As Parliament sits for Easter Recess, Nish and Coco dive into the PSUK mailbag to answer your burning questions.

There’s the serious political questions – who are the real progressive party? How can we fight Reform? Should we all just leave the UK??

But there’s some curveballs, too – like what’s up with Bob Dylan’s instagram posting? Boxers or briefs? And most importantly… Has Nish Kumar ever eaten a pot noodle in the bath?

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TRANSCRIPTS

Nish Kumar Hi this is Pod Save the UK, I’m Nish Kumar.

Coco Khan And I’m Coco Kahn, so today’s the day we’re digging into the mailbag to answer your questions!

Nish Kumar All of life is here, from the wisdom of Bob Dylan to whether we should all just emigrate.

Coco Khan The only two questions of math

Nish Kumar The only two questions that matter.

Coco Khan Don’t worry, we’re not going anywhere. We’ve got all these questions to answer and we have questions on whether it’s worth voting, what is the UK’s most progressive party and whether university is actually worth the cost.

Nish Kumar Is diversity and inclusion dead, and is the best way to defeat reform to give them power? Counter-intuitive, but clever, maybe?

Coco Khan We cannot guarantee any useful answers.

Nish Kumar So look, thanks so much to everyone who sent in questions for this mailbag special. We’ve been wanting to do this for a while now only because we get so many great questions and comments into the mailbag every week, and every week someone does something incredibly stupid and all the mail bag stuff gets pushed out so that we can talk about it in detail. So look let’s get into it.

Coco Khan So the first question is from someone we know, Nish. So Dr. Nikesh Shukla, our pal, asks, is there an event that politicized you? I think a lot about the murder of Stephen Lawrence, one of the first news stories that really made a huge impact on me. It led me towards engaging with the news and anti-racism activism. It made a big impact on my as a 13-year-old. Did either of you have a similar moment?

Nish Kumar So for full context, we do know Dr. Nick Eshergla, and it is very funny that the first question has come from some and it does sort of suggest like a benevolent uncle who has decided that he needs to send in a question just in case no one else does.

Coco Khan It’s very much like the listeners must be thinking, oh, you didn’t get any questions. You didn’t get any and it’s your mate. Oh, that’s sweet.

Nish Kumar Yeah. And I mean, the case that he’s talking about is obviously, it is absolutely horrific. It’s an 18 year old black British kid from South East London who was murdered in a racist hate grime. And it led to a huge examination about British racism and also racism within the police force because of the subsequent inquest into the murder. It’s certainly something that I remember I was very frightened by. I was about eight years old when it happened. It happened in 1993. And it happened very, very close to where I grew up. It definitely was something that, you know, very, very much scared me. I wouldn’t go so far as to say it was a politicizing event for me. Maybe I was slightly too young to really frame it in those terms, but it definitely was that scared the hell out of me. You know, the, the lesson was that, you know you could be murdered and there was a chance that the police won’t investigate it properly because of institutional racism on their part. Koko, would you say that there was like a moment like that, that definitely led you to be engaged with politics?

Coco Khan I don’t think there was like a single moment. I mean, I was also really little when the murder of Stephen Lawrence happened. I learned about it a lot later. I was a teenager by then. I remember actually the lawyer for Stephen Lawrence’s family was a South Asian guy and I remember thinking at the time like, solidarity is really cool. But there were loads of stories when we were growing up that had an impact, you know, obviously Iraq War had an, 9-11 had an. But if I’m completely honest, I think the things that really politicized me were actually much more the smaller things, the quotidian things, you know. Grew up in social housing, you really felt like, you know, if something changed in the government, it would impact your life really, really quickly. You’d get the letter through the door about the change, you know, you grew up feeling a lot closer to policy changes, I suppose. And, and in good and good and bad ways, you know, I remember scary things happening in terms of deaths and changes around single parents, but then also, you know, getting a letter through the post that no one expected saying we’re doing something nice for children from low income backgrounds. And that being a kind of wonderful thing. So yeah, I’d say it was probably the smaller things rather than the big ones. What about you?

Nish Kumar Know if there’s like a single event I can boil it down to. My parents are pretty agitated political people. The agitation is not exclusively limited to politics as well, I should say that. They’re pretty across the board agitated people. They actually don’t drink anything like as much coffee as you would assume if you met them. But yeah, my household is pretty engaged with the news and politics. So I think there’s always been this kind of Herman Rumble of politics as a kind of big part of your everyday life. I think in terms of the things that shaped my politics, obviously, like 9-11 and the Iraq War, those two things are the kind of racist fallout that followed. The killing of John Charles de Menezes, again, in South London. This was actually by police. This was a Brazilian guy who was suspected on what turned out to be absolutely no evidence whatsoever of being involved in terrorist activities and was killed on two platforms in south london. Again, is something that very much kind of shook me out of any sense I might have had that politics doesn’t have a role to play in my life. A friend of mine always says that the root of your anger is the 2008 financial crisis. And I would say that is probably true. So again, that’s a later event for me. I was already somebody that was very interested and engaged in politics. I’d done a lot of, you know, studying of the Labour Party in school modules and then university modules and elective university modules, but I think 2008. The fallout of that financial crisis. Only because I spent so much time at school studying the Wall Street crash and the depression in the 1930s and how that had huge implications and led directly to the rise of the Nazi party. It was such an important event for me and like the ways that that happened and the lack of regulation around financial markets. Then in 2008, to see that happen again and to see… Over the next sort of 15 years, that not lead to the kind of sweeping changes that brought in the post-war consensus and led to the establishment of the NHS and the welfare state in the United Kingdom. To sort of instead see that all we’ve seemed to have learned from that is that inevitably leads to a rise in far-right politics is really a great source of despair for me.

Coco Khan All credit to you for like when it happened in 2008, you sort of cotton in there because if I’m completely honest, I still out here 2009 thinking it was 2006.

Nish Kumar It’s just because we’ve spent so much time fucking studying the Great Depression. So to see it happen again, you’re like, this is bananas. Like this is absolutely unfathomable that the exact same thing could happen again. So, yeah, I guess that is like a later source of my increased politicization.

Coco Khan I remember the No More Page 3 campaign. That was one that I got involved in as a, was I a sixth former? It was around that time I got very, very interested in the media as a vehicle for political change, but also understanding how the media can be a vehicle for regressive and repressive ideas as well. So maybe, maybe that could be another one I would add to my list.

Nish Kumar Okay, so here’s the next question from someone we don’t know for the first time the name given is Matt It could be someone we know call Matt. We don’t Matt raises the question. Who are the left-leaning or more precisely? Progressive alternative now given that the Labour Party is the Tory light party Which political party is the custodians of progressive politics?

Coco Khan God, that’s a really hard one. I guess, I suppose my first thought is, well, what do we define as progressive? Do we mean economically left? Do we means socially progressive? The way this question is framed is so there’s only two parties, but actually there’s, there’s probably, there are seven big ones. If you live in Scotland, obviously you’ve got the SMP, you’ve got Plymouth in Wales. It’s a very difficult one to answer. I’m not sure.

Nish Kumar I would say that the amount of variations on this question that we received is something that probably the Labour Party should be concerned about. I think the idea that a kind of loss of identity for the Labour party as the kind of custodians of progressive politics is something that in the long term it should be absolutely concerned by, and there has been a sort of fragmenting of the progressive vote across. The Labour Party, the Green Party, the Liberal Democrats, the SNP, Plaid Cymru in Wales, even Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland have had massive electoral increases in the last decade. And the fact that a lot of progressive people are turning their back on the Labour Party or feel that the Labour party has turned their back on them is something that the Labour party should be genuinely, genuinely concerned by. We criticize the Labour part out of love for it. I know we criticize it a lot on the show. We criticize it out of understanding of the realities of the electoral system in this country. I do also think the Labour Party should be looking into electoral reform. I also think the Labour party should be more willing to work with other parties that at least share some of its loose political aspirations. You notice that the Conservative Party and Reform are very happy to work together. I mean, the 2019 election win for Boris Johnson was essentially delivered through an informal arrangement. Nigel Farage, the Brexit party, wouldn’t necessarily stand people or would stand weaker candidates in seats that the Conservative incumbent or the Conservative challenger was vulnerable at. So the right has absolutely no problems in working with each other. The left, we just love infighting. We’re addicted to it. It’s our favorite, favorite thing is just fighting amongst ourselves.

Coco Khan So would the answer be then, you know, to the question, which part is the home of progressives? Is it that progressives are homeless or is it that we have multiple homes?

Nish Kumar I think that there’s a possibility that progressive voters these days have multiple homes. I think that there are a lot of people that are naturally gravitating towards the Green Party. I think in Scotland that migration has already happened. It will be interesting to see how it plays out over the next few years with the SNP. But what I would say is that for the Labour Party, it should be a source of concern that your natural voting base is starting to wonder what your real values are. And I think that’s actually the most important. Of this question that Matt has asked.

Coco Khan Absolutely. Actually that that leads us on quite nicely to a question on voting. We had a few people write into us about voting saying, what’s the point of it? What’s the points of voting if the two main political parties in the electoral system that we have are so similar? Is there any point in even bothering if we’re going to get the same policies with a different person delivering the speeches?

Nish Kumar Well, I mean, I would always say, I think I’m an idealist in terms of representative politics. And I still believe that, you know, I hate to sound like the oldest man in the world, but this is a thing that people fought and died for you to have as a right. I also understand that people feel alienated from politics when the principal political parties sound the same, but that alienation only ends up benefiting. The worst elements of politics. The far right benefits when people turn away on mass from participatory democracy. There’s so many different interpretations of why Donald Trump won in 2024 in America, but one that I think is very important to register is that in the 2024 US election, Trump only increased his absolute number of votes by about three million voters, which in a country of this population size is… Essentially almost a rounding error. The democratic vote collapses from around 81 million votes in 2020 to 75 million votes, in 2024. So this is a story of not turning out your base and it’s the responsibility of both the voters to actually engage with the political parties and also with political parties to engage voters. And so I know that they often seem like they’re all the same, but sometimes those. Minor differences can end up having major consequences for ordinary people in the country. The Trump presidency is going to have major, major consequences. And I also think that some of the responsibility for differentiating yourselves from the other guys is down to the politicians. And there is a responsibility that in the Uk, the Labour Party has to show what government can do for people. This is a five-year window to re-engage a populace with democracy, and I don’t think you’re going to do that by… Sneering at your natural voter base and at a policy level, providing more of the same. Labour came to power on a change ticket. They constantly said, we need to change, change, change. And now so far, what they’ve delivered is a lot of the same austerity. They need to be re-examining particularly their economic policies.

Coco Khan I also am a believer in voting. I’m not going to hector anyone who decides they don’t want to do it. That’s, that’s fine. That’s that’s a call. I personally think there is power in it. I think that it, you know, this is the system that we have. And if we want change right now, this a tool in our box. But I do think there are other tools. And so my only reservation about a question about, is it worth voting or not, is that sometimes I think. A subliminal message in that question is not doing anything, giving up, checking out of politics completely, and I really don’t like that whatsoever. If you don’t feel you have an option for voting, that’s fine. If tactical voting, where you know it’s not really about you believing in them anyway, it’s just making a decision based on that short cycle. If none of those things appeal, then there are plenty of other ways to get involved with politics. So what’s the point of doing it? Well, I guess that’s up to you, but there is always a point in doing something. And as long as you’re doing something, then I guess we can. I’m happy. I won’t have to come around your house and shake my fist at you. So Debbie has a fiendish strategy for fighting reform. It’s quite high risk though, I have to say. So she says the Senate elections are coming up next year and the reform party seem to have a worrying amount of traction here in Wales and we might well be faced with our first non-Labour government since devolution. As much as I do not want to see them in power, do you think a reform government Wales would spur on the right in the rest of the UK, or… Provide an opportunity for them to crash and burn before the next general election. That is so high risk. My goodness me.

Nish Kumar Like, I’m sorry, that is too high risk. I don’t want reform anywhere near politics, but I would argue just, I am not willing to sacrifice Wales as a country to make a wider point about reform. I do not know how you feel about this, Goko.

Coco Khan No, no, I also don’t want to sacrifice Wales. Also, I just think that the free ride reform and its lot are given, particularly Nigel Farage. They probably could crash and burn and no one would even hear about it anyway. You know what I mean? So then it’s just be, you know, a disaster for Wales and wouldn’t even get the desired outcome. So I think I think when we’re not on board with this, Debbie, no, playing fast and loose here.

Nish Kumar Like, reform out of power have shown you enough indications that they should not be put in charge of absolutely anything. One of their MPs has just been suspended for threatening, allegedly, to beat up the chairman of the party, okay? They managed to lose one of their five MPs. Nigel Farage is an MP who has been essentially absent without leave in his constituency, He spent more time in the United States. That he has in his country. And I’m aware that that’s hypocritical coming from me, as I see it in Los Angeles, as this happens. But I would say, given that reform started this parliament with five MPs and 20% of them is now suspended, and that is the number, okay? One out of five, 20% percent of their MPs are being suspended amidst bullying allegations. Nigel Farage, the leader of the party, has basically been on a long campaign for Donald Trump out here in America and has spent more time here than me. And I’ve done 33 tour dates across North America, I would say that’s evidence enough. We cannot sacrifice Wales to these incompetent, witch-burning, nonsense peddlers.

Coco Khan So let’s take a break and when we come back the questions are should we emigrate and is it worth going to university?

[AD]

Nish Kumar Welcome back. We are answering questions from the mailbag Coco. This question might be highly relevant if reform ever wins power in the UK. An American listener, Marie, wants to know what we think about emigrating. So this is a question. As our respective countries face social, political and economic upheaval, what do you think about the choice to remain in our home countries if we have the opportunity to emigrate elsewhere? I struggle with my feelings of responsibility versus a very real feeling that patriotism is outdated and irrational, would love to know your thoughts.

Coco Khan Wow. It’s a great question and not one I’ve really thought about, if I’m completely honest, I’m sort of very much tied to this land, I remember actually being on a trip in Greece when the Brexit referendum result came in and just losing the plot, I could not have been in a more beautiful environment, but it felt like I was in hell at the moment because you’re just sort of drawn back. Emotionally to this land, you know, so I just don’t know if I’d have the stomach to actually properly leave it. Bear in mind that like, if you look at my passport, like my place of birth, barking is five miles away from where I live now. I’m not known for my travels. I can’t go very, very far. But you know it’s interesting about that, that sense of like, well, I don’t need to put up with this, I can leave. Obviously there is a privilege attached to that. You’re doing that from the global north of course you know people in the global south don’t have those opportunities quite as much i don’t regret anyone for having those feelings certainly not i wouldn’t like to sit here and sort of finger wag and say oh you’re not being responsible you should stay there um i don’ know i really don’t know i don’t know it wouldn’t be one for me what about you

Nish Kumar I mean, I don’t know, I mean my parents, they were not born here, they came here, but it feels like they came because they thought, oh, I think there’s some interesting opportunities for us. They actually crucially didn’t come here because they, they thought oh my God, we’re in real trouble. This country is going to the dogs. I mean I will say that that is how my dad feels about the current Indian government in opinions that I’ve expressed and been roundly yelled at by my cousins who are Hindu ethno-nationalism than some of the rest of us. But what I would say is, I completely appreciate that people have had enough and might want to go. I don’t know. Are we ready to give up on our countries as projects, in a sense? Are we really willing to leave our countries to become colonized by the far right? That’s a question. I’d have an answer to that. I’ve responded to Marie’s question with a question And, you know, the answer to that might be yes, because there’s only there’s a certain emotional capacity that we all have, and there’s certain physical capacity. And if you’re a member of certain groups, there are genuine, legitimate threats to your day to day safety by remaining in countries governed by people like Trump. But it’s just a question of whether you feel that is outweighed by letting the country be taken over by its worst elements. I don’t know what the answer is to that.

Coco Khan No, me neither. On the subject of questions we don’t have any answers to, I’m not sure we’re qualified to answer the next question from the mailbag. Just a caveat that we’re not career advisors. This question is from Anna who has emailed about whether it’s worth going to university. She says, I live in subjectively relative poverty. I absolutely love school and I want to attend university, but I fear the outrageous fees. I don’t want to raise my children the same class conditions that I grew up in. And I feel I need a degree to be socially mobile. Do you think it’s worth it? And do you see a scenario where tuition fees are reduced?

Nish Kumar Well, first of all, thanks, Joanna, for sending in the question. I mean, we are definitely not qualified. I’m slowly realizing with this Mailbag special that we’ve bitten off more than we can chew. I genuinely thought it would be more questions like, what’s your favorite biscuit or something, but like, well, I always forget how engaged and informed our listenership are, more so than the hosts in some way.

Coco Khan Yeah, exactly. Imagine if it was all questions.

Nish Kumar I totally understand the skyrocketing cost of university and the debt that you get saddled with when you come out. It’s not comparable. My student debt, I think it was about £9,000 in the end, which is just not comparable to the amounts of money we’re talking about now. That cost differential facilitates me saying what I’m about to say, which I still believe in the power of university as being a transformative thing. Like university was completely transformative. Not because of what I studied at university, just because it created a space in my life in which I was able to go and explore doing comedy for a living. There’s no infrastructure, my family are not in show business, it’s completely alien to our world. I don’t know that without having that space created for me by being at university. It’s not just always about the degree that you get, though that is also very important, but I still believe in that power. If you want to go to university, I’m not saying that everyone has to go to university but it sounds like something you want do Anna and I still believe that it has truly transformative powers.

Coco Khan Mmm.

Nish Kumar Is that too idealized a view of it?

Coco Khan I agree with you, though. I mean, again, I feel sad at the question because I understand now that because the cost is so high, you have to ask this question. Whereas I didn’t really necessarily need to, you know, I weighed up loads of different things in my mind and yeah, part of me thought, oh, you know, whatever I spend, I’ll get it back. I was quite lucky. I got like scholarships and things like that anyway, but like I also just knew I wanted to move out of my house and I also knew I wanted to have these different experiences and try different things. And so all of it seemed kind of justified in the end, but the cost was obviously a lot lower. So I am mindful that my experience of university simply cannot count. But same as you, I thought it was really worthwhile, not because I learned loads about Chaucer. Actually, I didn’t really learn that much about Chauser. I still don’t really fully get it. But I had the experience of, I don’t know if you’ve ever come across this idea of like cultural capital. Social anthropologist in the 1970s talked about it and he talked about he was really interested in social mobility and he talks about the idea that through culture through a kind of worldliness you could increase your social mobility because essentially you could learn how to talk and walk and act like people from a different background to yourself. I feel like there was something in and certainly for me it’s just like well you know sometimes you like occasionally meet a really posh person and they come across as really well read because at the dinner table, they can talk to you about everything from like cinema to the Odyssey to whatever. And then actually, as you talk to them for longer, you’re like, you are actually not very smart. You’re just not reciting Wikipedia entries to me. It’s that sort of thing basically. And I think that was a worthwhile skill that actually helped me move into a field like journalism, which is enormously elitist. It has got some of the highest amounts of There is still, for me, there was still a value in terms of getting into a profession I otherwise wouldn’t have probably been able to learning about a bunch of stuff, getting out of my house, just enjoying it, having the opportunity to build my confidence with words, I did English at uni. I do just want to counter that with some, some stats. So a question you might have is do graduates earn significantly more than non-graduates on average? Yes, 30% more than none graduates by the age of 31, but it all depends on the courses that you’re doing. I don’t really know. What Anna is thinking of studying. But if it was law, for example, she would earn, you know, quarter of a mil more across her career than someone who was not a graduate. But, you know, if you’re in the creative arts, maybe not. You know, I guess the questions of what course you’re going to do matter as well. But I think I think it’s fair to say we all believe that everyone should have the right to pursue their passions, regardless of what class they’re from.

Nish Kumar Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. When people say we need fewer people at university, I go, I can sort of see that in the abstract, but I know who you’re talking about. You’re not talking about the dumbass kids of multimillionaires.

Coco Khan And there are many, if we have Elon Musk to use as an example.

Nish Kumar Okay, so the next question is a big challenge. It’s from an anonymous email who asks a huge question about how to reform democracy. So this anonymous email has written, I’ve been thinking of ways in which democracies can give more power to people. I think the lack of power of the voters is a reason for dissatisfaction today. Why can’t the government ask HMRC, which is the Inland Revenue Collect All Our Taxes, to develop a choice option for a portion of the tax it gathers? You could choose where you can funnel it based on your choice. The options can either be government priorities or develop through the voting process. And they would offer maybe 10 to 15 priorities and you can choose your few ones to which you would funnel X percent of the tax you already pay. That way you’d have funding based on importance for the tax paying population and even the lowest priority would have some funds and they can reset each year. Is this too much to imagine and ask for? Any other ideas to give an actual stake in governing to the people?

Coco Khan Wow.

Nish Kumar I mean, this is a whole episode in of itself.

Coco Khan I would definitely be interested in hearing more about this idea. I did, oh, this, I don’t know if this makes me a really cynical person, but my first thought was when you’re reading it out, like, Oh, it’ll just be loads of, um, you know, right-wing people putting loads of money into deportation, but no money into like, I dunno, domestic violence shelters or something. That was, that was maybe me being a bit too negative there.

Nish Kumar I think you’d get into some quite sort of complicated conversations about where our tax money goes. Listen, I think what would be better is more transparency about how government money is spent and also the efficiency of collecting money in tax and spending it. We spend less money on our nationalized health system per capita than the United States does on its privatized healthcare system. Those are the kind of bits of information that we should be explaining to people. And again, it’s like making the case for government. And then maybe you wouldn’t necessarily need to have ideas like we all get to pick where our tax money goes. Because if we made a more transparent case for how efficient public spending is versus letting private companies run everything. It would actually help people feel more engaged there. I don’t know that you can start getting people to like pick and choose which bits of the state money goes on.

Coco Khan Yeah.

Nish Kumar You can’t trust the British population to not immediately go to a prank, and I worry that we’d end up with a lot of public money financing a giant gold statue in Trafalgar Square of that guy who stuck a flare up his arse.

Coco Khan And yeah, in my mind, I would give £1 to that, that’s not like a good project.

Nish Kumar This is what I mean. This is exactly what I’m talking about. We all would.

Coco Khan Apparently though, on a serious point, apparently there is research to show that we are happier paying taxes for specific things. So, you know, our national insurance, we probably feel happier about because we know where it’s going and unspecified tax, you know, I’m sure it can all get wrapped up in our hostilities and our preconceptions about, you know, what the government in charge is doing. So yeah, I mean, it’s definitely a great idea. I’d be very open to it for sure.

Nish Kumar I would love before we go to full, you get to pick all of it, just more transparency, just more information on how the government spends money and what that looks like in relative terms to other countries around the world.

Coco Khan Okay, I’ve got one. So Kat has a Bob Dylan question for you, Nish.

Nish Kumar At last, something I’m qualified to answer.

Coco Khan Finally, have you been keeping up with Bob Dylan’s late night Instagram posts lately? What’s your favorite? Is he, is he on one?

Nish Kumar Bob Dylan has embraced social media.

Coco Khan Right.

Nish Kumar In 2025. Bob Dylan and the Labour Party have decided 2025 is the year to embrace social media. Yeah, it’s not like he’s posting like selfies and like pictures of his breakfast and stuff. He’s been posting video clips of like old musicians. It’s the most Bob Dylan thing possible. Okay. And it’s all fantastic. I don’t know where he’s pulling these clips from. They’re all like old TV performances from like Johnny Cash and stuff I’m fascinated to know who is ripping these things off YouTube for Dylan. Is doing that himself? And who is actually doing the posting? Is Bob Dylan sending information to some like social media expert or is Dylan on his phone ripping stuff from YouTube and putting it directly on Instagram? There was a great Johnny Cash performance on there. The other day I think on Twitter, he wished Tracy Chapman a happy birthday.

Coco Khan Aww, that’s nice.

Nish Kumar I’ll be honest with you, Bob Dylan being on Instagram is the only thing I think that’s still keeping me on Instagram.

Coco Khan I feel like also, if you do have another turn in your career, I think I know where you’re going. I think some, I think someone called Bob Dylan is going to get an application for a social media expert.

Nish Kumar I think that would be the old leading the older, me being Bob Dylan’s social media. I actually think based on his output, he’s got a much better handle of how to use it than me. How old is he? I think he’s nearly 84 years old. I think his 84th birthday is imminent and an 84 year old man seems to have a better grasp of social media than me, I mean, he is only 84 in May. So at the moment he’s uh you know he’s a whip he’s an absolute whiffer snapper at 83 Yes, I do know Bob Dylan’s birthday off the top of my head. OK, let’s not get into it. I know it. 24Th of May, 1941. Yes, let us not get in to it. We’ll be back soon with more of your questions, including Is this the death of diversity? Welcome back. So do we think diversity and inclusion are dead? Another anonymous emailer wants to know if British companies will drop their diversity and Inclusion programs and whether any gains minorities of one will be lost and how to fight back. They said this global pharmaceutical giant GSK, which is a British company has paused its DEI programs and it’s mentoring women programs. They state it’s to enable them to continue to trade with the USA. Although securing those contracts results in their CEO receiving a 10 million pound annual pay rise. We should factor that in as well. So the anonymous email is question is this, how likely is it that other British companies will follow suit? One of reforms policies in their 2024 manifesto was to stop all DEI programs. With the rise of reform is a worry for minorities who are only asking for a level playing field. What can be done to prevent the small amount of ground gained in this area being lost?

Coco Khan Gosh, it is so sad, isn’t it? All this, the rollback of DEI, and I think we’d be the first to say, perhaps there were some problems with identity politics and I’m sure in the vast array of DEIs initiatives across all the various businesses in the UK, I’m not saying they all got it right, I am sure they didn’t, but as an idea, as a conceit, I thought it was generally quite hopeful and quite progressive. It’s been really sad to see this. Collapse so quickly, sacrifice so quickly. Also, I just want to mention that the CEO of GSK is a woman. So that goes to show, you know, what we’ve been talking about representation politics, just cause you’re from a, an identity, which otherwise wouldn’t be in that role. Doesn’t mean you’re doing anything for your lot. Um, also the other thing I want to mentioned is just that I briefly had a little stint as a sort of techie business journalist in my glittering long and weird career. And, you know, all the evidence from the business reviews show that diversity works. It makes businesses stronger. It makes them make more money. They are attuned with more customers. They can work in more areas. This idea of it being some anti-business initiative, I find kind of laughable. In terms of what can be done though, gosh, I don’t know. You’re just as good as mine, really.

Nish Kumar I mean, I think there is definitely a kind of policy pushback against DEI initiatives happening in the States. And obviously Reform’s entire political philosophy is just to open a Trump campaign website and hit copy and paste. So that’s obviously where this kind of fear and this push is coming from. It’s probably worth noting that what it really definitely shows you is these companies were never really committed to diversity or inclusion in the first place. They just thought it would be good for business. And you know what, it is good for business because actually it turns out like engaging a broader section of the population is good for you. And the whole idea of DEI is actually to make sure that you’re pulling from the widest possible group to make sure that you get the best people. Because part of the problem with job applications is that it tends to be heavily siloed by class, race and gender. And actually… The whole way that we talk about this needs to be reframed, because the writers allowed it essentially to be framed as a dilution of quality, that you’re actually sacrificing the standards of your workplace in order to make sure that it’s more representative. Actually, we need to be talking about it in the reverse terms. You can’t guarantee that you’ll getting the widest pool of people unless you actually try and overcome systemic roadblocks to you seeing the resumes of the widests group of people from society possible. Diversity initiatives. Are actually about increasing the amount of talent you have in the workplace. You know, if the British government has taught us nothing from the last 15 years, let it be this. Let it finally put to an end once and for all the idea that people who have gone to private school are intellectually superior to people who’ve gone to state school. Surely the last couple of conservative governments have been absolute evidence that where you went to school and university is not the absolute indicator. Your intellectual prowess and that actually maybe it’s better if there are systems in place to cast a wider net that allows you to actually have access to the most talented smart people in your country. We framed the conversation completely wrong and we’ve, I mean, I say that it’s not, it’s a deliberate push to frame the conversation in as bad faith terms as possible, but I think there is a real danger that we roll back some of those provisions and I think There’s a danger for everybody and these private companies who think that they’re doing something that’s good for their business. It’s actually turning the clock back to a time where you were only drawing from a specific economic and social class and if you’re only pooling from rich, straight white men, there is a chance you are missing out on the most talented people.

Coco Khan Okay Nish, so let’s end with a quick fire round. Gerald in Canada says, based on your declared fondness for 2006 and such, I have a question of that era for either or both of you. I think this is for you Nish. Boxers or briefs?

Nish Kumar Boxers I need some air down there. Do you have a boxers or briefs preference Coco?

Coco Khan I mean, I don’t feel it’s my place. I feel I support all, all wearers of these items to make their own choices. They’re all fine with me.

Nish Kumar Meredith wants to know what’s your favorite Tv show right now?

Coco Khan Right now I’m watching White Lotus. I’m actually quite disappointed, which doesn’t really answer the question, but I just want it to be said that I’m not enjoying this season as much. I don’t think Walton Goggins has been made enough of. Anyway, okay, you.

Nish Kumar Because of a weird rights delay we got only just got the third series of Hacks in the UK and it was fantastic and I loved it and I’m excited about the new series.

Coco Khan So Kay has three questions. What’s your favorite mythical creature?

Nish Kumar Oooooooooooooooooo MINOTAUR

Coco Khan I’ve got Medusa, you know.

Nish Kumar Red, that’s very cool.

Coco Khan Because you know, she’s so fierce, she turns you into stone, which is how I would like to be. Favorite small indie band?

Nish Kumar Well, I should issue a plug for my friend’s band, Nathie SG’s Broken Ankle Song is the music that I’ve been walking onto in all of my tour shows around the world and that song is called Broken Ankel Song and it’s available on all streaming services. Though remember, where possible, buy either merch or hard copies of the songs because Spotify doesn’t pay its artists properly.

Coco Khan Have you ever eaten a pot noodle in the bar?

Nish Kumar What’s your favorite indie band before we get into whether I’ve eaten a pot noodle in the bar?

Coco Khan I mean, I haven’t listened to indie music as an area.

Nish Kumar Well, is there a smaller artist that you want to shout out?

Coco Khan Do who do I want to shout out? Who do I really like? It’s put me on the spot Nish. I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed. I’ll come back to you. Can I come back?

Nish Kumar Coco would like to shout out Dolly Parton, upcoming musician, Dolly parton. Have I ever eaten a pot noodle in the bath? No, I’ve not eaten a part noodle, but I actually haven’t eaten a pot noodle.

Coco Khan I thought you were going to say, I haven’t had a bath. I thought that’s what you were gonna say. I don’t have a bath

Nish Kumar Listen, what I will say is I’ve never eaten a pot noodle in the bath, but based on my physical appearance, I completely understand why that question has been asked. I don’t believe that question was named at Coco Khan, I believe that that question has been named squarely at me, and I have not, but I understand why you would assume I had.

Coco Khan Isn’t it funny how eating and drinking in the bath is luxurious, but eating and drinking in this shower?

Nish Kumar Crisis, immediate crisis. Yeah, immediate. Well, I think that there are some logical reasons that like eating in the bath, you’re capable of not getting your food soaked. Drinking in the shower. Those noodles are going to be damp. You don’t want your noodles to taste of like San X body wash.

Coco Khan Thank you very much for all your great questions. We’re having a week off, but Pod Save the UK is back on Thursday, the 1st of May, which is, of course, polling day in the local elections and the Runcorn Buy elections, so make sure you use your vote. Don’t forget also to follow at Pod Save the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. And we’re on blue sky now too, so follow us at podsavetheuk.crooked.com. And if you want more of us, make sure you’ve subscribed to our YouTube channel.

Nish Kumar Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.

Coco Khan Thanks to producer May Robson and research and editor Isabella Anderson.

Nish Kumar Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos

Coco Khan The executive producers are Louise Cotton, Madeleine Herringer and Katie Long, with additional support from Ari Schwartz. Can I go back to my indie band question? I’ve been listening to a lot of self-esteem. Can I have that?

Nish Kumar Mid-credit shout out for self-esteem. You’re welcome, Rebecca.

Coco Khan And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts.