Don't Get It Twisted: Being A Psychopath vs Sociopath 101: | Crooked Media
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September 09, 2022
Don't Get It Twisted: Being A Psychopath vs Sociopath 101:

In This Episode

Psychopath and Sociopath are terms used to describe people in our everyday conversations, but are we using the terms correctly? Do you really know the difference between them? The ladies of Imani State are taking a  deeper look into the lives of a psycho and sociopath.

We would love to hear from you! Please email us at with all your questions and comments!




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Dr. Imani Walker: Welcome to Imani State Of Mind. I’m Dr. Imani. 


MegScoop Thomas: And I’m MegScoop. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Hi! 


MegScoop Thomas: Hi! 


Dr. Imani Walker: First of all, first of all, before we get to anything, tell me how Jamaica was. How was your trip to Jamaica? 


MegScoop Thomas: Girl. I almost didn’t come back. Okay. Um. You almost didn’t– 


Dr. Imani Walker: I bet. 


MegScoop Thomas: –see me today. It was so beautiful. 


MegScoop Thomas: I bet. 


MegScoop Thomas: The water is beautiful. The food is beautiful. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: The people are beautiful. Everything was just amazing. And I met my quota of at least two frozen drinks a day. So.


Dr. Imani Walker: Nice. 


MegScoop Thomas: Piña colada. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Nice. 


MegScoop Thomas: You know, rum punch, everything. It was great. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes. Yes. No, that’s um. Did you, not that’s frozen. But did you happen to try like the rum cream? 


MegScoop Thomas: I think I had it inside of a drink. Like it was like not by itself. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: But it was good. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. [indistinct]


MegScoop Thomas: I had a lot of different type of rums. Everything was good to me. Okay. [laughter] And then also I was eating like, I’m really big on eating like local fruit. So. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: I was eating what Guinep? Um do you know what Guinep is?


Dr. Imani Walker: Guinep? 


MegScoop Thomas: Guinep. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, Guinep. 


MegScoop Thomas: Guinep. Okay. And then. Um. Oh, I love soursop. 


Dr. Imani Walker: They’re like little citrus fruits?


MegScoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: I was like. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay, soursop is my favorite fruit– 


MegScoop Thomas: Oh. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –In the whole world. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yes! High five!


Dr. Imani Walker: I love soursop. 


MegScoop Thomas: Ugh, it’s so good right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Ugh. 


MegScoop Thomas: It’s so. And my friend– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Soursop is so good. 


MegScoop Thomas: And my friends were being so like like they’re like I–


Dr. Imani Walker: Ugh. What is that.


MegScoop Thomas: eat by sight, they’re very they’re those kind of people. And then I have like one or two friends that are, like, adventurous, like me. So of course, my friends were just all looking at me, like, tearing up this soursop I’m talking about. [making slurping sounds] And they’re just like I don’t know what to think about–


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. Because it’s good as hell. 


MegScoop Thomas: It’s so good, right? It’s so good. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s so good right.  


MegScoop Thomas: And there’s nothing– 


Dr. Imani Walker: No that kills me. 


MegScoop Thomas: And they’re like what does it taste like? I said, there’s nothing that tastes like this. There’s no, I cannot explain the good because it’s, like, creamy, but it’s like it’s just so– 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s creamy. 


MegScoop Thomas: There’s nothing that really like compares. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And tart and like, yeah, it’s creamy and tart, but it’s like it’s–


MegScoop Thomas: Juicy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Creamy without like the. Yeah, it’s amazing. The seeds are super big um for those of you guys out there, you listeners who know about the just amazing, amazingness of soursop, like you can ignore this, but for those of you who don’t know what soursop is. It’s basically this big. It’s like a green fruit that kind of looks like it’s kind of shaped like an amoeba or like a paramecium, [laughter] if you guys remember, like, you know, high school grade school biology. Um. But it’s it’s like it has this really thin green skin. And when you open it, the flesh is white and the seeds are huge– Like, they’re really like maybe the size of, like, I have long fingernails, like, I have acrylic nails, so, like, maybe the size of, like my fingernail and they’re big. Like, you can’t swallow them. You can’t, like, you know, bite on it. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like it is. They’re huge. But it’s just this. It’s like eating, like, natural custard. It’s so it’s just it’s and it’s tart and it’s sweet and it’s just. It’s so good anyway. 


MegScoop Thomas: So good. I don’t understand why it’s so good. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s so good. 


MegScoop Thomas: And it’s so good for you as well. I mean, people eat like soursop leaves. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: And teas. It’s supposed to have all these, like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: –Cancer fighting agents.


Dr. Imani Walker: Tea. Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: It’s just so good. It’s so yummy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: So I was living my best life. Okay, eating all the stuff that everybody was like what is that? What I’ve never had that? I was like, well it’s your time to try boo. Okay? It was great. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: We had a photoshoot. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No that’s um. 


MegScoop Thomas: A friends photo shoot. We. I mean, it was it was lovely. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Nice. 


MegScoop Thomas: And I’m so sad I had to come back girl. I wasn’t and I was pumping too okay. I was still pumping breast milk the whole trip. And I still had a great time. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh my God. That’s awesome. Every time I want to say maybe like all of the times I’ve been to Jamaica minus two times, I’ve extended my stay. 


MegScoop Thomas: Oh, really? See? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, yeah. Part cause part of it is. And this is going to sound terrible. But I guess anybody who is Jamaican or like Jamerican might understand. I have family there. And so in most cases, like, I won’t tell anybody, which is a really terrible thing of me to do, but I just. I just love going there and I just want to just like, you know, just, like, chillax while I’m there. So. 


MegScoop Thomas: Oh, yeah it’s great. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Um. I will see family sometimes when I go there, but uh most cases I won’t, cause I’m a terrible– 


MegScoop Thomas: See. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Um relative. Yeah.


MegScoop Thomas: I’m not mad at you either. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But I’m glad you had such a good time. 


MegScoop Thomas: Thank you Girl. Thank you.


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. No, it was. Jamaica’s everything. I’m so glad you had fun. And now that you’re back, you get to see all your kids. Well, not all your kids, but both your kids– 


MegScoop Thomas: And I–


Dr. Imani Walker: And that’s nice. 


MegScoop Thomas: And I missed them. But I also was like, ehh I could have stayed a little longer. [laughing]


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. Right. Like a couple of days. No I feel you. I hear you. So now that you’re back, um I wanted to just kind of pick your brain a little bit, because the last episode we were talking about Aries Spears. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Who came out of the woodwork for like for no reason, just he decided to just I don’t know. I wouldn’t say grace himself with our presence, but he just, like, you know, busted down the door like a Kool-Aid Man trying to talk shit about Lizzo and how she look when he look, you know, just a whole mess. But so did you hear about this whole situation with Aries Spears and Tiffany Haddish? 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And yeah. So what did like.


MegScoop Thomas: Okay so give your take on the story and then I’m going to tell you what I think about it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. So last week I read something some some it was like a blind item. So I clicked on it and the story that I read. Let me see what’s what’s today. So let’s say maybe Thursday of last week. I read the story and it was saying how there was this this woman who had two kids who are under the age of 18 and that she was suing Tiffany Haddish and Aries Spears, but that she had, I guess, attempted to sue them previously or attempted to sue maybe some other stars previously. And it was thrown out repeatedly, like, I think up to ten times. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So I knew a little bit about how this woman was claiming that her kids were being groomed by Tiffany Haddish and Aries Spears. And I read it. But the angle that this story took uh was basically, well, this is somebody who’s very um litigious. So I was like, All right, fine. Like, I moved on with my life. And then over the weekend, more and more stuff came out. And then I read this article that seemed to be the most comprehensive. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And that and it was I was like, ahh this is I mean, whether the mom is litigious or not, the claim that the mother is making and the claim that the then underage children are making is really kind of wild. And I don’t know. This. I mean the story is I’m sure a lot of you guys have heard it already that are listening, but that there was supposed to be a skit that was going to be on the HBO, uh the former HBO show Funny or Die, that I used to watch all the time because it was just crazy and it was really funny, but Funny or Die. Like they really push envelopes. They push as many envelopes as possible. And this particular skit was supposed to be with Aries Spears and Tiffany Haddish. And it was I think it was quoted like through the. It was titled, Through the Eyes of a Pedophile, which is already like. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Ehhh. 


MegScoop Thomas: I’d stay away from that. [laugh]


Dr. Imani Walker: Alright. Yeah. Like like there’s so many things that Funny or Die, like, pushes that that it’s really like this. Like, this is crazy. But that to me, I’m not Tiffany Haddish or Aries Spears, but it just seemed like, especially for Tiffany Haddish, something like that could be career ending based upon where she is in her career. Yeah, it’s definitely not something that I would have wanted to sign on to. I am aware that comedians have to go places that are very controversial and a bit sketchy, and we laugh at things that are controversial and sketchy. But this just seems to be kind of a kind of ick. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So. Okay, so so I’m interested in to what. Like what did what did you read about it? How did. Like what? How do you feel about it? 


MegScoop Thomas: Well, I’m with you. I think there’s, you know, me working in the comedy space. I will tell you, like there are times when you push the envelope. Right. And you have to deal with the consequences of those things. But I do believe even in comedy, there’s just some things that should just be. Like you just– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Left. 


MegScoop Thomas: Just don’t do. Right. Let’s not talk about being a pedophile, because usually in those skits, a child, a child has to be involved. Right? Unless you just do– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: –A different angle. And to me, that just. Even for a child actor, like, they should not be subjected to anything that has to do with a pedophile, in my opinion. And so. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: That just is to me isn’t done in poor taste. Now. I always you know, I don’t think anyone is past um doing something to children like I. That’s how I operate with my own children. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: I don’t care if you’re in my family and I’ve known you forever. I don’t care if you’re my best friend. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Exactly. 


MegScoop Thomas: To me, anybody can be a predator. So could this be true? Possibly. We don’t know. We weren’t there. Right. But at the same time, like. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Mm. 


MegScoop Thomas: Doesn’t seem like it could be. But you don’t know. You never know. So to me, you you just have to take these kind of allegations very seriously. And– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Mm hmm. 


MegScoop Thomas: I mean that I hope the truth comes out. If it if this is the truth, then you’ve got to deal with the consequences that’s what you get. You just don’t mess with children. That’s point blank. Point blank period. But if it isn’t true, I hope that they’re able to clear their names, because I would hate for this to ruin their careers because it will. I mean, I don’t care about Aries Spears. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: Because he deserve whatever he get, but. But Tiffany Haddish. I love her. [laughter]


Dr. Imani Walker: Right, right, right, right.


MegScoop Thomas: He talked about Lizzo so I don’t have no. I don’t. I don’t. He ain’t on my good list. But as far as Tiffany Haddish, like I love her. I’ve interviewed her before. She’s really like a genuine person. So I hope it’s not true that she’s a pedophile or, you know, on the child molester scale. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. For real. 


MegScoop Thomas: She could be. I don’t know, but I hope it’s not true. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. And this is all coming, you know, on the heels of the I’m trying to find the article because I cannot remember this man’s name, but the man who I guess used to run Nickelodeon, he initially was a writer for Nickelodeon and then started producing Nickelodeon shows, Dan Schneider. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: He was doing some really skeevy things as far as like writing in jokes into Nickelodeon shows that were very adult centric. So the one particular article I read, it had to do with Jamie Spears getting slimed, but the slime wasn’t green. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right, yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: If you know what I mean. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: The slime was white and they kept putting it like on her face. And then the shot that they used was the one of it being, I guess, up like thrown at her forehead. So it dripped down. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah like dripped down towards her mouth. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And there were remarks. 


MegScoop Thomas: It’s just disgusting. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes. So there were yes gross And so there were remarks on the set by some of, you know, the child actors, like the male child actors like oh, yeah, um you know, like that’s the cumshot. And so that’s what they uh that’s the that’s the one they used. 


MegScoop Thomas: And while that’s like disgusting it’s more disgusting to me because parents have to be or guardians, somebody some legal guardian. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Her mom was there. 


MegScoop Thomas: Then that’s what I’m saying. So if you see these things. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Her mom was there. 


MegScoop Thomas: If you see these things.


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: I wish somebody would do that to my daughter on set and say we’re keeping– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Mm hmm. 


MegScoop Thomas: –That shot. No, no the F you not keeping that shot. We’re going to redo that because you’re– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: So it’s every parent’s responsibility. So I’m like, yeah, he’s probably a predator. But you got to as a parent, you got to think everybody’s a predator. So you can’t just be like, okay, well, we want to be famous, so you’re just going to have to deal with this cumshot Jamie Lynn Spears who’s under age. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: That’s ridiculous. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. No, it’s yeah, it was really gross. Really gross. And apparently, you know, we know about Britney Spears um her issues and her unfortunate incident as far as her being placed on the wrong type of conservatorship, as far as her mental illness is concerned, is concerned. She was uh placed on a conservatorship that gave her father um the right to manage every aspect of her life, including her money, including, you know, how like she had to be, she had to be witnessed getting dressed. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mmm hm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: By like a third party. It’s crazy. But in any case, these people really like, you know, they they got it all wrong. They got it twisted. Speaking of getting it twisted this month, we are not getting it twisted on Imani State Of Mind because the series our series for September Don’t get It Twisted. We’re breaking down so many myths of well-known disorders. Next up in the series is Psychopaths versus Sociopaths. And that is what we’re going to be doing, our deep dive topic on today. And I just want to remind everybody out there who’s listening, if you’re loving the show, please let us know by rating the show on your favorite podcast app. So of course, we have so much to talk about, um so let’s get the show started. [music break] Okay. We want to know what’s on your mind. What are you struggling with? What are you dealing with? We love giving our professional and not so professional advice. 


MegScoop Thomas: That’s right. So it’s time for Ask Dr. Imani anything. Our first letter comes from Bethany, and here’s what she had to say. Hey, ladies. I don’t need any diagnosis, but I do need some good girlfriend advice today. I’ve been talking to a guy for about five years now. It’s a long distance thing, but when we’re in person, it’s electric. We can sit and talk for hours about our problems in life. I know he’s the one, but there’s only one tiny problem. We are so toxic. He will ghost for weeks at a time, then hit me up like nothing is wrong with disappearing. He once told me he was coming to see me on a Sunday. Well, Sunday came around. No call, no show. He then called me that Wednesday, like he didn’t just stand me up that Sunday. We will then getting into arguments all the time about him disappearing and I will block him from my phone and social media. Eventually I’ll unblock him and he’s right back on my phone telling me what I want to hear. He recently joked that we are so toxic and I love it. Well, I don’t love it and I want something healthy and real with him. I recently asked him why we just don’t go all in and be in a relationship, and he says he doesn’t want to bring me down with all he has going on. And in the next sentence, tell me he is so in love with me. I am torn on what to do with this toxic but oh so fine man of mine. [spitting laughter]


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. Okay. So. All right. Who is this from? 


MegScoop Thomas: Bethany. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Bethany. Okay. I don’t know Meg, go first. You go first. [laughing] You go first.


MegScoop Thomas: I just. Okay. Bethany. The good girlfriend advice. Girl, you’re toxic, too. Okay. You’re saying you don’t want anything toxic, but you’re accepting the toxicity that he that’s going on. You know, I will tell you, I’ve been in a lot of long distance relationships. They only work if you have an end date. Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Same. 


MegScoop Thomas: You got to go. Hey, this is what we’re doing. This is how long we’re doing it for. This is the consistency of how often we’ll see each other. And you got to stick to it. If you don’t have that, you have nothing. So from this letter, y’all got nothing. Five years of a hot nothing. And he’s ghosting you for weeks. You don’t know what he’s doing. He probably has a family. He might have a whole family. [laughter]


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. Right. Like for real. Like he got a whole, like, family or families. This man sounds. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt you. Sorry. Sorry. This man sounds wild. 


MegScoop Thomas: No, but I’m saying if you. If you. [sigh] I think you got to be honest with what it is that you want Bethany, do you want to be in a healthy relationship? If so, this ain’t it. Run. D– block his number. Don’t ever unblock it. Okay. Block his number. Throw away your phone. Get a new phone so that you can’t get the number back like it’s that serious. However, if you’re like, that’s this is what this is. This man shows up sometime. He’s gone sometime. I have a great time when I talk to him, then that’s what it needs to be. And stop trying to force a relationship because it’s one or the other in this situation. So which one do you really want? Do you just want somebody to spend some time with because you know we’ve all done it. You just got somebody as a as a filler or do you really want something serious? It ain’t, it ain’t him boo. It ain’t him Bethany girl. You got to keep going. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. Right, right. Exactly. Um. Okay, Bethany. So here’s what I’ll say. I agree with everything that Megan said. I’m sure that by now you’re used to our advice and the fact that, you know, it’s I mean, it’s the advice is very honest. I mean, look, you wouldn’t have written in if you didn’t know what you were going to be getting. But I always say, I swear, like every time we have listener letters, I’m like, the answer is in your letter. Like, you don’t need a diagnosis, but you need advice. You used the word. Let me. Let me. Let me count. You used the word toxic. One, two– 


MegScoop Thomas: –Three. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Three times. You used the word toxic three times in the span of literally it’s a paragraph. So he’s toxic. And I do understand that. I mean, I’ve been with toxic people. I’ve been with people in long distance relationships. I certainly am not perfect. But there, you have to admit to yourself that there is something about this that you find intriguing, or at least like about this. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It may be the fact that this is somebody who you can, quote unquote, “be with” and still live your life. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yep. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like like when you’re in a relationship, you have to compromise like that person. I’m not saying that they’re always in your face. You may not be living with them, but this is still someone who you consider on a day to day, like, oh, what do you want to do later? What do you want to eat later? When am I going to see you? 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Just stuff like that. Like this. You have a pen pal, basically. [laughter] 


MegScoop Thomas: A pen pal. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I mean, you do. Like she does. Like you have. Yeah. You have a pen pal. Like, this isn’t. This really isn’t a relationship. It’s more so it’s somebody that you chat with. But it’s not this. I wouldn’t consider this to be a relationship. I wouldn’t consider you all be to be boyfriend or girlfriend. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Because he’s ghosting you for weeks at a time. Like that’s crazy.


MegScoop Thomas: To be with his family, his wife and 2.5 kids. White picket fence, a dog. [laughing]


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. Exactly. And girl. Listen, he may be fine, but like, look, as somebody who and I think I’ve admitted this on this show, as somebody who’s like at one point in my life, like my my initial attraction and and like main reason for keeping somebody around was like, well, he’s nice and he’s cute. That’s not enough.


MegScoop Thomas: It’s not, it’s not. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like it’s not enough. Like, it’s there’s so many cute. Listen. There’s so many cute, dumb people out there. There’s so many cute toxic people out there. Like, I mean, Bethany, you I put to you like this, you can either it’s really up to you. If you’re fine with having autonomy in your life, knowing that there’s also someone else who’s operating with the same level or maybe, you know, worse autonomy, stay. If you want to consider yourself to be a girlfriend and be kind of delusional about it. Stay. If you are ready to basically face the truth, then you need to. I mean, honestly, you could have a conversation with him, but the best part about all this is that you can just block him and go on with your life. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yup. No explanation needed. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And it. No explanation. And then you don’t even you don’t even have to deal with him. So, you know, that’s that’s what I would do. Yeah. [?] stay with him if you want to, you know, if you want to like have your own autonomy and be delusional. But if you really want to be, you know, real. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Then block him and just keep keep moving. 


MegScoop Thomas: And I was just laughing because her last line is, I am torn on what to do with this toxic but oh so fine man of mine. Girl, that’s not your man. He’s for the streets. 


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s not your man. [laughter] Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: He’s. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: That. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah so. 


MegScoop Thomas: My man is your man and like yeah, all of that. That SZA said. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Ahh! My man is your man and your man is [?]– [squeals] Exactly. Exactly. Okay, so we’re going to move on to our next letter. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yes. And it comes from a listener by the name of LaTavia. She says, What’s up, y’all? Okay, I need that professional advice you guys are always talking about, because what I really want to do might get me fired. My supervisor is psycho. She has mad anxiety and paranoia about everything. My supervisor is so afraid of getting in trouble or fired by our higher ups. So every task she gives my team is of urgent importance. She micromanages to the highest degree and sets unrealistic expectations for my team. Since we work remotely. She will call my phone and just want to sit on the phone to hear me typing and can get her updates in real time. I work in a creative space and it’s becoming hard to do my job with her virtually breathing down my neck every 2 seconds. When I tell you all my nerves are getting bad from this lady, is it possible to develop anxiety from working with someone with high anxiety and paranoia? When I see her calling my phone or see a text pop up, my chest gets tight and I am immediately annoyed and anxious. How do I tell my supervisor for the sake of my mental health she is going to have to calm the fuck down without getting my ass fired. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. This is a great question. Um. I don’t know if your name is La’tavia or LaTavia. I’m a call you LaTavia for the benefit of all you Destiny’s Child um fans out there. But LaTavia, okay. I have a friend who recently went through, like, legit the exact same thing. She knew she was like, listen, she’s like, I’m leaving like this. She had she got a brand new boss. It just so happened. So my friend is Black. She’s she’s a Black female. Her boss, um her new boss also is a Black woman. And I don’t know if it was a situation of whether this woman, you know, had issues. I mean, she definitely seemed anxious um and she definitely seemed like, you know, I got to be, you know, like we talked about this on previous shows. And just as being Black folks, like, we always feel that we have to be. Not. Not even twice as good. We have to be, like, ten times better than, like, a white counterpart. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Because we. There’s so much pressure placed upon us and especially as a woman. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So um my friend was like, I got to get out of here. She did what she had to do. She went to HR, she, you know, went to, um I think, the supervisor above her supervisor. And they were like, you know, just just wait it out. You know, it might be just be like, you know, some new job jitters. She left and she’s really, really happy. Um. What I would say to you is, you know, and I said this before about when another listener wrote in with like a work situation, you might want to go to HR um just because this this is micromanagement to a degree that is very it’s very toxic not to keep throwing the word toxic around. But this is. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like like this isn’t cool. I think that you should definitely if you haven’t already, like put out feelers, start applying to other jobs because this, you wrote when I see her calling my phone or see a text pop up, my chest gets tight and I’m immediately annoyed and anxious. That’s not healthy. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And you don’t have to put yourself through that for the sake of a check. I mean, you do need money, don’t get me wrong. But there are other ways to make money which can include doing the same job you have right now, just not being micromanaged by somebody who is incredibly, incredibly anxious. So, you know, do your best to not get fired. You’re not going to be able to tell her to calm the fuck down, but you can do what’s best for you. So.


MegScoop Thomas: I’m gonna tell you. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Um. yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: When I when I read this, I was like, Oooh, this was me some years ago. At a. [laugh] 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh no! 


MegScoop Thomas: I had a boss that was like this. His his so and there was no HR. So it was a small, very small, you know, creative business. No, HR, the CEO top dog was my boss. And he I remember I had this motorcycle ringtone for him. Right. Special ringtone. Every time I heard that motorcycle ringtone on my phone, same thing. My chest would get tight. I’d start, like, sweating a little bit, like, [deep breathing sounds] okay, get a little anxiety. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh no. 


MegScoop Thomas: [?] palms would get a little sweaty, you know? And then I’d answer the phone. To this day, I can’t have no motorcycle ringtone on my phone. It’d just it PT. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh my God. 


MegScoop Thomas: PTSD. What I realized was that during that time in my life, I was not strong enough mentally. I was not confident enough in myself to say, to tell him, don’t call me between these hours and these hours looking for work to get done, don’t you know, ask for this or this? Don’t micromanage. I was not confident enough to say that. I realize now, had I said those things, I would have, he still would have hired or he wouldn’t have fired me because I was doing really good work for him, but I didn’t have enough confidence in myself. In the event that he did decide to fire me had I said all those things. I would have been fine and I wouldn’t have had so much anxiety and aversion to a motorcycle ringtone to this day. So I say–


Dr. Imani Walker: Girl. 


MegScoop Thomas: –All that to say, it’s not worth it. It’s not worth it. But before, you know, I would say before you go apply, because I don’t know if this supervisor is like cool. You don’t either because you didn’t tell us. You may want to have a conversation and say, I, you know, before you have a conversation, chat yourself up. I’m smart, I’m strong. I can. I am very employable. I have wonderful skills. And then go talk to her or him and say, hey supervisor. Oh yeah, you say she’s a she. Hey, supervisor, these are a list of things that you been doing that have been stunting my work and this is what I need you to do instead of. So just don’t tell her the things she’s doing bad. Tell her what to do instead. Instead of staying on the phone micromanaging me, maybe you can do x, y, z and then say it– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Exactly. 


MegScoop Thomas: As nice as possible. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes. 


MegScoop Thomas: You may you may need to type it up and send it to an email. I don’t know either way. Do that first and then deal with whatever those consequences are, whether it be she decides she wants to terminate you or she may change and say, you’re right. Let me calm down and do better. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Yeah. No, I honestly, I think that’s really good advice. Um. I am somebody who loves the word no. [laugh] Even before like memes came out and it was like, you know, no is a complete sentence. I was like, I’ve been no. I’ve been knowing that no was a complete silence. Like, when I say no I mean that shit, like get out of my face. Um. But with that– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Being said, I think that’s I think that’s a good I think that’s really good advice that you gave her. That you gave LaTavia. Um. You know, you can say something like, you know, instead of you calling me and cause and listening to me type because quite honestly, I could just be, you know, just clacking away like this [making clacking noises with nails] on my computer and not doing anything. How about we create a spreadsheet with little checkboxes, and when things are done, you can go and see, when they’re done. 


MegScoop Thomas: And if she says no. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So that’s. 


MegScoop Thomas: I would say if she says no. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: She still needs to hear you. Clack, clack, clacking away, girl, there’s a sound effect for that on YouTube. So just play that and then go about your business. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, my god. True. That’s true. That’s true. That is. That is true. Okay, so, so I think yeah, I think that we gave great advice. I think you gave some really good advice with LaTavia. 


MegScoop Thomas: Aw. Thank you. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Thank you, Bethany. Yeah. And again, thank you LaTavia for submitting your questions. I hope we were able to help you guys. 


MegScoop Thomas: If you have a question or problem centered around your mental health and you want some of our wonderful sister girl advice, please send your emails to You can also text or leave us a voicemail at 818-252-9462. We cannot wait to hear from you. Send us, send us your questions. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes. Yes. Now, listen, there’s something that I noticed. Um, LaTavia in her letter had, she used the word psycho. And I think this is a great example of how we all use psychological terms sometimes to describe people, but we really don’t take the time to know what the term actually means. I’ve heard a lot of people use sociopath and psychopath interchangeably. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And they use them incorrectly to describe their family, their friends, their coworkers, let’s say. Today we’re going to get into the minds of a psychopath and a sociopath, to finally know how to identify them correctly. I believe that if you’re going to go on a mental journey to get your minds right, it’s important to be educated along the way as well. 


MegScoop Thomas: Well, let me be the first to admit I don’t know the difference between the two, and I have used them interchangeably as late as yesterday. Okay. So I can’t wait for you to break these terms down after this break. 




Dr. Imani Walker: Welcome back to Imani State Of Mind. We’re going to be deep diving into the difference between psychopaths and sociopaths. And I think this is really important because as I teased earlier, we are debunking very popular terms uh that we all kind of use socially. We kind of use them just, you know, layman’s terms when really these are terms that mean something in psychology and psychiatry. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So psychopath. Okay. So you were saying, Meg, that you are kind of confused as to what the difference is? 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah, because to me, they’re both crazies. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


MegScoop Thomas: That’s. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: What I’ve used. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. So so let me ask you a question. So when okay. The last time, if you can if you can remember this, the last time you used the word sociopath or psychopath, what were you what were you like describing? Because it wasn’t someone depressed, I’m guessing. 


MegScoop Thomas: No. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. What? What were you like? Like, what were you kind of trying to convey? 


MegScoop Thomas: Um that the person I was calling a sociopath was like, I think they said something like it had something to do with food. Like they liked a sandwich with no, like they ate a sandwich with no mayonnaise. It was like a dry sandwich. And I was like, ooo we got a sociopath. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Eew. 


MegScoop Thomas: A sociopath tendency. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Ugh. [laugh] Okay. Okay. [laughing] 


MegScoop Thomas: Oh my god. So I’m pretty sure that was incorrect. But that is the [?]. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, that was very that was very incorrect. It was very incorrect. But it’s okay. It’s fine. So that’s why I’m here. Okay, so let’s start. First of all, let’s go. Let’s go take a step back. So sociopath and psychopath both can describe someone who has uh been maybe not diagnosed, but has traits of something called antisocial personality disorder. Okay. There are various personality disorders. We’ve talked about some of them on the show. We’ve talked about borderline personality disorder a little bit. Um. Sometimes. Sometimes I will toss them around like, oh, so-and-so so histrionic because they’re very, very anxious. And there are things that will set them off like very, very easily and they’ll just get like, completely, you know, quote unquote “spaz out”. 


MegScoop Thomas: Oh, wait, that’s not. That doesn’t mean their current history? Histrionic? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Girl. Okay. Bye. I’m not even paying attention to you anymore. Um. So. 


MegScoop Thomas: Wait, wait wait. Hysteria, oh you mean, like Hysteria [?] not like. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Kind. Yeah, I would say. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I guess Hysteria is kind of like a synonym for– 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: For someone who’s, like, histrionic. 


MegScoop Thomas: See I’m getting better. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Um. You’re getting a little bit better. So antisocial personality disorder. The best way that I can like, the best example I can use is someone who’s antisocial, um is someone who is like a career criminal. Okay. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So these are people who they are. They they don’t have any regard for laws. They are very manipulative. These are people who will do anything to get what they want. Um. They have a lack of empathy. They’re unable to view situations from other people’s perspective. They can’t they don’t feel remorse. They feel very superior to others. They have what’s called a low autonomic nervous system arousal, which can also be which is another term um in psychology and psychiatry for someone who has um they have low stress tolerance. So, for example, you and I Meg have a pretty normal stress tolerance. So if something stressful occurs to us, we will get anxious, which is what you’d want to see happen. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Someone who is someone who has a low stress tolerance is like, you know, that cartoon, that little dog who’s sitting in like an office like like like a like an office cubicle and like, there’s, there’s fire all around them, and the dog is like, everything’s perfectly fine. That’s someone who has a low stress tolerance. 


MegScoop Thomas: Go ahead. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So that can be kind of problematic because if you have all this stress being thrown your way and you’re just like, it’s fine. Like, I’m really fine. Not just saying that they’re fine, but like, they’re. 


MegScoop Thomas: Legit. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like their pulse– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Is like low and they’re like, I’m completely cool in this situation. Nothing bothering me that’s a little bit like that that’s a red flag. 


MegScoop Thomas: Wait, is that, that’s a symptom of being like a psychopath or a sociopath? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. So these are, so what I’m describing right now are traits of antisocial personality disorder. 


MegScoop Thomas: Oh, got it. Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. So from what I can recall during training, like these are these are people who they may start to show these traits during childhood. If they do start to show these traits during childhood, even clinically, we do not diagnose them as antisocial or having antisocial personality disorder. They can either have conduct disorder or oppositional defiant disorder, I’m only explaining that because if there happens to be a parent or a guardian whose child may have been diagnosed or labeled as such, it’s just something to kind of look out for once, once the child turns 18. If this child continues to exhibit these types of behaviors like lack of empathy, being very manipulative, um sometimes these kids sometimes will fight, will set fires, uh will abuse animals, that type of a thing. Once they turn 18, they can be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. If any of this sounds familiar, like, wow, this sounds a lot like a serial killer, you would be correct. Um serial killers um pretty much exclusively have been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. I’ve dealt I deal with a lot of patients who have antisocial personality disorder because I work with uh people who uh have committed some really um serious crimes as a result of their mental illness. So. 


MegScoop Thomas: Wait I was going to ask about that. If it’s like, okay, so. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes. 


MegScoop Thomas: Whenever I’m watching shows on like my true crime stuff or, you know, just a TV series, a psychopath or a sociopath typically is somebody who has like commits murder of some sort or is like killing somebody. Are there psychopaths and sociopaths who don’t like they’re not that extreme? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Kill people? 


MegScoop Thomas: And if so– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Um. Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Like what is what is a what would make them a psychopath or a sociopath? And they’re not like killing people. Like what? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. Well, let me kind of answer that question backwards. So first of all, there there are key differences between psychopaths and sociopaths. So first, I want to say that I’ve never written on in someone’s chart. This person is a psychopath or this person is a sociopath. I might have written that like this person is is exhibiting some traits of psychopathy. A psych psychopathy and sociopathy are not diagnoses. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: They’re more so descriptors. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Of behavior that is exhibited when someone has antisocial personality disorder. The quick and dirty way. And what I tell people. When they ask me, just like, hey, Imani, like, what’s the difference? The difference is they’re both these are sociopaths and psychopaths are both people who have who are really like, you know, creepy. Like you get like you meet them and you’re just like, ugh, like, I don’t know. But here’s the difference. Psychopaths are very charming. They’re very charming. All they want to do is get to know you really well. And they’re like, Oh my God, that’s so cool. And they can chat you up like you won’t even know because they’re one of their like MOs is one of their prime objectives is is in some cases like they want to get to know someone else super well so that they can just go and destroy their life. So. Single, single, white female. Do remember that movie? 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Single white female. So Jennifer Jason Leigh was the was definitely somebody who was initially a sight. Well, she was a psychopath through and through, but she was like, oh, she moved in to the apartment with um I forgot her name. The other actress, she oh she’s a Fonda, I think. But she moves in and she’s like, Oh, you know, you’re so cool. Oh you’re so pretty. I love your hair. And then like the next week, she has the same haircut, the same like her hair is dyed the same way. She eventually ends up, like, taking her boyfriend. Like, it’s just it’s just crazy. So that’s more of a psychopath. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: A sociopath um is somebody who the best example I can think of is there was this serial killer by the name of the Iceman. And I don’t recall. I think he’s still alive. I think he’s still alive. Um. And this was somebody who actually. No. Hold on. Let me let me let me think about this. So I saw this documentary on HBO about The Iceman, who this was a guy who basically he was the uh butcher, the uh, the killer for the mob. He had a family. And like he had pictures with his family, he was, you know, coaching little league games, you know, like going to, you know, little, little family outings and stuff like that, like picture perfect husband. But when it was time for him to do his job, like his real job. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: He was cold, calculated. Like he said. People would be, like, screaming, like, please, you know, don’t do this. And he was just like, hey, like, I didn’t make the rules. This is my job. Like, he was a very cold kind of a person. I think Jeffrey Dahmer, um I’ve personally never met him, but from all of the uh documentaries I’ve seen and the things that I’ve read about him, he seemed to be kind of blank affect, like a very what will we say in psychiatry? A flattened affect, like just kind of like. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Okay, great. Like you could tell them, like, oh, my god, your mom just died, Jeffrey. And he’d be like, Huh? Wow. Okay, like, so it’s so. 


MegScoop Thomas: That’s so creepy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: He. 


MegScoop Thomas: Like. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, no, I mean, that’s that that’s that’s kind of how it is. Um. So in any case, um so psychopaths and sociopaths are slightly different, but really it’s kind of like they’re on the same spectrum of antisocial personality disorder. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. I’m going to just recap what you said just to make sure I got it right. Psychopath is someone who is charming but, like, has no feelings. Like, they flip the script on people. They thought they were cool and then they’re really not. And sociopaths is exactly what you thought, like when you get the heebie jeebies from somebody because of how they are like responding to you. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: And then. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: They you are right. Because they are they do those things. Is that like the best? Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You’ll get the heebie jeebies with both. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But with a psychopath, it’ll take a little longer. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: If that makes sense. Because they really are charming people like I’ve when I’ve met psychopaths, I mean, I knew they were psychopaths, but when I met them, I’m like, wow. I’m like, you know what he’s really a nice person. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Wow. But it’s like, I know what you did. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I know exactly what you did. Eew. [laughter] Like, like you. You are gross. Like you’re gross. No, like, I’m not messing with you. I mean, it it does eventually come out like like you will get you will get creeped out eventually. Like eewww. So there was there’s a there is a psychiatrist. Um. Her name is Dr. Bandy Lee, and she’s worked extensively with uh with people who are criminals, people who are, you know, definitely sociopaths and psychopaths. She her her theory is that Donald Trump is more so a sociopath as opposed to a narcissist. 


MegScoop Thomas: Ooo. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So here’s the thing. I honestly I mean, her theory is pretty sound. 


MegScoop Thomas: You know, I was reading the article, you are so right, because it was something about her saying, like during his presidency, President Trump said something about like, hey, if you guys go and hurt the hecklers, I’ll pay your legal bills. Um. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No, shoot them. 


MegScoop Thomas: Oh, yes yes yes. You shoot them. I’ll pay your legal bills. So it she said that it was exactly like the heads of prison gangs, how they said, if you go do these things, I will compensate you in some way, shape or fashion. And I thought about it I was like, Oh, my goodness. And he’s just like that. Except he has political power backing him. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Exactly. Was was. Well, what I find so interesting. About her take on Trump being more so a um sociopath as opposed to a narcissist is that when it comes to personality disorders, there are different clusters. There’s three different clusters. There’s A, B, and C when it comes to uh personality disorders, cluster B includes narcissism and antisocial personality disorder. So there is overlap with narcissists, like with with someone who’s a narcissist, and there can be overlap with someone who is who has antisocial personality disorder. 


MegScoop Thomas: Gotcha. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And may be displaying characteristics of psychopathy or sociopathy. So that being said, yeah, I really I really liked her take on it. Um. And I kind of it was something that I did think about when Trump was in office, just dealing with the patients that I see. Um. But like I said, there is overlap. So. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Um. [banter]


MegScoop Thomas: [?] You are 20 you are 20% narcissist and 80% [laughter]. 


MegScoop Thomas: Anti-social. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right, right. 


MegScoop Thomas: Personality disorder. Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Exactly. 


MegScoop Thomas: I got it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. There, there um. I have a patient right now who is super creepy and this guy is a serial rapist. And when I when I meet with him like he is, he’s he’s likable, he’s nice, whenever it’s like Christmas time. Like, I know that he likes to go and, like, look at the Christmas lights and, like, walk in the mall and stuff like that, but. They’re also sometimes things that he’ll say to me that I’m just like, I mean, they’re not like it’s not like, oh, I can’t wait to go out and rape these women. But it’s not that. But but it is. But it is like. Huh? Like, okay. 


MegScoop Thomas: [?] What? Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I mean, I write it all down. Yeah, but it’s like ugh now when we were speaking last time, last episode about narcissists, I had mentioned that I’ve never treated a narcissist because by definition they’re perfect or they believe they’re perfect and there’s nothing wrong with them. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: When it comes to sociopaths and psychopaths, you they actually are treatable. Now, have I seen someone treatable to the point of, you know, they’ve accomplished their goal of not having are not exhibiting antisocial traits? No. There is there is a type of therapy called cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT that can be used with sociopaths and psychopaths. I’ve you know, I’ve never seen it done. It it’s it’s it’s it’s difficult. You know, it’s difficult because this is not just how do I explain this? This isn’t about taking a pill. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And it goes away. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s not like, oh, it’s depression or anxiety. This is something that is ingrained. Like this is this person’s, you know, as as a personality disorder is called. It’s part of their personality. 


MegScoop Thomas: But wait is this. Is this like uh nature versus nurture, like which one when it comes to getting this disorder? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Well, I hate to say this, but it’s both. It’s kind of both. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mmmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So there are studies that indicate that it can be, you know, anywhere from 38 to like I think like 64% genetic, um I think. And also, you know, also it can be environmental. I, I will say that in my family, I mean, not that it’s a surprise, but I became a psychiatrist because I wanted to figure out what was going on in my family and what I would see and about stories I would hear. There was is there’s a story about someone that I’m related to. Who. I believe the story is that there was a dog that was left outside like in the winter overnight, and the dog died as a way of, like, punishing, like, kids. [gasp] Yeah. Something. Yeah, something wild like that. And I will say, okay, I will say this. As I’ve gotten older, like you get older, you kind of start to come into your own. You can see like what you can do, how far you can go. I definitely had years where I was like, okay, if I wanted. Like, I know how to manipulate people and if I wanted to really be good at this, I could. [gasp] And I’ve seen some of that– 


MegScoop Thomas: You a sociopath Imani? 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m a sociopath [fake screaming] oh my god! Killing people! Yeah. No, no, I definitely. I’m not a sociopath. I really–


MegScoop Thomas: No no, you’d be more psychopath. You’re very charming. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes, I would be a psychopath, but I’m not because I have a lot of empathy. And like even today, somebody told me because it’s been super hot in L.A. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: To the point where, oh, my god, it’s like 105 every day. And when I wake up in the morning at six, it’s like 84 degrees. But someone told me this story about how there’s like there are horses and cattle, like dying from the heat. And I got really sad for like 10 minutes. So. 


MegScoop Thomas: Aww. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So that so just to prove to everybody I’m not a psychopath. I’m just kidding. Um. But but I began to. But I guess what I’m saying is I began to kind of realize as I was growing up like, wow, like their thing, like, if I really wanted to lean into this, I could. But I didn’t beause that’s–


MegScoop Thomas: In to my hereditary psychopathic ways. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right? But I was like I was like, I can’t. I was like, I really don’t want to do like. That. It just it was too much work. And if there’s anything a psychopath or a sociopath will never say is that it’s too much work. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: They’re like, this is fun. Like. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: This is what I do. So that being said, um you know, I hope you guys learned a bit about the difference between psychopaths and sociopaths. They’re kind of one of my favorites in terms of uh patients to work with and patients to treat. They’re just interesting. Like, they’re not my favorite because like, we go we go hang out and like. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Go to the beach and like go out to eat at all. But they’re just but in terms of, of like, oh, wow. Like when I’m reading their chart and I’m like, oh, my God, this is crazy. That’s that’s kind of why they’re interesting to me. So anyway, that being said, I hope you guys understand all of this, uh not all of this, but psychopathy and sociopathy a little bit more. And that this, you know, the correct terms, find their way into your conversations and into your vocabulary. So. 


MegScoop Thomas: I love it. I love it. That. I mean, I won’t call someone who who has dry sandwich a sociopath anymore. Thank you for clearing that up for me. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No. Tota– Yeah. No, that’s not. [laughter] That’s not the same at all. Oh, my God. Okay, so that’s all the time we have for our deep dive conversation today. 


MegScoop Thomas: Well, I think it is a perfect time to get into our favorite segment of the show. Pop Culture Diagnosis. [music break]


Dr. Imani Walker: Let’s get in to our pop culture diagnosis for this week. Meg, please give our listeners a quick synopsis of the new Issa Rae series Rap Sh!t and who we are going to diagnose today. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yes, this is for all you Insecure fans out there. Issa Rae is back and she did not disappoint with her new series, Rap Sh!t on HBO Max. Look, this show takes place in Miami um and we follow the lives of two aspiring female rappers uh try to make their rap dreams come true. I really love this show. I watch it. It is. And by the way, it’s funny that, you know, it’s called Rap Sh!t, but in, you know, promoting this. Cable can’t say that, you know, like ABC, CBS, they can’t say, Rap Shit. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. How do they say it? 


MegScoop Thomas: This is what they’re saying. Rap blank. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Get out. 


MegScoop Thomas: I kid you not. 


Dr. Imani Walker: They not even say like rap shh. 


MegScoop Thomas: No rap blank. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Get out.


MegScoop Thomas: I was cry– I heard it on like Entertainment Tonight or something. And I was cracking up. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like, oh, my. 


MegScoop Thomas: Rap blank. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Rap blank. 


MegScoop Thomas: We can watch rap blank on HBO Max. 


Dr. Imani Walker: What! Rap shh. Well, didn’t I mean, didn’t Donald Trump say shithole countries? Like, can’t we say like shit now? 


MegScoop Thomas: I don’t think you can. I mean I think on certain networks. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Maybe not in the morning. I don’t know. 


MegScoop Thomas: I don’t know. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I don’t know. I don’t know.


MegScoop Thomas: Um. But yes, but this this show is really great. Um. It’s super funny. It’s super, like, just cool. Watching these two girls like this is a real it gives city girl vibes but and come to find out they– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yes. 


MegScoop Thomas: –got consultants on the show. If you look in the credits, you’ll see their names. But the character that we’re going to diagnose is the pimp turned wannabe music manager Chastity, a.k.a. Duke, a.k.a. Duke of Titties, a.k.a. She’s got a lot of a.k.a.’s. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, my God. Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: Duke. She’s got a lot of names. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Duke of titties. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes. 


MegScoop Thomas: But she’s definitely doing whatever it takes to make it to survive. So what do you think about her? What can we diagnose her with? 


Dr. Imani Walker: [gasp] okay. Chastity. Chastity. All right. So I’m going to talk first about like a personal level as far as like what, you know, what what kind of stuck out for me as far as Chastity. So but what did seem interesting to me is that, like you said, she she she is a pimp was a pimp trying to get out of the pimp game. Um. We see her interact with her uncle who is still a pimp. And some of the things that he says are, you know, is is is pimp language is very offensive. It’s. At one point, he was like, you need to. He told chastity. He was like, you need to take out your dick and slap slap these hoes in the face and have them understand that you mean business. And I was like, okay, um first of all, I don’t even know if she has a dick, but I understand the sentiment so. In any case that means that one of the things that that that I thought was really interesting was that Chastity is a woman, but she definitely has internalized a lot of um like cis het male, you know, just just misogyny you know what I mean? 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like she’s definitely like, you know, like she’s I mean, I don’t know any pimps personally. I guess in my mind I was like, Oh, she’s a pimp. I just imagined her as kind of being more like um, like a, like queen bee. Like, like Queen Bee and like Black Dynamite or like queen bee and like, I don’t remember the Blaxploitation movie now, but like, like, like, like obviously a woman. More, I guess maybe more so on the femme side. But even if she wasn’t like more so outwardly femme, she was definitely more respectful. Um. But Chastity is just like I’m here. I don’t give a fuck. Like, y’all bitches got to sell this pussy and that’s– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Basically it. The thing about Chastity that’s interesting is that she definitely gives off a vibe of not giving a fuck, but she also, over the course of the show, she plays herself repeatedly. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s kind of like she’s playing like she like she really wants to be like a sociopath or a psychopath. Well, let’s say a sociopath. She really wants to be a sociopath, but she don’t really know how to do it yet. So it’s it’s it’s just kind of interesting. Like like there was there was one scene where she’s speaking to one of the one of the characters. And and she oh, she was speaking to one of the main characters. And the main character was like, yo, like, you know, I’m, I’m busting my ass. I’m out in these streets. I’m doing all this shit. And Chastity was like, you mean I’m busting my ass. Like, I’m doing all this shit. Like, you don’t do anything in these streets without me knowing. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And then finally, the main character was like, okay, you know what? Like, I do need you. And Chastity was like, say it again. And she was like, I need you. It was that kind of dynamic. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But then you also see Chastity like she tried to hustle her ways into getting some money and she got completely played. Like they just got up and left the room. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So she she has a lot of, like, braggadocio and bravado, but she hasn’t fully she hasn’t fully mastered what it takes to become like a true sociopath, I guess is. Which is a good thing. That’s a good thing. I just want to put that out there. That is a that is a very good thing. Okay. So, I mean, I feel for her. It’s just that she’s there’s so many levels to her. And I kind of wish, like, I could just I mean, as though this is a real person, but I wish that I could just, like, go down to Miami and kind of strip off of, like, all the pain and hurt and the misogyny that she has embodied. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So that she could just like it’s like, girl, you could still manage these girls. You totally could, but you don’t have to do it like the way these raggedy ass men do in these streets. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right, and you know what and I was going to make. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like you don’t. 


MegScoop Thomas: I was going to make a comment about that, because, you see, like in the series, she’s a pimp, but she to me runs her girls the way a man pimp would run his girls. But I think it’s like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: You see that she still has to deal with sexism when she talks to these men and she’s, like, bringing them girls to their parties. And you see in the first episode or two that they don’t pay her. And she’s just kind of like as a woman, I was sitting there like. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: I’ve been there before where I, you know, not not the lil hoeing part, but the part where, like, I feel like I did some work and there was some men that were just like, Yeah, whatever, yeah. We’ll get to you next time, you know. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: Like that same feeling of defeat on her face. And I was just like, ahh I’ve been there. But then she has this very like, you know, confidence about her when it comes to how she talks to her girls. So it’s like, why doesn’t that transfer over in how you talk to these men? And it’s a very big, like wom– woman issue. As women, we have to learn how to deal with, uh you know, having that confidence to talk to men and deal with them the way we would talk to women and deal with them in like a a work type of setting. In her work setting happens to be the business of selling the vag with these girls. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. No, you like, you that’s exactly. Yeah, like, you nailed it right on the head like that. That wasn’t that was my biggest issue with her. Like, I was just like, girl. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like, if you really, like, why don’t you flip it on these dudes? 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like, I don’t understand. Like, why like, why are you taking the brunt of your frustration out on these women like y’all women. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right? You could– 


Dr. Imani Walker: You know what I’m saying? 


MegScoop Thomas: use that to your advantage. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right, exactly. So in any case, I was just kind of like [sigh] I mean, I put it to you like this. I really like the character Chastity. She she kind of, you know, she she let me down. But I mean, that’s what makes for an interesting character. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You know, she, um, I mean, I almost was going to say, like, come on, Chastity, like, I know you can do it, you can be a socio, you’ll be a sociopath. But like that’s not what we want. [laughter] That is not what we want. I’m like, we want for Chastity. We want for you to flip the script on these dudes. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right, right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And like, like, I honestly, I want Chastity to be like Ronnie. I want Chastity to be out here, beating these men with with whips and stuff and being like, give me my money. And, you know, like, just, you know, splitting the money with the girls and like, you know, just being really fair and [indistinct] you know, maybe, like, engaging in more socialist principles or something. I mean, but I don’t think that’s going to happen. 


MegScoop Thomas: Well I’m just going to say. I’m a diagnose her with low self-esteem because if she– 


Dr. Imani Walker: That. 


MegScoop Thomas: –had higher self-esteem, I feel like she would have she would make sure she got her money from those men when they owed her for– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Bringing in the girls. 


Dr. Imani Walker: For real. 


MegScoop Thomas: Low self-esteem. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No for real. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would say this. I mean, I would say the same thing. She just she it’s it’s kind of I mean, she’s it’s kind of like she faking it till she making it. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. Right.


Dr. Imani Walker: You know, but I just I just I want her to have better. So, Chastity, I just want you to do better, that’s all. Just do better, girl. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yes. yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Just do better. Anyway, that’s it for pop culture diagnosis. Of course, we’re going to have another fun character to analyze next week. So if you guys have suggestions for any fictional characters out there that you’d love for me to diagnose, hit me up on Twitter at @doctor_Imani hit up Meg on Instagram @MegScoop and email the show at And again, if you’re enjoying the show, please do not forget to rate and review the show on your favorite podcast apps. Thank you again for listening to Imani State of Mind. Thank you, as always to Meg for co-hosting. And we will be back for an all new episode next week. [music break] This is a Crooked Media production. Our executive producer is Sandy Girard. Our producer is Leslie Martin. Music from Vasilis Fotopoulos, edited by Veronica Simonetti and special thanks to Brandon Williams, Gabi Leverette, Mellani Johnson and Matt DeGroot for promotional support.