
In This Episode
Meta makes up with MAGA, Black students barred from empowerment clubs, tow companies allowed to sell people’s cars, and the legacy of Dada Masilo.
Support California wildfire relief efforts with a donation to:
News
Behind the Curtain: Meta’s make-up-with-MAGA map
Gone in 15 Days: How the Connecticut DMV Allows Tow Companies to Sell People’s Cars
World of dance mourns death of ‘brilliant light’ Dada Masilo at age of 39
DC Public Schools hit with federal civil rights complaint over ‘student affinity group’
‘Essential’: nearly 800 incarcerated firefighters deployed as LA battles wildfires
I talked to Meta’s Black AI character. Here’s what she told me.
TRANSCRIPT
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, it’s me, Kaya, Myles, and De’Ara talking about everything that’s going on with regard to race, justice, and equity. And Lord knows, 2025 has just started in such a wild way. And hopefully this episode can help give you language and help you think about what’s going on in the world. And we are sending all of our love to everybody affected by the fires in Los Angeles. Make sure that you check on your people. We have some resources around support in the notes. And I have seen such incredible, beautiful displays of community and people working together, people building infrastructure, people creating space for love and hope in this moment. And that is really beautiful. Here we go.
Kaya Henderson: Catastrophic wildfires are still raging in Los Angeles. To support disaster relief efforts, Vote Save America action and Crooked ideas have set up a fundraiser to help on the ground groups, including World Central Kitchen, Los Angeles Regional Food Bank and more. With wildfires forcing over 180,000 people to evacuate and thick smoke blanketing the metro area, these groups are providing critical aid to those who need it most. You can make a donation today at VoteSaveAmerica.com/relief. That’s VoteSaveAmerica.com/relief. We’ll also put the link in the show notes.
[AD BREAK]
De’Ara Balenger: Family. Welcome to another episode of Pod Save the People. I am De’Ara Balenger. You can find me on Instagram at @dearabalenger.
Myles E. Johnson: I’m Myles E. Johnson. You can find me on Instagram at @pharaohrapture.
Kaya Henderson: I’m Kaya Henderson. You can find me on Instagram at @kayashines
DeRay Mckesson: And this is DeRay at @deray on Twitter.
Kaya Henderson: Still?
DeRay Mckesson: Still. Yeah. I’m not going, I’m still here. [laughter]
Myles E. Johnson: And he won’t call it X. You better respect Elon.
DeRay Mckesson: I was there before that man. I was there before [?].
Myles E. Johnson: Elan.
DeRay Mckesson: That’s my–
Myles E. Johnson: Elan. Elon Storms. [laugh]
Kaya Henderson: Mmm. Happy New Year y’all.
Myles E. Johnson: Happy New Year!
De’Ara Balenger: Happy New Year!
DeRay Mckesson: Happy happy and–
De’Ara Balenger: Happy new year, Kaya’s with us today.
DeRay Mckesson: Happy birthday to the one and only De’Ara. Woop woop. [cheering]
De’Ara Balenger: Oh thanks y’all.
Myles E. Johnson: Happy birthday.
DeRay Mckesson: Happy Birthday.
Kaya Henderson: [singing] Happy Birthday to ya.
De’Ara Balenger: Aw.
DeRay Mckesson: Happy Birthday to ya.
De’Ara Balenger: Y’all, it was an interesting birthday, I have to say. But we’re going to kick off. We have, last week forgot to mention about uh talk about the passing of Jimmy Carter. Um. Not on purpose. We like Jimmy Carter. We appreciate his contribution. Um. And I think what was top of mind for us about it was the funeral um that happened. When did that happen? I feel like it was Thursday or Friday of this week. I don’t know.
Myles E. Johnson: Time.
De’Ara Balenger: All the days are now mixing together. Um. But it was it was interesting. And it mostly what first of all, I wasn’t going to watch the funeral. I’m not a funeral watcher unless it is Michael Jackson. Whitney Houston, you know.
Myles E. Johnson: Aretha.
Kaya Henderson: Aretha Franklin.
De’Ara Balenger: Those are those are the funerals I’m watching on TV, televised.
Myles E. Johnson: Yes.
De’Ara Balenger: Prince. And I’m stopping work to do that because those are holidays for me. So I did not watch. But my mom, who watches daytime TV and watches, you know, her favorite show right now is Karamo. And I love Karamo, but that’s where we’re at in my house. So anyway. [laughter] So–
DeRay Mckesson: Your mom is such a–
So she’s watching–
DeRay Mckesson: –such a vibe.
De’Ara Balenger: She.
Kaya Henderson: She really is.
De’Ara Balenger: She’s watching the Jimmy Carter funeral like it’s Young and the Restless. Like not like it’s an actual man’s funeral. So then she’s like, well, look at Obama. Look at Obama talking to Trump. Now he’s laughing. So I was getting I was watching, but then getting the pay the play by play by my mom. Um. So it was there were some very interesting dynamics happening there. And and I’ve seen all the memes too that are like making fun of like what, you know, sort of like little bubbles by each sort of former head of state and their wife it their thoughts. Um. Yeah, I, I, I stopped watching. I didn’t see Joe Biden’s speech. I don’t know if anyone, if anyone did.
Myles E. Johnson: I didn’t.
De’Ara Balenger: That really would make it a funeral.
Myles E. Johnson: It was so slow chile. I was like oh my god. I’m like, where are are they like recharging him? Like what? Like like how like what is going on? [banter and laughter] I was like [?], and he already, you know, he’s he formally he no he had a stuttering problem. So I’m sure that’s informing it. But that old age is ki– that is a, God.
De’Ara Balenger: It’s it’s it’s it’s kicking in.
Myles E. Johnson: Oh my God. I don’t know how in step or out of step I am with other people on the Internet because I’ve been trying to like uh just just really eliminate my social media use. But um I think the seeing the Obama laugh with Trump, from what I can tell, has maybe awakened some people that all these people are on the same side. They all have a similar experience with each other and it’s it’s theater that they are for you. They really have more. These kind of like rich imperialists have more in common with each other than they do anybody else. And I think some people get disturbed when they see somebody who called Trump a fascist and was, you know, and yelled at Black men and told them that they need to go vote and and and pull their pants up and go vote for vice president Harris and all this other stuff and said how deplorable Trump was and then you’re being chummy with him. I think it just reestablishes for a lot of people that, oh there are people with power and people with not with power. And no matter what that person with power is telling me, they’re still uh closer, more have more in common uh with the people in power. So that’s what, if anything, the Jimmy Carter funeral reminded me of and um I don’t know how in step.
De’Ara Balenger: But Myles.
Myles E. Johnson: Or out of step I am with that.
De’Ara Balenger: Is it that or that or that man just don’t necessarily have a G code. I just feel like–
Myles E. Johnson: What’s–
De’Ara Balenger: I just feel like with Obama, like it’s not like my daddy’s sitting next to Trump. It’s, you know, Obama. Look so much love, so much love, but he didn’t necessarily grow up the way we all grew up.
DeRay Mckesson: De’Ara.
De’Ara Balenger: He–
Myles E. Johnson: But he but he but he knew.
De’Ara Balenger: You know what I’m saying? And I’m not. I love people of the diaspora. I do. I love y’all. But I’m just I just feel like this is a man, like Barack Obama. This is a man that still says you are not from America. Like this is somebody who you honestly should want to punch in the face and that but that is that’s I grew up in southeast D.C. so for me, there’s certain codes you live by.
Myles E. Johnson: Of course.
De’Ara Balenger: I didn’t grow up in Hawaii. I don’t know. Maybe there’s something going on over there.
Myles E. Johnson: But I, I–
De’Ara Balenger: That’s just–
Myles E. Johnson: I think I still–
De’Ara Balenger: But I see what you’re saying, but I guess I’m just petty and and ignorant.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah I think I still I re—
De’Ara Balenger: And so that’s how.
Myles E. Johnson: I reject the, like um, the like Obama doesn’t know better thing because Obama knew how to put on that Blaccent and talk to the brothas with the A at the end. He knows how to do all these other.
De’Ara Balenger: But I just like that makes, that that makes sense though.
Myles E. Johnson: He knows how to do so many performative things for public theater and for media. So he knows how to how to navigate things. He knows that he he he’s a master at making it look like he doesn’t know he’s being seen. And still, I mean, you just don’t become president and have as much power and fame as Obama without just being a master of that. So he knew what he needed to perform. So he decided this is what I needed to perform. And it’s it’s that kind of pageantry, diplomatic bullshit that Americans, you know, American elites love to see. And that’s what he decided to perform because that was in his best interest to perform. His best interest was not to perform a disdain for President Trump for the likes of the left or Black folks. I think that was a decision. I don’t think that was just some cultural naivete. I think that was a deliberate decision. Just how I think Michelle Obama staying home was a deliberate decision because I think they want to util–
De’Ara Balenger: I agree. But we’re agreeing.
Myles E. Johnson: But I think they but I think they want to utilize.
De’Ara Balenger: I think we’re agreeing.
Myles E. Johnson: Just let me finish this one little thought.
De’Ara Balenger: 100% yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: I just think that they I just think I just think they want to be able to utilize her to be able to speak to people that maybe Obama is never going to able to speak to again. So she can’t be there. So I just think that it’s all chess and theater to me.
De’Ara Balenger: They’re not that nobody nobody is that smart in this party to be that strategic about her not going there. That’s just a fact.
DeRay Mckesson: My favorite was Pence’s, Pence’s wife, I thought was incredible how she just did not acknowledge Trump at all. So Trump goes over to shake and Pence gets up and you’re like Pence, he literally tried to kill you. What is going on?
Kaya Henderson: Kill you. Tried to–
DeRay Mckesson: And when I tell you Pence’s wife, I think her name might even be Karen Pence. She literally just sat there. I was like you win you win you are–
Kaya Henderson: But that, that is.
DeRay Mckesson: And she didn’t even like.
Kaya Henderson: That. That’s right. Like she was the most authentic person there. And I will say, I I don’t know–
DeRay Mckesson: Well second to her Kaya was Kamala looking over at Trump.
Kaya Henderson: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: And and Obama looking like now y’all know better.
Kaya Henderson: Listen, I can’t guess what Mr. Obama’s motivation was or wasn’t. I I am not going to try to to speculate. I’m going to tell you what Kaya Henderson would have done. I [laughter], Karen Pence was the light version of Kaya Henderson cause’ I at my best behavior, I would have gone to another part of the church or some stuff because I would not be anywhere near him. And if he especially I mean, I just I would not be able to be in close proximity. Um. And I do I know for sure. First of all, kudos to Michelle, who was like, I’m not even playing this game like I’m out. Um. I wouldn’t I, I actually feel like we do a dis the performative the we all get along when I actually don’t believe that I don’t believe that that they I don’t believe that they were chit chatting and that they have more in common than I actually don’t believe that. But I do think that the when they go low we go high thing is not working for us anymore. And I think that Mr. Obama chooses to continue to go high and to try to continue to hold a, a standard and to be professional and to be whatever. Um. And I and I think that um what I’ve learned over the last, I guess, eight years is that the people who go low are winning, and that informs a change in strategy for me. Um. And so I was a little stunned at how chummy people were being um considering how low Mr. Trump has gone personally against people like that just can’t we can’t ride out like that. You can’t try, call for my, like, murder and I’m going to shake like I will never shake your hand. I won’t be anywhere near you. And like and I actually think part of the reason why America is like, untrusting of politicians is because at the time when you should want to sock a dude in the face, you are chitchatting and whatnot, and people are like, that’s not real and that’s not who I want to represent me. So I thought that was fascinating.
DeRay Mckesson: And the chumminess is really hard when you just spent a recent election cycle telling us this man was the anti-Christ.
Kaya Henderson: Yup.
DeRay Mckesson: And then you’re sitting next to him, Kikiing, and you’re like.
Kaya Henderson: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: So Kamala to me with Kamala kept it cute and classy but like, we not doing this. I’m not pretending. I like respect that, you know, because you’re like and then.
Kaya Henderson: Yup.
DeRay Mckesson: What really made it brutal was I don’t know if you all saw Trump’s when Trump was asked about it the next day at the press conference. And he goes, yeah, people were saying that we were we were like laughing. And I guess we are sort of, we do have a lot in common. Da da. And you’re like, what? Nightmare. Nightmare. Just all around not good. I will say, you know, as we talk about the election and stuff, I don’t know if you saw that interview with J.D. Vance where he sort of walked back the idea of a universal pardon for the January 6th people.
Kaya Henderson: Mm mm.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah he–
Kaya Henderson: Say more. Say more.
DeRay Mckesson: He sort of made this delineation between those who committed violence and the rest of them. So he’s like, obviously, some people shouldn’t be pardoned on January 6th. So that was the first time I’ve heard them do this. But it is interesting to see, you know, some of the things that they riled their base up, grocery prices, They’re like, jk, we’re not doing that, you know like?
Kaya Henderson: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: They are slowly walking back. And January 6th is one of his big things. And J.D. Vance got on the news and is walking it back a little bit.
Myles E. Johnson: Even that big um immigration debacle around um–
DeRay Mckesson: The H-1b visas?
Myles E. Johnson: Exactly.
Kaya Henderson: Oh yeah. Vivek is now saying we’re welcoming to hardworking immigrants. [laughter]
Myles E. Johnson: And it’s like, if they if if if so many of those vocal people weren’t so kind of like disgustingly racist it’s like, I would I’m feel bad for them because you got got. Like your get your continuously getting got and it’s it’s by the slimiest New York real estate I mean Trump is just slimy and it’s like I think anybody who’s just sharp can see that you’re you know that what the angle is except those people not trying to say they’re not sharp, but those seem like dull decisions.
De’Ara Balenger: Well, that’s the perfect transition, Myles, because we also wanted to talk about Mr. Trump, got got sentenced this past week. 34 felonies.
Kaya Henderson: Convicted.
De’Ara Balenger: I don’t have one cousin that got all these felonies and then didn’t get no jail time. That’s really what it’s hard for me to understand, all these felonies no jail time.
Kaya Henderson: I didn’t know that you could actually, like, not get. I mean, I understand why he’s about to be the president, but I just didn’t I don’t think I knew that you could.
De’Ara Balenger: Nothing. I didn’t either.
Kaya Henderson: That this was possible.
De’Ara Balenger: No jail time, no fines, no probation.
Kaya Henderson: Nothing.
De’Ara Balenger: Nothing.
Myles E. Johnson: I think a lot of people didn’t know it was possible because nobody saw it in a possible reality. [loud laughter and banter]
Kaya Henderson: Because we’ve never have we ever done this?
De’Ara Balenger: [?] no president with no 34 felonies. [banter]
Myles E. Johnson: In a–
Kaya Henderson: Have we ever done this?
Myles E. Johnson: Do you–
Kaya Henderson: In the history of the justice system?
DeRay Mckesson: Well, to be clear, remember, he got his sentence was unconditional discharge. Who even knew that was a sentence.
Kaya Henderson: Right? That’s what I that’s my point. I didn’t know that was a possibility.
DeRay Mckesson: Unconditional discharge.
Kaya Henderson: Let me look this up.
DeRay Mckesson: Is unreal. And I love people. I the the–
Myles E. Johnson: I wonder how much that costs.
DeRay Mckesson: My my lawyer friends are like, you know what? Next time I go in to court, I might ask for an unconditional discharge.
Kaya Henderson: Me too, me too.
De’Ara Balenger: 100%.
DeRay Mckesson: Because.
Kaya Henderson: Oh my.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah. No it–
Myles E. Johnson: They’re gonna be like is it, I was like, is he are they going to be like, is your Black ass last name uh Brown or Johnson? If it’s not Trump, get out of here. [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: I’ve been really I’ve been really slow to critique Merrick Garland, and I’m not a lawyer, but I will say that I had anticipated the Department of Justice to do more to hold Trump accountable when it had a chance to. And I don’t know what is possible, but this just feels like they did not. I what I do know is that if the if if the Black activists had stormed the Capitol and Donald Trump was the president, let me tell you, they’d have targeted everybody that I might have known in the history of knowing. It would have been–
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah of course.
DeRay Mckesson: Full blown they’d have had the president in prison, it would have been on and poppin.
Myles E. Johnson: Of course.
DeRay Mckesson: They killed police officers all like. And I just. I, Garland I’m sure you did some great things over there. But in the Civil Rights Division, shout out to Kristen because they are doing it. But the the way Trump got away with murder is wild. The way Elon got away with election interference is wild. The way that Facebook was allowed to do, you know, because what I keep reminding myself about Trump, people talk about Trump as the as the reality TV president. And that is sort of true. But Trump does not become Trump without Cambridge Analytica and without Facebook, without hacking Facebook. There is no way that they make the base that Trump has like it was Facebook.
De’Ara Balenger: It’s wild. The I mean, I don’t even know I was trying to because I knew we were going to talk about the fires, obviously, which has been top of mind and heart for every for everyone. And I was like, let me just watch the news. I don’t know. I was watching the news. I probably watched the news for like two and a half hours. I learned nothing. I watched CNN and I was like, I just wanted to sort of see like if they’re going to have fire experts, if they are going to have they kept replaying this interview of of Governor Newsom um and him being out and about and saying that the one thing I did learn um from that segment with with Gavin Newsom is that something I had not considered because I don’t know anything about fires, obviously is um that removing the debris also means considering batteries, refrigerators, microwaves, everything that has like now disintegrated and then will go into the ground. That is also a consideration in terms of how the rebuild is happening. And I will say. That, you know, there is obviously that there’s there’s the very real thing of holding space for so many people that have been impacted by this disaster and the devastation and what is happening to hearts and spirits. And there’s also the rebuild. And what does that rebuild look like? And we have seen a rebuild before as Black folks in different parts of the country after a natural disaster. And so it was interesting because he was already like, well, in six to nine months, we’re going to get into this rebuild. Um. Which I think I think just as somebody that’s worked in government and has worked on big emergencies like I it was honestly, I was probably one of the some of the biggest honors of my life working in government were working on crisis, working on people, getting people the things that they need as soon as possible, and using our government as like a modality to do that. Because when it happens correctly, it’s incredible. Um. But yeah, I guess that’s just. I hadn’t, I’m so I’m still in the muck of it with my friends, some of whom have lost their whole communities, some of whom have lost their homes, some of whom are still waiting to see which way the wind blows to determine whether or not they’re going to lose their home. So I guess my mind hadn’t gone to rebuild because why? Why would it? But um but I don’t know. Those are just some reflections that I tried to have something prepared and helpful and thoughtful to say. But um in my gathering of information, it just I think it just left me searching all all the more.
DeRay Mckesson: I just want to zoom all the way out. And I’m sure other people talk about the impact. And we know we all know people who were impacted in a way that is just um beyond unfortunate and sad to think of not only houses that are gone, which is a tragedy in and of itself. A whole community’s legacies, family histories, all the things that are in houses like that is real. Um. This is a reminder for me. You know I wanna I don’t know what the tagline is, but make government boring again. Like we actually need people in government that just like care about the government. That’s it. Who just like are going to be up all night over potholes and fire hydrants and uniforms and that that actually is all they want to do. And there was a time in public service where, like those were the people and then something happened. But I think about um I want to talk about there’s a really good piece in The Atlantic that talks about what happened with the insurance problem that is in California. So in 1988, California voters passed Proposition 103 that arbitrarily reduced insurance rates by 20% and subjected future rate increases to public oversight, because obviously nobody likes high premiums. But what happened was, is that it made artificially low premiums in environmentally dangerous neighborhoods, places where people wanted to move there before the insurance would have been really high. But because of Proposition 103, insurance was artificially low. People moved into these neighborhoods that they already knew would be in the path of something like this. And then because the insurance was really low, they didn’t have much of an incentive for homeowners to put fire resistant roofs, siding material, like there was a this is a this is the long tail of policy decisions made a long time ago in ways that made total sense. And like I could see people being like low insurance da da da. And now you’re in this really complicated place where the private insurers dropped all these people recently. People didn’t have to get insurance for homes or fireproof them. And then we have whole communities wiped out when the infrastructure around fire rescue is gone. So that’s like one thing, just a reminder of like the long tail of public policy, even when it is good in the moment, has consequences. The second thing, though, is about just the preparedness of L.A. Now, what L.A. did really poorly was manage the communications on this. It could have been completely out of their control to like, do anything. I saw the winds, the fires moving really quick, but it was really hard where like the only way to get any accurate information is like randomly Twitter and Twitter is not even good anymore. Or that watch duty app. I don’t know if you downloaded the app, but there’s an app that was tracking the fire. That app is volunteer run. Those people did 24 hour shifts. They had never had that many people use the app. It is scary when it’s like a random group of volunteers who just happened to care about fire are the only people telling people where the fires are. The city sent out two citywide texts by mistake, telling people to evacuate the entire city of L.A. You know, it’s just like you really, the comms on this actually contributes to the sense of terror that people had in addition to the tragedy that is already happening. And the third thing is around um the city budgets and how we talk about and prepare for emergencies. I am not sure that climate change is the best phrase for this anymore. I think it is too big for people. I think we do need to start talking about like wildfires, like y’all there’s a wildfire problem, there’s a tsunami problem, there’s a heat problem. Like I think we have to start naming it a little better because I saw some some prominent Republicans who are like climate change isn’t real, their houses got burned down. They’re on Twitter talking about, you know, this is a catastrophe. You’re like well what? You know, Garcetti has a famous quote from before being like the only way he he has a quote that’s like nothing we can do will stop a real tragedy. The only thing that will stop it will be the earth cooling down. He’s like, we will not be able to prepare L.A. for like, an actual [?] fire, like it will be impossible. Um. And then to De’Ara’s point, in terms of like watching the news and stuff, it’s like, you know, when you think about firefighters will never be able to have the hoses pour fire from like, you know, from the hole from the street down. You’re like, you will need the airplanes. The planes can’t drop it if the winds too hot. Like there’s sort of a like teaching people what to expect and how to understand the firefighting. That I do think this just missed the moment, um which makes which I think contributed to people’s sense of terror around it. The rebuild has been really cool. But I do think about like you know, we need city leaders who just care about the minutia of making the city work. And the pageantry of politics, I think is really going to continue to be deadly for people.
Myles E. Johnson: I was kind of like you, De’Ara, and was looking at the news and was was kind of like, okay, well, well, what’s what good is this? But um I came across Char Miller’s uh kind of comments on wildfires. He’s a uh he’s a he’s an environmental analyst and an ecologist. And I want to read a couple of quotes that I found really interesting. And this is he’s been talking about this for um for, for years now. One of the quotes is um California is built to burn. And we built it in a way that makes it more likely to burn. Another quote that I found and found interesting is fire is not something we should think of as an alien force. It’s part of the landscape. What makes it catastrophic are our choices. Where we live, how we build and how we manage the land around us. And I know it’s not necessarily the easiest thing to like hear while the disaster is happening, because who wants to politicize a disaster? But all disasters in United States are political, and this is not just a disaster that has happened just because the forces of nature, it also have to do with corporate greed, land development, um how much we have just uh just disrespected the land and how we build things. So also understand that what people are experiencing is also a part or a dimension of capitalism eating itself, eating its own. Um. I guess the last thing that I wanted to say and hopefully I dropped some links in our group chat that hopefully um our amazing producer who lives in California, A.J, can drop in the bio. But I think from what I could see also was there was a lot of coverage of the wealthy and privileged people who were affected by these fires and everybody is a human. So I totally get it. But I think in our fascination with the lives of celebrities, we can often forget that they are people who are um immigrants who are not going to be able to participate in certain things. A lot of these fires uh were not a lot of the funds that we’re seeing, um a lot of the fires that are being put it out being put out are by um imprisoned people. So they’re risking their lives and their bodies in order to keep a lot of people in Los Angeles, but a lot of wealthy people safe, which is this own kind of um apocalyptic dystopian reality. And um, you know, queer Black folks, you know, like a lot of the people who are affected by this are are not again, are not celebrities, are not wealthy people. And I think sometimes uh the wealthier, more privileged, famous people can can over represent who um who we care about. And it feels weird to say that. And I’m not saying that you, I don’t know. I have capacity in my heart to care both about Ricki Lake and about the anonymous person. Um. And and and I just want to give space for that because I just did not see that amount of coverage of just the regular a lot of the regular folks who are being affected by this, too. And the, you know, imprisoned people who are risking their lives to make, you know, to to take the fire off L.A..
Kaya Henderson: I want us to actually connect on a human level about like what it must be like to wake up today and your whole life is gone, right? Like these people are are have been terrorized and traumatized and like, there is no nothing like the fabric of your life is gone. Your school is gone, your church or your synagogue is gone. The community center is gone. The hardware store is gone. Like all of these things are gone. And like, you don’t know where you’re going tomorrow. Like you don’t. Your kids might never see their classmates again. Like, there’s all of these things. And I feel like as a national conversation, we jumped to, you know, were there enough this and did people do that and da da da da da. And I think part of the reason why we’re so fractious as a country is because we don’t connect on a very human level. Um. And so my hope is that, you know, my hope is that we find some way to really um bring about the the human connection. One of the, disasters are always terrible, but they also bring out some of the best in us when we are supporting one another. And so I’m hopeful that we’re able to find that community again. Um. I’m also deeply, deeply worried about, you know, the disaster capitalism that will happen. Um. I was reading a an article in The Atlantic um by De’Ara’s friend Xochitl Gonzalez, and she did a really important and I think, interesting um observation about Altadena and what it means to what it meant to um the Black and Brown people who lived there as one of the first communities that allowed people of color to buy homes. And the fact that most of the homes there were owner occupied and and whatnot. Um. And she says, of course it will be rebuilt, but rebuilt for whom? Um. Who will be able to go back? We know what happens in times like these, in neighborhoods like ours where all of the insurance claims are usually denied and people are given, you know, a fraction of what their homes and belongings were worth, and they aren’t able to go back to their communities. And, you know, speculators and investors and carpetbaggers come in and build fancy condos and make a new town for new people. Um. And this seems to be, you know, the Alta the deep dive into Altadena is talking about how it was actually a very diverse community where people moved there because they wanted to be in community with each other. And um and so I’m deeply, deeply worried about what it looks like for the communities where the regular people were, um how are they where are they going to go? How are they going to be able to get back um this this stuff? This is devastating. And um and it’s not over. I was reading something today that was like right and this could the winds could pick up tomorrow and we’re right back in it. And so um I just I don’t know how people are in denial about the fact that the earth is burning. I remember um maybe in earlier this year when New York was orange because of the wildfires in Canada. Right. Like we we we’ve got to get for real about this stuff. I don’t know. It is heavy. This fire, these L.A. fires are heavy on my soul.
Myles E. Johnson: Is it cynical to say that it’s also like a little too late too? Like it’s like to me, I feel like if you live in a place that is prone to natural disasters via either via water or um or fire, and you might need an exit plan right now, God forbid, if you’re already being affected, of course. But it’s like if you are a working class person in California, it’s it’s it’s we’re kind of past the doomsday clock. Like this is just the reality that we’re in that only it just looks like the only people who are going to be able to live in places like either New York um or or uh or maybe even New Orleans or California are going to be the people who can really gamble how gamble housing it’s going to be their second or third home or that just seems like what we’re going and moving towards, or is that just, like too cynical?
De’Ara Balenger: I think what’s scary to me about the rich people argument. And this is going to be controversial. The rich people don’t have enough money to live back where they were living. So how about that? I mean, and you talk about working class, but like it now costs so much to have anything in this country that even if you have if you have you can’t just rebuild a $25 million house. Like even for the rich people, those assets were their biggest asset and it’s still millions and millions and millions of dollars. But they ain’t got it either. So I think there’s also it’s not work. This thing isn’t working for anybody. Like, it’s just not. And I think and I think and I think natural disasters and and the earth doing what it’s doing. Is is telling is is that that’s the sentiment. That’s what it’s giving me.
Myles E. Johnson: But I guess there is a difference between a $25, $25 million home and maybe you getting insurance for five million and having to replace that isn’t, I just I guess my my heart is always just going to go to the class positionalities that probably just most me or my own and my own experiences so it’s like I have, A, all the empathy for anybody who has experienced that just as a on a human level. But I always think about what happens to the people who who just don’t got it or they’re look, they’re in L.A. right now and it didn’t hit them, but they’re thinking like, what’s going to go, what’s going–
De’Ara Balenger: But Myles that’s my that is my exact point. That is my exact point. You know what I’m saying? Like, if the rich people if if the rich people don’t have enough and granted, like, I don’t listen, I’m sitting I’m doing this from Branch Avenue in Southeast, I don’t have twenty. I’m my experience doesn’t mirror rich people either. But I think from what I am exposed to in some of the circles that I am in, in in community with, it’s still, this something like this is so devastating to every economic level. I’m not talking about bi— I don’t I don’t know what. I’m sure billionaires will be fine. But I’m just saying, like people’s. I don’t think we’re necessarily set up in any sort of economic environment when it comes to insurance, etc., etc.. where people are just going to be as as they once were.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah I. So I actually don’t think this is a doomsday. I think this is a reminder that the government, if we plan right, can do well. I don’t know if you heard of the Town of Fudai in Japan. Uh. And it was this actually came out right before the fires. Is that–
De’Ara Balenger: No DeRay. We have not heard of that town.
DeRay Mckesson: But what’s great about it is there was a um–
De’Ara Balenger: So. Thank you for telling us. [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: The mayor of Fudai spent 20 years building a wall to stop a tsunami. And it was because when he was younger, there was a tsunami that came and wiped out the town. So he’s mayor. He spends $30 million building this wall for the next tsunami. And people joke him. He is like a laughing stock of the community in Fudai. He builds it, then he dies. There’s no tsunami that comes, but he spends all this money to build the highest wall because he as a kid or when he was younger, he survived a tsunami. In 2011, a tsunami comes and the only town not wiped out is Fudai. The wall survives. All his people live, he’s gone. And now he’s like a legend. But his whole life they were like, he wasted all this money. And and, you know, we haven’t had a tsunami since he was a kid and da da da da but I just think about, like some of the. This is what I mean by the government stuff. Some of the planning won’t be what you see in your lifetime to plan for the thing. But I think about some of the stories of people who did survive. It was sprinklers, it was the pool water, it was the people, you know, it was there. There was the fire retardant stuff on the side of the houses that actually did help prepare people for this in a way that was not just the brushes, which are their own problem or controlled fires. So I’m not I’m not like, I don’t think this is doomsday to me. I do think there’s a way we can plan for this stuff. [music break] Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned. There’s more to come.
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DeRay Mckesson: My news. Um. This is it was such an interesting article because ProPublica, by the way, deserves more money. They are just on it. But in Connecticut, I don’t know if you knew. I didn’t know this. That in Connecticut, there’s a law that says that the tow companies can sell your car in 15 days if you cannot claim it. So as you can imagine, there are a ton of people who are low income whose cars get towed and then they just get sold. And the car is one of their biggest assets. They need the car obviously to move around life and ProPublica did this really big study on it, and I was fascinated by it because, you know, what most people would think is that cars are being towed for traffic violations or for because the police are involved in some way. And no in Connecticut, what’s happening is that the tow companies are actually patrolling apartment complexes or like residential neighborhoods. And they can tow your car if your um tag to be in the neighborhood expires or if you’re parking like license to be on the block, you know when you like park here and it’s like you know you got to have a zone six license. If that expires, they can just tow you. And they can arbitrarily create rules that say, you know, you can only pay in cash or you have to prove that you’re the that your name is on the registration. And da da so they make all these loopholes. And in theory, the law says that when they tow your car and sell it, that the tow companies can only keep what they actually needed to house the car for that period of time. But the state in all of these years never developed a mechanism to recover the rest of the money. So the tow companies just keep it so they have a financial incentive to take your car, lock you out of being able to get it because it’s only 15 days and then uh they sell it. And I was I don’t know I was like obsessed with this. And as you can imagine. So the way the law works is that it’s only cars that they deem are worth less than $1,500. Again, they get to make up the price. And so it is mostly low income people who all of a sudden one day either had an expired tag on the block or somebody said they had an expired tag and then all of a sudden they had 15 days to get $1,000, $2,000 or whatever to get their car out. And if they don’t, then they will just get it towed. So I wanted to bring it here because I don’t think I don’t think we’ve ever talked about a DMV story in this way. And I was like, oh this is actually an interesting way that public policy penalizes people um in ways that have no public safety benefit is not like helping. Like there’s no there’s no way that this is like keeping people safer. And I wanted to bring it here.
Kaya Henderson: This feels um this is like predatory lending, right? This is it’s targeting people who are poor for being poor and um ganking them. And the the impact on these people, the number of people who have lost their jobs because they needed a car um and the tow people were like, I’m just following the law is is really pretty disgusting. It’s reprehensible. Um. And I feel like the dude who owns MyHoopty.com or whatever the name of the thing was, you better get some security because–
DeRay Mckesson: Which is literally the name of it.
Myles E. Johnson: Literally.
Kaya Henderson: Right, Right. Well, he better get himself some security, honey, because uh now we know your name, Michael Festa. And there’s going to be a whole lot of people who are not happy with the way you are doing business. Ask Luigi about it.
Myles E. Johnson: Oop. Mamma mia. Not the Luigi. [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: Not Mamma mia.
Myles E. Johnson: Um. [laugh] I automatically went to um, of course, because how my my, how my brain works. But I thought of uh Frank B. Wilderson III’s Afro pessimism um and how he argues in Afro pessimism is how kind of the exploitation, the subjugation, subjugation of people of Black people is necessary. And I thought like this is so wild, here is a flourishing business built off of the exploitation of poor, usually Black people like that was that was just I was like, oh this it just kind of clicks something in my head where I’m like, oh this, this Connecticut needs this. This is good. This is this is this is a good economic thing that relies on the the harm of poor people, you know, usually Black people. So that’s the one thing that I thought about. And then it was the second thing that I thought about was the um I guess theater’s the word of the day for me. But like, just like the the the humiliation theater the um the listening to the woman beg for her car back and he’s telling no, no, sweetheart, um hearing the stories of her not being able to get her items from the TJ Maxx um that she left in her car, her husband not having his chef knives anymore, that um there there does seem to be you know, I’m projecting a lot on this story, but but you know, I’m not I’m not a scientist. So but but um but uh uh uh how I felt in the story was some perverse enjoyment in in being able to tell a poor person no. And um yeah. Yeah. That that’s that those those are my comments on that story child
De’Ara Balenger: I think what stood out about this one for me too which I want to learn and support more is that she learned about her rights from Melissa Anderson, from her tenants union. Um. Which I’m find– I mean, you know, I’m I’m new to this, but um I’ve met a couple of organizers recently who are organizing tenants unions all across the country, particularly I met a young woman from Kansas City who was doing amazing work there um because people are just living in in all kinds of um circumstances that just don’t meet the basic rights and needs of how people should be living. And so I just thought that was an interesting thing in terms of you know how supportive a tenant union and membership in a tenant union can be all around. So that really that stuck out to me too. And hopefully we can cover a little bit more on tenants unions.
Kaya Henderson: My news this week uh takes us into Meta world. Um. If you’ve been paying attention to the news, you’ve seen that Mark Zuckerberg, CEO of Meta, has been in the news quite a bit over the last couple of days, um first because he decided to eliminate fact checkers at on Facebook and I guess his other platforms and move towards a community forum or something. I don’t know. People are going to decide what’s the truth um and then uh sort of further interest around him disbanding DEI initiatives at Facebook at Meta. Um. And I found an article in Axios that I thought was really interesting. It’s called Behind the Curtain, Meta’s Make Up with MAGA Map. And basically what the article asserts is that Meta has created, Mark Zuckerberg has created a template for companies to follow to get in with the incoming presidential administration. And I thought this was interesting. And I brought it to the podcast because I think sometimes um as citizens, we experience things as one thing happening at a time when in fact um sometimes there is a concerted strategy and a concerted effort. And this article lays out uh this methodical approach to Mark Zuckerberg currying favor with the incoming administration. Um. And and the article predicts that this is a formula that more companies will follow. Here is the formula. Put a friend of Trump on your board. In Mata’s case, it was the Ultimate Fighting Championship CEO Dana White. Next promote a prominent Republican as their chief global affairs officer, Joel Kaplan is the person at Meta who’s succeeding a liberal, Nick Clegg, who was the former president of global affairs. Allying your philosophy with Trump’s on a big ticket public issue. For Zuckerberg, it was free speech over fact checking. Announce your philosophical change on Fox News hoping Trump is watching. Um. And apparently he was because Trump’s quote was Meta, Facebook, I think they’ve come a long way. And the next step is to take a big public stand on a favorite issue for Trump and MAGA, which in this case was rolling back the DEI programs. Amplify your stand in an interview with Fox Digital News, go on Joe Rogan’s podcast and blast President Biden for censorship and light up social media with all the fireworks. Um. And what it reminds us is that Zuckerberg visited Trump at Mar-a-Lago in November, and apparently after that visit, he pulled together his team and he some of these things he had been thinking about doing previously. But after his visit to Mar-a-Lago, he pulled together a team and said, these are the things that I want to happen. He insisted on no leaks for this strategy. And uh within weeks, all of these shifts happen. And the article asserts that every company in America is watching and we can expect companies to copy this playbook. Um. And um and it closes with a quote from Alex Bru– Alex Bruesewitz, who is the CEO of X Strategies LLC and a trusted advisor to the Trump Campaign on Alternative Media. He says companies are either, A, finally recognizing that wokeness is a cancer, or B, strategically adapting to the political climate and pandering to Republicans now that we are in power. Only time will tell which is their true motivation. Regardless, MAGA is winning and will continue to win. I thought this was fascinating. I thought uh I think the idea of a blueprint is a winning strategy for Republicans. Um. I think that um it it intimates that Elon Musk sort of laid out the strategy initially, but to watch people, to watch the tech giants who supported Biden in no way, shape or form for his uh inauguration or for his new administration to watch them completely and totally twist themselves in knots um for this incoming administration is interesting to me. But the real interest is that this is all strategic, this is all coordinated, this is all planned. This is all intentional. And I wonder what you might think about this.
Myles E. Johnson: I love the map. Stan the map to let people know what the what the plans are. I again, I don’t know how in step out of step I am with like with what groups I’m in with this opinion. Um. But I predict and I’m probably out of step with it. But my opinion is I kind of like the I like Mark’s uh rollback of stuff. I like um I think one thing reflecting on the uh vice president Harris and like the last election is how sometimes we tend to desire to suppress things or tame things. And I know you’re like, well, this is fact or this is fiction or whatever, but that’s just not the world we live in. And those ideas are still finding power and still finding voice and censoring them on Facebook or X or Instagram or anything. It just doesn’t do shit. It just it just doesn’t matter. And we I feel like social media needs to be a place where just like when I when I was walking the streets um of Brooklyn or New York City at night, there needs to be the same type of alarm about what’s going on when you go on the Internet. And I just think trying to I just think trying to, trying to muffle it or silence it is just is is just is a waste of time, is a waste of time. And I also like that Mark did it. And Mark was so in line with so with so many seemingly like neo liberal ideas and that he shifted because he went where power goes because that’s what money does. It goes where power goes. So if uh Kamala Harris was the president right now and we were in this the future is Brown and and and female. In this moment, he would have shifted his policies to align with that. And I think it’s healthy for us to know what we’re actually dealing with. And, you know, four years is long but four years is also short. And I just hope that our memory is um is long. And we remember where people were when power shifted and that it wasn’t their power is not aligned with a ethic. It’s just aligned with where power is coming from.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, I don’t know. You know, I do. I do think that even in this conversation, I think that the even participating in the idea of free speech and censorship is actually a right wing talking point. I think that that is they did a really good job with convincing people. Even to what you said, Myles, that this is about freedom of expression or the idea that all the ideas should be out is that Twitter was not a like bastion of liberal ideas. And I say that as, friends with most of those people. They were running a business that was like, if you let all this crazy stuff on, we won’t get advertisers. They were they were like, it was it was simple math about like if you say kill all the Black people. Yeah, that is like morally bad. But also advertisers literally will not be on the platform. So I think it was like a I think it was a business decision. And um and, you know, they don’t believe in. So, Myles, I don’t know. I’m actually shocked by your read on this because I they don’t I think that it’s going to be really interesting when Facebook and Instagram uh start to platform people who say ideas that would hurt and kill people that look like us, that are currently unable, like they get taken down or get um at least sort of checked and they will be flagged. They will not be flagged anymore unless sort of people do it in groups. And I remember having a conversation with Mark about this because he Mark has always been about like AI is going to check it, at least with community notes on Twitter. There, Twitter is like built for a lot of people to see posts. I don’t know what that’s going to look like on Instagram. I don’t know. So I think that I think that people are going to get hurt really quickly with this Meta thing. Uh. And I am nervous about it. And I don’t think this is about censorship or free speech. I think there are standards. So even how, you know, you can say the N-word freely on um on Twitter now, but you actually can’t say cisgender. Right. Like that is not this was never about free speech. This is actually like another way to um change who can talk. And, you know, Elon is pissed because they lost all those advertisers. So he’s trying to sue the advertisers. But I think that even participating in this idea that um that somehow the platforms are like left wing and hooded and or something is sort of bizarre to me because I actually think they were just making business decisions. And Mark is interesting because if you heard him, he also is like all these people leaving the platform he’s going to replace them with AI people you’re like, well, you know, that’ll be uh. What does that look like? But I do. I think just like with Twitter, I think that people are going to get hurt um in real life because of what happens when, because of this moderation change. And I was actually shocked that um that Mark not only did this on the platforms, but immediately got rid of all the queer affinity groups at Meta in one fell swoop they are all gone. The LGBTQ and trans um sort of icons that were in the Dms and all those imagery, they have been removed from the platform effective immediately. And I actually think that this is going to be a scary time because especially with the whatever’s happening with TikTok, and whatever’s happening with Twitter, Facebook is still where a lot of and Instagram and WhatsApp, all platforms that Mark owns, I think will be unregulated to such a wild degree um that people will get hurt.
De’Ara Balenger: DeRay you reminded me of Karen Attiah wrote an op ed this past week about her interaction with a Black AI. I don’t know what you call the person. Um. Internet person on Meta and it–
Myles E. Johnson: Were they real?
De’Ara Balenger: –was no. It’s like an A, it’s like a bot, it’s like it’s not a bot because it’s like it’s a profiled thing on on Facebook. I think she was on Facebook um and [laugh] but it’s like it’s also like the specificity of this AI person because it’s supposed to be a Black woman, but a biracial Black woman like Black on one side, like Irish on the other side.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay, Alicia Keys.
De’Ara Balenger: And who grew up and and but it, Karen asked questions like, well, how do you celebrate your Black heritage. And the AI thing is like, oh well, my mom makes award winning fried chicken. And then I mean, it is [laugh] and then Karen asked she’s like, well, who made you? She’s like, who made you? What’s the makeup like? The makeup of the folks that made you. She’s like, oh yeah it yes. Every, you know, everybody on the AI team that makes me and others. There are no Black people. Um. And which and then the AI person says, which I know is a problem. Like it’s so interesting too, like the the sort of prompts and transitions that sort of denote sort of like a wokeness or whatever. But y’all have to read the piece because it is it is actually hysterical, but only funny because it’s really offensive. Um. But it’s that’s what that is ringing true with with all of this. And I guess that’s the other thing that’s sort of confusing to me. And I guess it makes sense that it’s confusing because I still don’t understand social media, but having these AI profiles. Like how? What is the point of having those folks and interacting with them? I guess from my perspective, I don’t I don’t we don’t even have to answer that. I’m sure there’s a there’s a smart business, innovative answer to it, but I don’t know. That’s just the question I left reading her article with um which was really funny.
Myles E. Johnson: Um. I don’t want to make it seem like my opinion, my read on it is condoning anything that’s going to happen on these platforms. I just think that the suppression of the people attracted the people leading, the people attracted to the platforms. I just think that that just doesn’t do, I just don’t think that does anything. And I think that um those platforms should be perverted into whatever the audience and the leaders want it to be. And from that standpoint, we figure out what it like, figure out what we want to do. And I think that we’re not going to be able to um like the imperialist white supremacist capitalist patriarchs are in power. And I think uh and and and trying to tame it or neuter it via social media or via rules just doesn’t work. And I’m just like, yo, just just create the monster, create the Frankenstein. And that’s where I’m at with it, because I think suppressing the creation of Frankenstein doesn’t stop the monsters from coming. It just keeps them in the dark. And I’m just kind of like, that didn’t work.
DeRay Mckesson: No, I don’t know. Maybe this is just one where we disagree. I think that banning the libs of TikTok, which is actually doxing people, making people move out of their homes, getting people hurt in real life is like a real thing. That’s a policy decision. They were banned when Jack ran Twitter. That was a good thing. They got unbanned and literally are wreaking havoc in people’s real lives. That to me is not suppression by saying they shouldn’t be able to do that on the platform. The guy who threatened to kill me was banned. He was the first person permanently banned from Twitter. He’s back on the platform. So I don’t I I I struggle to think that that is like to name that as sort of some suppression. I think that there should be standards in the same way that if you were in my classroom and said, I want to kill people, I’d be like, you can’t be in my classroom. And I don’t think I wouldn’t let you be there because of some like weird free speech argument.
Myles E. Johnson: I guess. I guess my my big thing is the lack of ethics of these people. To me, that’s where the that’s what I’m naming as um what I’m naming as suppression. And I think that now that we see oh this person is willing to put somebody who threatened your life back on this uh this platform. Now we know where you stand Now we know what your ethics are. Now we know uh uh what now, now, now we know. And what are we going to do for that? Be it, I’m off of social media. I’m going to a different social media platform that has those ethics that align with mine. But I think um–
DeRay Mckesson: I heard you. It wasn’t about.
Myles E. Johnson: That’s thats my thing.
DeRay Mckesson: I understand.
Myles E. Johnson: Oh got it.
DeRay Mckesson: I’m just saying I think that’s going to have real consequences that will be really dangerous in real life for people. And–
Myles E. Johnson: Oh yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: –I am willing to say that that I’m unwilling to support that as a theoretical thing because of the harm I think it will have in real life. So I don’t think–
Myles E. Johnson: Got it.
DeRay Mckesson: –it is a net positive theoretically, because I would rather you be pissed and blocked from being on the internet and we just have to deal with your substack or you making Truth Social, which is actually what happened last time when Trump got banned. He made his own platform and and that was sort of their own world. But Libs of TikTok is probably my my best case example that like real havoc in real people’s lives. And she is back. And even with the fires, she was one, the libs of TikTok account was one of the main people saying that the reason why the fires were there was because of DEI. And because the fire chief was gay. And then all of a sudden that was like a thing that people, it wasn’t just a stupid comment on Twitter. It was a thing that people were contending with in real life. And I think that I think that that is dangerous in a way that we could avoid. [music break] Don’t go anywhere. More Pod Save the People is coming.
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De’Ara Balenger: I wish I had some uplifting news for us today, but it’s just silly, ridiculous. Continue. Actually, it’s a fine continuation of what we’re talking about, actually, because. So I’m in DC. I’m watching more local DC news and I. [sigh] I saw this. Um. I saw this. So essentially. D.C. public schools have, there’s been a complaint filed against D.C. public schools over a student affinity group. And the complaint was filed by parents defending education. And it’s a parents rights group. [sigh] Of course, you all got to look on their website and I’m just like, good Lord, good Lord. Why? Look, Kaya must be very familiar with this with this particular group. Um.
Kaya Henderson: I was not familiar until I saw your article. And then like you, I was like, let me see who these people are.
De’Ara Balenger: Let me see who this is.
Kaya Henderson: And so I went on to see who the people were. And um and I was shocked to recognize that I know one of the people.
De’Ara Balenger: No Kaya.
Kaya Henderson: I really do. Um. She’s not like a friend, but she is an–
De’Ara Balenger: They’re living among us.
Kaya Henderson: She is.
De’Ara Balenger: Listen.
Kaya Henderson: Yeah yeah. She is a person in the education reform sort of circle and conversation. Um. We we yeah um we have engaged with one another on Twitter. We’ve spoken at conferences and whatnot. And I had no idea that this was her perspective. And I was shocked to, I guess, learn about parents defending education. But I’ll let you tell your story because it’s an interesting one.
De’Ara Balenger: I mean, the it’s so it’s a long story short, a flier went into backpacks to go home and the flier was if you are a young woman and this is for elementary school kids, I think it’s like first through fifth graders. And if you are Black or African or African-American, biracial, nonbinary or part of the African diaspora, please come come to these meetings and just be your little Black cute self. So what happened is, is evidently this this organization got hold of these fliers and they’re doing and mind you they’re they’re filing these complaints all across the country, it looks like. Right. Um. And so they’re saying that that this affinity group violates Title nine. Um. And it’s unconscionable that an affinity group such as this one exists in a Washington, DC public school. And I mean, that’s it really. I mean, there’s that, that that’s what’s happening. So this is like an active thing that’s currently happening. I I Isurmise it’s going to continue to happen, particularly as the administration changes and who knows is going to be leading um the Department of Education. Um. But I just wanted to bring it because this is really going to start impacting lives. And obviously I know that. But I think when I when I think about first first through fifth graders and how important it is where we can to create space for their identity and for them to feel good about who they are, it just it sort of broke my heart, I guess this this complaint is where I’m where I’m going with it because it’s not just us grown ups that are going to have to deal with this, obviously. But it’s it’s it’s so many, so many young folks. Honestly. And so I think the other thing that is a little scary to me about this is just like the scale of these federal complaints and knowing. Like we actually don’t know. And maybe there maybe there’s an organization that is working on this, just knowing the scale of how many schools are are, you know, how many, how many of these complaints have been filed. Um. And then also, like just what is capacity for for schools to be able to be or cities to be able to respond to these complaints? So I just wanted to bring it because I don’t know, I just picture the little room where these kids are going and it’s like Maya Angelou’s face on the wall. And I just. I can’t anyway, this that’s what I got for y’all.
Myles E. Johnson: Soujourner Truth. I don’t know why that felt right, too.
De’Ara Balenger: I mean, and listen.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah.
De’Ara Balenger: Ida B. Wells.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. Um. This the my my my segregationalist ness jumped out [laugh] because sometimes I really do think about it. I’m like wow we really put our trust, our Black educational destiny in the mouths and hands of the same system that didn’t want us to know how to read or write or do math. And now we are curious about these kind of symptoms of that kind of um integration where you can’t do things that to me, seemed so um like, necessary. You know, like even when I uh I didn’t when I read the article, I couldn’t necessarily um see like if any of these places were like, PWIs too or whatnot, I couldn’t see the makeup of all these places. But I’m assuming that if you need something like this, the makeup of this place is you’re Black and it’s a minority. I’m assuming that like like a majority Black school wouldn’t need a program like this. And it yeah, it’s I don’t, I’m just kind of just at this stage where I’m like, you know what we’re in the we, we, we gave our education and our children to, to, to, to to the, to the, to the monster systems. And it is and these type of situations are just going to happen. And they feel so you know, we talk about this stuff a lot so it feels like oh a little thing here. Or not a little thing, but a thing here or a thing there or a thing there. But what when I just look at it all together, it’s just like, damn, we really [laugh] the Black Panthers were on to something. We really need something separate because at any moment, anything, you build on that place to stand is just available to be gutted. You know, that’s just the reality of these situations. Um. And, of course, just on a human level, that just breaks my heart because Black power, Black empowerment, Black um understanding of creativity is so essential to being able to see yourselves in different ways. I don’t know if I would have wrote anything if I didn’t read a Black person or see a Black person or have a oh doing it or have a home that centered those things. And I see the gap trying to be filled. But you know the America does not want empowered Black people. They want Black people who are assimilated and confident, which is different than empowered in their Blackness. And this is just a symptom of that desire, in my opinion.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, I think, you know, the organizer in me is like um just reminded that it doesn’t take a ton of people to change systems, that this is a small group of people that is not representative of, I would say the majority of parents in D.C. public schools. I would say most people probably aren’t even think like whose kids are not in this group, probably have never even thought about it, saw the flier and were like, move on to the next thing. Um. So that’s like the just a reminder. And I say that because, uh you know, sometimes I think we forget that we don’t need a million people to fight back, to defend the things that we care about that like we can also get a small group of people together who can have a ton of power. I think the second thing is, you know, when we think about like white supremacy’s last stand. These are the hallmarks of it. Is the like a refusal, like they want you to be so disconnected from yourself that you can’t resist. Like that is a part of the strategy. It’s like not only will we give you subpar everything and treat you bad and da da da, but they want you not to be able to think critically about the past, about who you are, about what you deserve. Like that is a part of the strategy. And the way you do it is by limiting anything that allows that to happen. So it is it is why you ban the books. It’s why you ban the Black girl VC thing. It’s why you ban the affinity groups like and it’s why you let the Atlantic publish an article that says history shouldn’t be guilty because it was just inevitable and you’re like, well I don’t know you know if I said that about some other countries around the world, that genocide was inevitable or whatever lord knows they’d be ready to tear the whole company down. So I say all that to say that, like the disruption of people, of Black people’s relationship with themselves is not new. That this was a political strategy during slavery. I am always reminded of the slave Bible that literally removed every single reference to resistance. It still exists in the Museum of the Bible in DC. It’s one of the few copies that you can see of it. But this idea of disconnecting Black people from any sense of history, what they don’t have on their side now is the Internet. Is that like all of it, you know, now you, people can just be connected in different ways, but De’Ara, to your point and why you brought it up, as you said, is that there’s something particularly insidious when you do this to children, that when you disrupt children’s sense of self, it really is just a damning thing. So I hope they lose. And I actually think the long tail of Trump won’t only be him in office, but it will be what he did to the courts.
Kaya Henderson: So first of all, thank you, DeRay, for the reminder that it does not take many people to make moves like this because that um that is empowering and it deals with my sense of outrage and gall at this at this like, let me read you this flier because it’s not like, come on, Black girls and join the you know, the Black militia where we gonna take down, you know, the man. It is–
Myles E. Johnson: I would like to hear I would like to see it, though.
Kaya Henderson: This is first through fifth Graders and the flier says a weekly afterschool club that focuses on empowerment, build confidence, leadership, and self-esteem, creativity. Enjoy fun, creative projects that encourage self-expression, community, connect with peers in a safe, supportive space. It don’t even say we going to teach Black history. It just says, come have fun, build confidence, leadership. And these organizers are using what looks like a pretty innocuous afterschool program that is targeted to a particular um group of students because there’s all kinds of evidence that tells you that bringing like people, groups of like people together have benefits for young people, but that this agenda is being levied against even the most innocuous things, right? Like and so and that these people don’t live in Washington DC. who are levying this. That these people, that these people have no idea that that these people are seeking to make policy about community that they don’t belong to. Um. Many of them have never been to the schools or the community where, you know, this need is being met. And like this is the playbook thing. Again, if you go to their website, they have an indoctrination map. They are um pulling articles about any about any spending or they have filters on the side. Do you want to learn about critical race theory? Do you want to learn about affinity groups? Do you want to see if your district is doing DEI initiatives? There’s a whole piece about, you know, LGBTQ issues and a specific piece about trans issues. Um. There are all of these things that this group of parents have decided is not what they want their kids to learn. And you don’t get to tell other parents what their kids should and should not learn. That is all. And so to DeRay’s point, I am waiting for the NAACP, the Urban League, some group of committed parents to organize and push back against this because it will not take much in the same way that it’s not taken much for them to run this playbook across states, all over the country. Um. We need to be mounting opposition to these things because other people do not get to dictate. People ask all the time, how have other countries turned their education systems around? Most of them it has been a centralized thing from the government where they have they’ve made decisions and policies that affect all schools That can’t ever happen in America because we are a federalist society. Local decisions are made at a local level. Schools are the bedrock of that. And so your local school board gets to decide the rules and policies of your community because we recognize that people in Washington or in some far away community can’t make decisions for those of us living together. And so why does this group of empowered white people get to decide what a Black community in Washington– [banter]
De’Ara Balenger: And and some Latinos, Kaya.
Myles E. Johnson: Because we live in an anti-Black–
De’Ara Balenger: Some Latinos.
Myles E. Johnson: We live in an anti-black society.
Kaya Henderson: Well, there there we are.
Myles E. Johnson: White people white people have been deciding, white people–
De’Ara Balenger: Pledge allegiance to the red, black, and green.
Myles E. Johnson: White people have been deciding that’s the Electoral College. There’s a whole bunch of there’s a whole bunch of white people deciding the destiny of all of us who shouldn’t be deciding it, so that they they right in step with America. I feel like sometimes it’s us who’s out of step.
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Myles E. Johnson: I’m going to say that. I’m going to say this with you know, I didn’t I didn’t know her personally, but I am going to still say this with levity and joy, because I think there’s only one way you interact with the work of Dada Masilo. I hope I’m pronouncing that name right. Who is a South African dancer and choreographer who passed away at the age of 39 um after a short illness. Um. She, A, I wanted to bring her to the podcast because I always want to honor specifically Black folks, Black women, Black queer people who I think probably would not have been heard of by um a lot of people um who unless you have specialized interest. But um also just because I think I’ve been thinking in my head, what is the manifestation of this kind of Black inside of a European colonial situation paradox. And she has such the solution arrived in her body in her dance because she has this interpretation of Swan Lake, where she integrates traditional African dance with the Swan Lake um Ballet and she unravels it. And she and she hits percussive rhythms when she’s when she’s dancing. And I think to myself, I’m like, that’s what I that’s what I think I want to do. And what so many Black folks want to do is, okay, we’ve been given this Black heritage and culture. We’ve also been giving this kind of colonial reality and how can I use my talents, my body to disrupt it? And she did that. And um it’s easy for me to say because I was not her friend or her family, just a fan. But I but something inside of uh my spirit and my ancestral knowing feels, um [sigh] I think when sometimes when I see certain people leave early, I think because their mission is complete. And when I see her dance and when I see her influence and her radical influence on creativity and on um and on deconstructing and and pushing against kind of uh these these uh speaking of like colonial pageantry, but these things like ballet and using her body as like graffiti. Right? That’s what Basquiat did. He put the graffiti on the canvas and said, this is art. She said, oh I’m putting the African dance in the ballet and this is now fine art. And um I just wanted to bring bring her. I’m I’m getting nervous and teary and teary, just thinking about it, because 39 is so young and there are so many people who um there’s so many people who search kind of their whole lives to disrupt in the ways that she found how to disrupt in such a short amount of time. And I find that impressive and inspiring. And although it was not a long life, it was a beautiful life and a life that will um reverberate throughout my own life, in a, in every in all creatives lives. And um if you have not watched that, please go watch um her rendition of Swan Lake and pass it on and learn about her. And if you did already know about her because you are so sophisticated and cultured. Pass it on to somebody else, because this is the way that we’re going to keep many Black folks’ artistic legacies alive is through word of mouth because we are fighting um all types of algorithms and and and education systems and that do not want to um highlight us. So we really have to rely on that um inner griot to say, no, did you know this, this, this, this, this, this person did this? Um. So yeah, I wanted to bring um attention to her. I wanted to um say her name. I wanted to honor her and also make, offer specifically to the Black people um listening to me, specifically the Black people who are creative. What are the ways that you can use your own creativity, your own body, your own imagination to disrupt the kind of colonial prisons we’ve been offered? And um and how can we contort it to uh to to be something that fits our our hips and our rhythms, and our beats, you know? Um. Yeah.
Kaya Henderson: Um, thank you for bringing this to the podcast, Myles. I did not know her and um, and so I appreciate expanding my view. There is a quote that I wanted to read from the article that you shared that really resonated with me. Um. And it’s it goes, deeply respectful of European and contemporary music traditions, but unafraid to go bare on stage and voice her own opinions. She effectively changed the shape and appearance of contemporary dance in South Africa. And I think that um maybe this is taking me back to the Obama Trump moment that we talked about in the beginning. I think it is, I think we have a there is a way to be respectful of things, but to not shrink ourselves into those things and to bring our full selves into everything that we do. That is what she did. Um. She harnessed the existing, you know, cultural zeitgeist, the ballet, the European musical traditions. And she said, I’m African, and so I’m going to do it my way. And I for me, authenticity is like a motivating value. And so to be able to watch people bend tradition, to allow authenticity to come out, that that’s the like if I could give one gift to our children, if I could ensure that education did any one thing, it is to help people understand existing constructs and understand how to bring their full selves into whatever it is they are doing. So thank you for this living example of well, for this recently lived example of that.
DeRay Mckesson: I didn’t know anything about her. Thank you. I learned.
De’Ara Balenger: I didn’t either. And now I’m bummed that I didn’t get to see her alive. Um. But My– and I watched the like watched some of the YouTube of that performance Myles, so thank you because when she gets to popping and locking I’m like, oh yes that tutu is doing things I’ve never seen the tutu do. Okay. But thank you, Myles and this is incredible. I can’t wait to dig in more to learn, um learn and spread more about her. [music break]
DeRay Mckesson: Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning into Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app, and we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media, it’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Executive produced by me, and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger, and Myles E. Johnson.
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