 

Brian Benjamin: I was alone. I was in this office by myself, right at this, at this window. And I literally fell to the ground sobbing and crying. Couldn’t believe it. And then the first thing I asked was, well, I want to see it? Where is he? 

DeRay Mckesson: That’s right. Show me the letter. 

Brian Benjamin: Um. [?] Send me the. I want the to see the signed document. And then they said okay yeah, but the judge has to sign it. I said, okay, well where’s the judge, right? And the judge because it was 5:30. So we didn’t know where the judge exactly was, but they found the judge. He signed, and by the way, just so you know, if the judge didn’t sign it Friday at 5:30, I would have been pushed into the Trump administration because the next Monday was a day off, as you know, because of MLK. And then it would have been Tuesday when he would have signed it. And so in either event that’s for a formality. But it got signed and I had my freedom that Friday around six around 6 p.m.. 

DeRay Mckesson: And what was it like for the people in your life? Like I can only imagine that this was not only heavy for you, but you know, living in public has its own consequences that are not just consequences for you, but for the people around you. What was that like? That had to be a long three years as well. 

Brian Benjamin: Well, listen, you know, my family, my my wife, my children, my loved ones, my friends, the folks who have been standing by me day in and day out. It was difficult for them, you know, and they were encouraging me and, you know, trying to make sure that I didn’t lose my mind and my wits and that I was really focused on fighting this. Right. Because, you know what really helped us a lot. And I really thank my, my lawyers, Barry Burke and Danny and Andrew and Darren and the team was that they said to the people who I care about most, particularly my mom, who couldn’t who didn’t sleep for months until the charges got dismissed. They said, listen, we’ve been doing this for 30 years. These charges are as weak as we’ve ever seen in our careers. It’s a joke. We’re going to win and stand by your son. And I just think that helped a lot because, you know, it was very difficult to have, you know, your integrity challenged in that way and to know you didn’t do it. But there being a situation where the media and and and and and it’s just it’s just laying the stuff out like you’re a criminal and you’re being called disgraced and no one reads anymore. So it’s just it was just a horrifying experience. Also, one thing my pastor, pastor Mike, who really stood by me and gave me a lot of counseling in the system, and my therapist as well, but it was, you know, DeRay was it was tough, but, you know, but I but but I’m a fighter, you know, I come from. I come from a family and my parents and my grandparents, you know, they you know, we we not new to struggle, you know. So for me, it was like, I’ve got to defend my family’s name, my legacy. I had to defend my name for my kids and my, my, my [?] two little girls and my grandkids. And and those to come, like, I’m not a criminal. I don’t participate in in crime. This is just this is not going down like this. And I’m going to fight for as long as it takes. I would have fought for another ten years if I needed to. I mean, like, I, you know, there was some talk, some folks say, oh, why don’t you plead guilty to a misdemeanor, particularly when Migdol died. So when, when Gerry Migdol who was the developer, when he died in February of ’24, there was a thought. Okay, well, I think the plantiff don’t have a case now. And, you know, you can go try to plead for to a misdemeanor. They’ll give it to you and you’ll just get a slap on the wrist and move on. But for me, I was like, no, no, no, no, no. They either going to dismiss these charges or we’re going to trial. Those are the two choices dismiss or trial. And and I stood firm by that and and everything worked out. 

DeRay Mckesson: Do you do you have any sense of the motivation to move forward with such flimsy charges, or to keep the case going if he passed away so long ago and your and your charges just get dismissed? 

Brian Benjamin: Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: Like that it just seems so. I don’t know, I’m trying to make sense of it, especially because it wasn’t like murder or something where you’re like, this is, you know, you’re like, well, this feels like a, you know, if the guys if the crux of it is like, he felt like it was quid pro quo. And and that gets dismissed, you’re like, well, what is the motivation to continue this? 

Brian Benjamin: I think it’s it’s very difficult for prosecutors once they move forward to bring a charge like this, particularly in such a high profile way. I don’t know if you remember, but there was this big press conference and and everybody was there and all I so when you bring these charges in such a in these kinds of ways, and you and you have a belief that that all those folks are criminals and so they doing something wrong over there, we got to go get them. When that’s the mindset and the mantra, you it is hard to let it go. Right? And especially when you have unbelievable power, I mean, the amount of power that federal prosecutors and particularly in particular, have, it is incredible to witness, right? I mean, I was in a case where I knew they didn’t have a case. I knew we could eventually win, but I had to deal with their incredible power. So, for example, they could have said, okay, let’s drag this out. Let’s subpoena something else. Let’s try to, you know, they just have so much power. So it’s hard for them to admit defeat. I mean, these guys have won, you know, what they know, people would tell me that, you know, who love me, said you should Brian you got to plead guilty. I mean, these guys win 97% of the time. I mean, like, you know, you it’s over. And so for them, letting go, I can only imagine when they’re used to winning and used to being the greatest on earth. It’s just, it’s not an easy thing for them to do. And I think that and that sort of like doggedness, we won’t let this go no matter what I think led them to make to to just hang on to something that they should have let go of a long time ago. Actually they shouldn’t have brought the charges, but especially when the witness died. It’s like, wait a minute, this guy had this idea in his mind, that’s your case. He’s dead. You got to let it go, right? I mean, you’re wasting because in the process, wasted, you know, a lot more resources, you know, their resources and ours. Right. And in the state of New York, if you’re an elected official and you were charged and you are either acquitted or the case was the case was dismissed, you are entitled to your legal fees, right? So all the legal fees that got incurred in addition, because of their keeping this going. That’s on them. [laugh]

DeRay Mckesson: I got that. Now, I’m sure this is both an annoying question and top of everybody’s mind, is have you thought about what comes next? 

Brian Benjamin: For me? 

DeRay Mckesson: You know, you, with you. Yeah. Yeah. You finally, like, you’re out of this. You are just not under the spell of that drama. 

Brian Benjamin: Right. 

DeRay Mckesson: And people don’t read. So they google your name and they see, you know, former lieutenant governor resigns, charged with bribery. The only reason they let it go is because of the man died like–

Brian Benjamin: That’s [?]–

DeRay Mckesson: How do you think about what comes next? 

Brian Benjamin: Well, you know, for me. I look at it like this. I was I went to I went to the train station to go to go to a certain destination. Right. While I was waiting for my train to come, someone came, pushed me from the back, shoved me onto the tracks. Okay. I’m now on the tracks and I got to make a decision. Do I get up and go chase the person who shoved me? Or do I get up and get back on the train with the original destination? Right? And so for me, DeRay, it’s I’m I’m focusing on what I meant to do before this chaos happened. Now I am informed because of this mess about how I move forward. But I’m not going to get dragged into being distracted. Right? So I was a public servant before this happened, and I will continue to be. Now there’s multiple ways to do that. And so I’m one of the things I’m looking to do is work. I’m working with a company that has a social purpose in the health care space, looking to to do that in a significant way. I’m very I’m very actively interested in this issue of mental health. And folks in our community who are are particularly not getting the care they need, are interacting with folks in the public on the trains. And there’s a lot of disruption. I don’t think law enforcement is the only solution for what’s happening on some of our some of our trains. We also need to have a mental health public health approach to that. And then also, you know, I do feel very strongly that we have to spend more time thinking about our our legal defense system. You know, this whole idea of exculpatory. Most people can’t afford to fight for their freedom. The amount of people when you hear these stats, all the federal prosecutors or prosecutors. 90% of the cases they win, etc. they aren’t 98% of guilty people. Okay. There is some discount to that. I don’t know how how what the number is, but there are people who are who are pleading guilty, who are, you know, who are getting bad legal representation, can’t afford legal representation, and they’re making decisions and it’s causing a lot of trauma and stress. Now, I do understand that people who are also guilty, but there are some who are not. They don’t have options. They can’t fight. I want to figure out how I could be of assistance to them, trying to help the other people who are innocent, helping them to get their freedom. 

DeRay Mckesson: You know, off of that topic. It is so interesting. You spent a career working on issues around Black and Brown people. You were not new to the issue of incarceration and criminal justice, right? That’s how we connected. 

Brian Benjamin: No. 

DeRay Mckesson: And I would say similarly with me in the police. And then I am, you know, I get sued by a police officer and I’m like, oh, it’s a whole different thing being in the middle of it. I’m like, ah like I knew it was sort of a mess. And then I’m in it and I’m like, you know, this officer is saying I hit him with a rock. And I just didn’t know that you could get this far in the legal process with no proof of the rock. I like literally this was a thing. I was like wow.

Brian Benjamin: [?]. DeRay imagine you being told so just so you think about this. My lawyers took all my phones, all my devices, went through everything and said, oh, Brian, you’re clean. Told the Governor’s council. We’ve gone through all of Brian’s information. Brian’s fine. We’re not concerned only to find out that I’m getting indicted because somebody thought in his mind that he got a legal grant. A grant that I was authorized to give a nonprofit, by the way, DeRay that I spent, that I spent so much time participating with. Giving out bookpacks, toys, school supplies, not just me. Every elected official, including the attorney general, including the Manhattan district attorney. I mean, this was not some shady guy in a corner somewhere doing all this stuff with this nonprofit. One of the nonprofits I was most involved with, of anything in my career, in my political career, to then have someone say, oh, well, this guy thought in his mind that when he got the grant, it was an exchange for cam– I mean, the the amount of shock and then DeRay to know I’m going to have to spend millions of dollars to try to protect my name as it relates to this issue. It is it’s who can compete with that. Like it’s it’s it’s it’s awful, man. It’s awful. And by the way, you know, when I was indicted and, you know, walking the streets, taking my girls to school, the amount of Black men who stopped me and cried and told me their stories and said, like, yo, you know, I used to do a little weed over here, but I got convicted for this thing over there, and I had to plead guilty to that over there, I mean, you know? And it’s all because people can’t afford to fight. I mean, that’s a lot of it, that’s a lot. And they can’t afford the time. It’s like it’s a, it’s not the fight. Think about your Supreme Court case. How long did that take? Right?

DeRay Mckesson: We’re still in it. They just filed an appeal. I’m back in it. I got charged in 2016. Or like, the [?]–

Brian Benjamin: You see, you see, you see what I’m saying? So so the average person, what do you think their life is like? They gotta get to work they like they, they have, they have everyday issues that are driving them second by second. And so it is just a really rough system on our community and what our community needs are people like us to fight for them, to believe in them, to say we, you know, we support you and not have them be like, you know, just laid out on the corner like they’re, like they like they have the plate, right? Or that they’re like there’s some cancer to our community when in a lot of cases, you know, people are being overcharged. There’s so much going on out here. And I just think we got to be more sympathetic and more supportive for our brothers and sisters who who who are kind of caught up in the struggle in a way where, quite frankly, you and I DeRay we have a little bit of a little bit of privilege because we can fight in a way that most people can’t. 

DeRay Mckesson: The other thing that I wanted to talk to you about is that and I I understood this much better because of the litigation I’m in, is you talk about the incredible power of the prosecutor. I think about the wild lack of accountability the prosecutors have. 

Brian Benjamin: Oh! 

DeRay Mckesson: Is that they upend your whole life, and then you’re like, so I, I this is a real example. I’m in a deposition because they take my cell phone and, you know, all my Google things and da da. Every text message [?]–

Brian Benjamin: Yes, I know. I know. Right. Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: And she. I’m in the deposition and she says, well, tell me about these texts you sent. And I go, okay, Doug read the text to me. And she doesn’t I’m not looking at anything. She doesn’t have it. And she says, well, you know, the text where you said that you were going to go kill those police officers da da da. And I go, well, I didn’t say that. I said, well, I know I didn’t text that like, that’s not we don’t even have to go back and forth. She’s like, no, I have the text right here. I go, well, show me. Like I’m positive I didn’t say that. She’s like, I don’t need to show you. And I’m like, oh, she can like, this is crazy. There’s no so like I can be annoyed by it. We move past that. She’s pissed. I’m not responding, but she’ll get to do it again. And I’m like, that is crazy. 

Brian Benjamin: [?] just so, you know, because I had become an indictment expert reader, okay? And what I do is I read indictments and I’m like, okay, where are the facts? Where are the opinions? They write these things like they’re all facts because they intersperse the facts with a whole lot of opinion, and then you then assume that the opinions are facts to make their case stronger. It’s all allegations, right? Unless they show you quotes. Name. Time. Email. Name. Time. Text. Video. Right. They making it up I mean, I mean, they’re you know, in a lot of cases it’s circumstantial. It’s all these different things that are not we don’t know. And that’s why there needs to be a trial or some kind of process for the defense to defend itself, but then to not to not to harp on the issue. I mean, we’re talking about the whole time, but then who can afford to get to that place? So you end up being guilty until you can afford to prove yourself innocent. And if you can’t afford to prove yourself innocent, you just you’re just out of luck, right? And this is the kind of stuff that happens all the time. All the time you’re told things, you’re like, what? I didn’t do that. I didn’t do that. And it’s just, you know, it’s tough. But they have all they have all they have all the they have all the resources. All right. They use public resources. And we’re and we have to defend ourselves privately. It’s not a fair fight. 

DeRay Mckesson: Yeah. You know, I’m happy we’re talking about this because, as you know, in New York City, the public defense is a system sort of cobbled together at the federal level it’s even more cobbled together and and very unclear. I’ll never forget one of the most illuminating meetings I had on the activist side about sentencing. I was meeting with some death penalty people, and they were making the argument that the death penalty is used every day in America. And I’m in the meeting like, I don’t get it right. I’m like, help me. And they were like, the threat of the death penalty is used to force people to plead to crimes they did not commit every day. And I’m like, this is how the game works, is because they they put 40 years in front of you and you’re like, I only got 40. I want to see my kids grow up. 

Brian Benjamin: Exactly. 

DeRay Mckesson: And da da da. And people are telling you, Brian, come on, just just say yes. And like, keep it moving. And you’re like– 

Brian Benjamin: Exactly. 

DeRay Mckesson: What a crazy decision to have to make. 

Brian Benjamin: Absolutely. And guess what? The the grand jury process, I think, needs reform. I think there’s one key thing that needs to happen. That because the prosecutors just present whatever they feel like presenting. Um. And they and by the way, they can present things that aren’t even admissible in even admissible in court. So they could present things to a grand jury to get the indictment that they can’t even use for the conviction. Um. But there needs to be an opportunity for the grand jury that really means well for them to be able to hear from the defense attorney of the person who they’re about to who they’re about to possibly indict. Understanding that the indictment is the conviction in 97%. Right. But they’re we need to bring we need to practically understand just the power that the the power dynamics here and allow for the defense attorneys to uh go to, um uh to grand jury meetings and have those [?] ask them questions that are that are tied to why they would indict someone. And see if there’s an answer. And if there’s an answer that is compelling, that will allow them to push back better on the prosecutors and, and and maybe we’ll have a better, a better functioning system because the, the the the the grand jury, which is, which are which are the ones that are make they’re the ones who are technically making the decisions, but they’re really getting all their information from the prosecutor. So who’s really making the decisions? But those people can be more empowered to do their role more effectively. Because for most people, the indictment is the conviction. You can’t separate the two. This is not some process where everyone’s getting fair, open hearings. Everyone’s being able to attend themselves equally. It’s absolutely false, it’s a farce, and then, you know, the people who are in the prosecution business, they love to say this oh innocent until proven guilty. These are only allegations. They know good and well most people can’t even fight the but the person who can fight is Donald Trump, right? So we watch people like him just just, I mean, make a mockery of the system because he has enormous resources. If he had no resources, he would have been. He would have been buried under every jail already. But because he has numerous resources and now enormous power, enormous strength. He was able to run, run rampant over these guys. And so then we have the system well wait a minute. This is not fair. Imagine me sitting at home, DeRay indicted on campaign contributions for a grant that someone made up in his mind. And I’m watching Donald Trump just on TV every day, just, you know, moving and shaking and talking and, you know, oh, you know, oh, well, there’s a rape thing here, and there’s this there, this thing’s like oh yeah whatever. I mean, it’s it’s offensive. And then people saying, wait a minute, we’re not living in a fair society here. 

DeRay Mckesson: You know, I don’t know what you plan to do afterwards, like, long term. But, you know, the criminal justice space needs way more people who actually understand sort of the details. I will tell you, we do this work across the country and the number of legislators who only know what the police tell them. 

Brian Benjamin: Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: Only know what the prosecutors say, which is a lot of people and it’s well meaning, I don’t even say that because I think they’re bad people. 

Brian Benjamin: Yeah yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: But there’s something very different when your name is on that, that thing and you’re like, oh, this is you’re like, you know, I see how people end up in prison for a really long time or a short time, because a day is long enough for things that just didn’t happen, you know. 

Brian Benjamin: And by the way, when you get indicted, it’s not just you who’s indicted, it’s your family. It’s your friends. Everyone who’s invested in you. It’s your children. Um. You know, people’s uh parents, like my mom didn’t sleep for months. From April to December. She couldn’t get a good night’s sleep. There are people whose parents pass away because their their hearts um they’re just devastated by this stuff. This is not just this is a this is a family issue. Um. And it really is ravaging our community there are there are many men who don’t come to church because they’re feeling shame and guilt, not just men, I mean people in general who feel shame and guilt. This is a very. You feel so much shame when you even if you didn’t do it. And that’s  the thing that’s crazy. I’m saying to myself I didn’t do this. And I’m feeling like. I’m feeling like I’m feeling like a criminal. And I know I’m not one. It’s just wild. Um. [?]

DeRay Mckesson: And then you see the Trumps who did it all, did it all and worse. And they ain’t got an ounce of shame in the world. 

Brian Benjamin: Don’t could care less. No, no worries in the world. And so you know what? I’m a run for president. So what? What you gonna do about it? Meanwhile, let a Black Democrat. You saw what happened to Andrew Gillum. [?] Black Democrat even consider trying to run for city council after being after being indicted on something that’s even questionable, and no one’s trying to hear it. So it’s it’s a crazy time and hopefully uh it’ll get better, but I think it’ll get better because what more of us are are aware and and you know, you got you, you you got to get people the benefit of the doubt. Look we if we boo, if we say innocent until proven guilty, we need to really be about that and give people the chance to um to defend themselves and and understand that most people can’t afford to defend themselves. So there’s a lot of there’s a lot that’s tied into that. We’ve got to be more nuanced and layered and, and um thoughtful around this criminal justice system, the systemic issues that are really harming those who are poor um and, and, and have some sympathy and empathy towards, towards people going through this. 

DeRay Mckesson: Do you are you running for office in 2025? 

Brian Benjamin: I am not. Um. I’m going to focus on, you know, as you can imagine, there have been significant legal uh issues in terms of fees, in terms of emotion. I need some time to just kind of settle, do some other things, make a difference in other ways. But I but I don’t rule out in the future if uh if you know if opportunities are there, I’ll definitely. I’ll definitely be open to it. 

DeRay Mckesson: And uh would you work in the government? So like, say, say there’s a mayor. The next mayor is um, you know, a little saner than this one. And and they’re like, hey, will you come run a department or be a something? Would you work inside again? 

Brian Benjamin: Um. I, I would, but I’m not in a rush to do so. So I’m, I’m open to those things. But you know what I am open to um is um I can be a private citizen who’s involved in particular things. Right. So let’s assume there’s something that I can serve and participate in that is um, you know, ad hoc or it’s or it’s a board or something like that. Right. I can do it. But I’m just doing this thing while I’m still being a privacy and focusing on myself. I mean, when giving myself fully to public service is it’s it’s a lot. Um. And I know when I do that, it’s all I’m all in. And that’s how I was. And so I’m not ready for that decision, but I am. I can be involved. A part of conversations, you know, um uh and be a part of the public process. I know a lot of the players I talked to a number of them now, um but to actually be fully 100% ten toes down uh in that space, um it’s going to take me some time before I can do that again.

DeRay Mckesson: Got it. Well, what um what do you want people to think about now that they got to hear your voice um and you are no longer in this wild legal process? What’s your advice to people? What do you want people to take away from this? Uh. Yeah. 

Brian Benjamin: I think um if I’m being 1,000% candid with you, I used to believe anything I heard. Right.  Federal prosecutors come and say so-and-so did this or so-and-so did that a, I, you know, I I gave the benefit of the doubt to the to the accuser. And um I was very active on criminal justice reform, as you know, because I did want to have I didn’t want our people to have things like financial issues um stop them. And and also when people were transitioning back, with parole reform, etc., I felt very strongly about let’s not over sentence over criminalize. Um. But I do think, um you know, we should, particularly with those around as friends, family, loved ones, we should be sympathetic um to people who are going through these kinds of situations, because the one thing I have I do recognize is there’s a lot of hypocrisy out here. Uh. You know, I’ve watched Republicans who I’ve known, who talk about law enforcement and family values and they and they Trump’s biggest supporter. Okay, so there’s a lot going on out here and we got to take care of our own. And so for me, I just you know, I saw people who were going through things, um being accused of things and I and I talk to them and try to be supportive because I just know how much it’s important, how important it is for me to feel like I was heard and for a lot of for a lot of three years, I wasn’t heard. No one cared. People thought I did it. And now, with that hurt. Um. And so I want to be able to be there for other people. But I think we all should have more of a open mind and um and not feel like, oh, well some, something this person didn’t act. So then they should be shamed or thrown away or cast aside. And, you know, people make mistakes. A lot of people who make mistakes who never get caught. That don’t mean that they haven’t made mistakes. Uh. So I just think that we should be more forgiving, more understanding, and more supportive of our own, particularly our Black men who, who, who, are going through hell. Um. I can’t tell you how many brothers stopped me. And guys who would crack me in two and two seconds, just crying in my arms because they felt like I’m a sympathetic voice for them. Because they know what I’ve gone through and I mean even at least close to them. And I say to myself, if this didn’t happen to me, they wouldn’t be talking to me like this. And so what is it about how I was behaving before this happened to me that created the distance to have people feel like I’m not someone they can access in these in these ways, which are very profound and important and deep. And so I just want us all to be more understanding, more communicative, more loving uh to our to our family members and folks in our community who are, who, who are, who are dealing with the criminal justice system, rightly or wrongly, or both. 

DeRay Mckesson: Boom. Yeah. And I and you the other message I really took away from this is a reminder about the evenness that is required that is not there in the system that like. If the prosecutors get a ton of power than the only way to make it fair is that there actually is adequate defense. 

Brian Benjamin: 100%. 

DeRay Mckesson: If defense actually means real defense for rich people only. 

Brian Benjamin: Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: Then that’s not that’s not defense. And, you know, you you these issues came to you as a legislator. People talk about the–

Brian Benjamin: That’s right. 

DeRay Mckesson: –underfunding of public defenders and da da da and it sort of people dismiss it as complaining. They’re like, well, and da da da da da. And it is so easy to do that until you actually see the power of the prosecutor and you’re like, this is nuts. 

Brian Benjamin: It’s nuts. We cannot have we cannot have the system we claim we want to have. If there’s not an adequate public defender system, if there’s not adequate resources for defense, for the [?], for those and by the way, when you got to spend seven figures on legal fees. [?] of I don’t know. That that includes a lot of the middle class. Okay. So we we’ve got to be realistic here around what it costs to have adequate defense. It’s not just have some attorney who said, okay, I’ll do this for you and get you to trial. That’s not defense. Adequate defense is having folks who will spend the time to really figure out what the right legal strategies are, put the case together, and really fight for you in court. So that your so that you can be represented to the to the fullness of what you need to a jury who, by the way, in most cases is already being told that your a criminal, already being told that you are someone who why are you sitting there if the prosecutors don’t have something? You see what I’m saying? So you were already coming in as a defendant? Yeah, yeah. And a disadvantage. How do we make sure that that person gets the right defense? And how do we make sure that’s the cases that shouldn’t even be brought aren’t brought? I think those those are the two key pieces. Um. And if we do that, we will at least get to a better system where we actually are closer to our motto that you’re innocent until proven guilty. Right now, we are so far from that. It’s just some phrase people use to make themselves feels good and it’s a complete joke. 

DeRay Mckesson: Boom. Well, we consider you a friend of the pod. Can’t wait to have you back. Is there a place that people can follow you? Is it Twitter or Instagram? Is it? 

Brian Benjamin: Yeah. Absolutely. You know, I am, I’m very, I’m very easy to find um I’m at @BrianBenjaminNY. Uh. Please. You know, follow me. I’m on Twitter and on Instagram. And um you know, I am just just so glad to be back. And and people could DM me or, you know, send me messages. I definitely want to talk to folks who either are activists, who want to be a part of dealing with the solution, or people who have just gone through things and want to talk to someone who’s successfully made it through. Uh. I want to be a resource for folks. [music break]

DeRay Mckesson: Well that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app and we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger, and Myles E. Johnson. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.