Recovering from Moral Injury | Crooked Media
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December 02, 2022
Recovering from Moral Injury

In This Episode

Have your moral codes been compromised? Learn how to face your decisions and heal from your life choices on the next Imani State of Mind.




Dr. Imani Walker: Hey everybody. Welcome to you Imani State of Mind. I’m Dr. Imani. 


MegScoop Thomas: And I am MegScoop. How are you today? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, my God, I’m good. I’m actually really good. Um. I have, no one can see this who’s listening, but I have this little beanie on because it’s I’m not going to say it’s brick in L.A. Because it’s not brick, but it is cold. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And um they said they said this week is supposed to be like, oh, like a cold weather morning. 


MegScoop Thomas: What does, what does that mean? 


Dr. Imani Walker: I don’t know girl, I did not grow up here. I’m like, you mean it’s going to be like 50? [laughing] I’m like–


MegScoop Thomas: Right. That means like [?] 45, 50? 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m like, if you don’t slow down. So um. So, yeah, they were just like, it’s going to be cold this week. The highs are going to be in the sixties. I’m like, okay. That’s fine.


MegScoop Thomas: That’s basically what it is in Atlanta right now. That’s warm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Yeah. Like it’s I mean, it is so as as I’m like, it’s not even that cold. I’m here with like all the clothes on. Um. I’m not even gonna front. Um.


MegScoop Thomas: I know I’m looking at you, you said not cold, and here you are with a hoodie, a beanie– 


Dr. Imani Walker: I got a hoodie. 


MegScoop Thomas: You got earmuffs, a scarf. 


Dr. Imani Walker: [laughing] I know, right? 


MegScoop Thomas: Just kidding. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Basically, I know. But I’m, I’m like I’m like I’m not even cold. It is kind of cool here. Um. But yo, what’s up with you? How are you? 


MegScoop Thomas: Doing pretty good, you know, last week was Thanksgiving. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes. 


MegScoop Thomas: Um. So this week of transitioning over to Christmas. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Trying to get some lights outside. Are you putting lights and stuff? Do you do that? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Girl let me tell you– 


MegScoop Thomas: On your house, for Christmas? 


Dr. Imani Walker: –let me tell you about these people in my. Okay so I called, I am doing lights. I called the people who put up the lights at my neighbor’s house right across the street and I because I got their card. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: These people, Meg. When I tell. Okay. This is what I told them. I was like, I just want to do the roof line. That’s it. I just want to do the roof line. I don’t. They were like, how about a wreath? I was like, I don’t want a wreath. I just want the roof line. I want something very simple. You know what these people came back and says to me with a straight ass face? 


MegScoop Thomas: How much? 


Dr. Imani Walker: $2,400. 


MegScoop Thomas: Wait. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I was like–


MegScoop Thomas: [gasp] Are you kidding me? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Ah he said, 24. I was like 2 2 24 zero? Like 240? I was like, what are you talking about? I was like, oh okay. 


MegScoop Thomas: Wow. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I was like I’m a call you back. So I, I found someone for like a third of the price because I was like, I was like, I’m just asking you to hang up some lights. I’m not asking you to, like, build me a whole unit to my house. Like, what are you doing? 


MegScoop Thomas: Oooh, girl. That’s a–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Now, what’s crazy is that I’m over here in the process of doing that myself, because we have these, lights last year from this company, and it was a little pricey, but it was like our, you know, we had just bought the house. So I was like, okay, cool. And this year they were like, it’s going to be like $100 more, I guess, inflation or whatever. But I was just like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s fine. I can accept that. But not no $2400. 


MegScoop Thomas: It’s just ugh. Girl, it’s more expensive over here. But, but actually it’s cheaper compared to L.A. prices. Right.


Dr. Imani Walker: I mean, it’s cheaper, but also, like I told them, they were like, where do you live at? And I told them, like, where in L.A. that I live. And I know they cause I was like, here we go. And they was they was giving me– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I was like, I didn’t ask you to build a nativity scene and put a a Santa Claus with a sleigh on on my roof. I’m like, just put lights along the roofline. 


MegScoop Thomas: Just the lights. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Girl. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So I am getting lights. Um. I’m getting lights. So um I am. I’m pretty excited about Christmas. Um. Not for any particular reason. I just love Christmas time. Uh. 


MegScoop Thomas: Me too. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Christmas Day is always I’m like, whatever. What I really need to do, real talk, cause I need to get rid of these Thanksgiving leftovers that are that are in my um–


MegScoop Thomas: Girl. I still have them. I’ve tried to do everything with them. Okay? I’ve made omelets with the meat. I’ve made uh fried turkey. Fried rice. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Which is fire. But, like, I’m just– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: –Kind of sick of it. I don’t. I’m sick of it. I’m just. I don’t want it anymore. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I ate it. 


MegScoop Thomas: Ugh. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And that’s all I did with it. I’m about to throw it out today because it’s been almost a week. I’m like, I’m done.


MegScoop Thomas: I feel so bad, I feel so wasteful when I do that. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, but I mean, but you know what like what are you going to do? You gonna make yourself eat it? 


MegScoop Thomas: You right. At this point, what else am I going to, what can I make? A soup? I don’t know. I’m tired. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Same. And you know what? Listen, today we’re going to have a really interesting show because I came across this topic um called Moral Injury. So today we’re going to be talking about an invisible epidemic that’s affecting millions of people and Moral Injury is a really interesting one. And we’re we’re going to talk more about it in our deep dive. So I wanted to take a deep dive into this topic because after the pandemic, a lot of people developed this moral injury and they’re dealing with it in silence. They’re not talking about it because a lot of people, including me, didn’t even know what it was. So because of that, I feel it’s–


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Really important to discuss moral injury and topics like these, just to create spaces for education, spaces for healing. So if you don’t know what moral injury is, you’re going to find out today. So along with that, we’re going to get into current events, which is one of my favorite topics that we discuss at the top of the show. Um, now, yo, let me tell you, first of all, before we even get to that, December 1st is World AIDS Day. That’s on Thursday. So that’s going to be the day before this podcast comes out, but it is going to be World AIDS Day. That’s a really big deal. Girl, do you remember when we were, like, younger and everything was like condoms everywhere. Like–


MegScoop Thomas: Right right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: People like– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like now like I legit have patients who have HIV and they’re and they’re like, Oh yeah, I just take my cocktail and it’s cool. Like, I mean, 25, 30 years ago, it was like, yo, I got that shit. Like, Oh, my God, like– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like it was. I mean, I remember when it was like a death sentence. And so the fact that–  


MegScoop Thomas: Right. It was yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. And it really like it ran through ran through the Black community, ran through the African continent. It’s still not great, but um we do have the medications to treat it. Um. And I’m glad that, you know, World AIDS Day is still being recognized because it still is a devastating disease. So um it’s just more manageable for some of us, for some of us who can afford the medication, some of us who are in the right countries uh that cover the medication, um obviously in third world countries that isn’t always the case. Um. But yo– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Let me tell you. So I got really excited because we were talking about current events. Yo. Did you hear about this story out here in uh California? About this man? 


MegScoop Thomas: Which one? 


Dr. Imani Walker: So this man was just he he had just been like he I guess he passed his test. He just became like a a um um a not corrections, but like I don’t think he was a police officer, but this dude had just like passed his test to be a um like in, like an officer of the law, something like that. So anyway, this man was 28. He comes to he comes to California, he comes to Riverside, which is which is um in Orange County next to L.A.. He was catfishing this girl, this 15 year old girl, and went to her house, waited for her family to all be in the house together that morning, shot up her grandparents and her mom and then– 


MegScoop Thomas: [?] crazy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Took her, kidnapped her. Right. They they drive for 200 miles and they do get like they catch him, but he got shot. He’s dead now. The girl is completely unharmed. But I was like, oh, my God. Terrifying. 


MegScoop Thomas: That’s crazy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s crazy. 


MegScoop Thomas: That’s crazy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, my God. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So anyway, that happened. There’s a lot of other stuff happening but that, literally, like came out as far as in the news yesterday. Um. And I just I was just thinking–


MegScoop Thomas: And you know– 


Dr. Imani Walker: –About it like, damn. 


MegScoop Thomas: You know what’s crazy is that like when I when I hear stories like this, I feel like it could have been me. Because back in the day when I was like 16 and like the internet was first like poppin where you could like talk like you could like chat with other people. Like that was a hot [?]. I don’t even think Facebook was out. I think it was just– 


Dr. Imani Walker: It was like AOL. 


MegScoop Thomas: Like Black Planet. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Exactly. AOL chats. Yahoo! Chats, Black Planet. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Mm hmm. 


MegScoop Thomas: Like it was that era. And I just remember being 16, talking to God knows who. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: On um and I’ve come to find out there was this man in DC that was like a grown man. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Mm hmm. 


MegScoop Thomas: Who was acting like he was a teenager and he was like 40 years old. I was 16 and I was like, oh my gosh, here I am. Like, yeah, I’ll come and fly and see you. No [indistinct] I don’t got no money to go fly to see nobody [laughter] and it’s it was an old pedophile–


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s crazy. 


MegScoop Thomas: And he’s like a pedophile. I don’t know like but I found out he was later. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I mean. Yeah he a pedophile.


MegScoop Thomas: I was like oh my gosh how many girls did he talk to and do that to. So it’s so easy like for stuff like that to happen in this day and age. It’s, ugh it like blows my mind and it makes me scared, actually, for my kids. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. No, it’s um something else that I read recently was um I guess it’s kind of connect– yeah, it is connected to the topic. There are men who for over a decade, like one man since 2007, people have been stealing their photos and catfishing all these women with it. So one of the men in this in the article was saying how he has like a form letter at this point, so that so that women contact him and he says like he he sends out like these form letters like 2 to 3 times a week sometimes. 


MegScoop Thomas: Wow. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And he’ll be like, Listen, I know that you think I am this. This is really me, though. This is my picture. Okay? The person you were talking to is not me. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: One of the men was like, Yo, I’m. I’m gay. Like, I’m in a relationship. Like, I’m not. I don’t like women, like, at all. Like, that’s not how I get down. And so this one man, he has this form letter and and some of the women were like, well, you have to well, I feel you, but you got to do right. You got to make this right. And he was like bitch I don’t not like I didn’t I’m sorry you got catfished. 


MegScoop Thomas: How do you make this right?


Dr. Imani Walker: Exactly.


MegScoop Thomas: I don’t know you. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like, I’m the victim, too, girl. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. I never thought about the flipside– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Of, like, these men that were like, yo, like, I like one man said that he got, like, phone calls, like, like he was at work and he was like, yeah, stay away from my wife or I’m a come over there and, like, slit your throat or something. And he was like, excuse me? Like, Ooh, I’m about to leave. So–


MegScoop Thomas: Oh my god. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Somebody did that with my pictures back in the day. I had a whole like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Are you serious? 


MegScoop Thomas: Yes, girl, I had a whole, like, web page with, this is when I was in high school so like [indistinct]- 


Dr. Imani Walker: What was your fake name? 


MegScoop Thomas: I don’t even remember.


Dr. Imani Walker: Do you do you remember the name they gave you? 


MegScoop Thomas: Like sexymama125 or something like [laughter] it was so– one of those. And I remember like I don’t even know how I found the page. Oh, I think it was that was a situation. Somebody was like, is this you? Because they had been conversing with uh that page. And then they saw me somewhere else and was like, is this you? 


Dr. Imani Walker: [indistinct]. 


MegScoop Thomas: And I looked I was like, oh, my gosh, somebody stole all, so I wrote them I was like, how dare you steal my pictures? I’m going to tell everybody you stole my pictures. I’m like, who would I tell? Like the Internet police. Like, I don’t know. But in my–


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: –Head I was like I’m gonna tell the world and then the page was like shut down. So– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: –They probably ended up using my pictures again, but I never found out.


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Well, I mean, we’ll find out if, like, somebody, you know, leaves a comment for the show, like, is this sexymama125? Oh, my God, I love your podcast. 


MegScoop Thomas: I’ll be like oh lord no. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s great. 


MegScoop Thomas: Terrible, terrible. Why won’t you call me back? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. Like, cause I don’t know who you are. 


MegScoop Thomas: [indistinct] homeboy. It wasn’t me. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: It wasn’t me Playboy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. What have what have you been, what have you been like coming across as far as, like, you know, recent news? 


MegScoop Thomas: Well, I’ve just been following so um this story about Balenciaga, the brand. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Mmm. 


MegScoop Thomas: They have done some– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Girl. 


MegScoop Thomas: –Questionable stuff over the year. They’ve always just been a little weird to me. So basically they had this campaign, which was with Adidas, by the way, people are Adidas has–


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh! 


MegScoop Thomas: –conveniently like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Ohh. 


MegScoop Thomas: –back their neck, they’re like oohhh.


Dr. Imani Walker: See. 


MegScoop Thomas: They– 


Dr. Imani Walker: See. 


MegScoop Thomas: If you notice the kids have on Adidas. But in this uh in this campaign, you see a couple of little girls with like uh a bear, but the bear looks like an S, what is it? SBDM? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Bondage. They’re bondage bears. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. A bondage bear. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: And then like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Leather and little–


MegScoop Thomas: –one of the little girls, she, there’s like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: –harnesses. 


MegScoop Thomas: –alcohol around her. Yeah.


Dr. Imani Walker: Damn. 


MegScoop Thomas: And then she’s got like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: For real?


MegScoop Thomas: Wi– Yeah. She got like wine cups around look like people have been drinking and she’s like holding a little bondage bear. And it was so weird like, who– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Eew. 


MegScoop Thomas: –okayed this. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: Why why are y’all like, what is going on in the world where you think you can put a child with this? 


Dr. Imani Walker: You know what else? 


MegScoop Thomas: This like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: You know what else was in there? And I’m sorry if you–


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Were going to say this. So–


MegScoop Thomas: No no go ahead. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It was like so there I saw the picture of the two girls. And then if you if you uh the very last image that I saw was an image of like a um it was it was an image of text that was written in like legal jargon. It was like legalese. And this– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Particular passage essentially was it was I believe that it it was touching upon like um like uh like sexual predation in kids. And so–


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah it was like a, I think it was I thought it was like a lawsuit or something like that. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: That had like a criminal, basically it was like a legal document that was talking about child pornography. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: And like they kind of they poorly hid it so you could see what it said. And then it was just basically just a picture of a purse. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: But there was a bunch of documents and that was one of the documents. And so the fact that they have it, it’s really weird like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s gross. 


MegScoop Thomas: –To me that means you definitely are predators. You guys are sick. People at the– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: –Top of Balenciaga are doing some kind of child sex trafficking. And because to me, what are why else would you do that? Why? Like, who would come up, hey, y’all put that child porn paper right here, move it a little bit. Like what?


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m saying, I’m like, what the fuck is wrong with you? And then. And then what what killed me was Balenciaga is suing the the art director of that shoot. Not their creative director who oversaw all of that. Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: They’re they’re they’re suing the art director for the shoot. I’m like, that’s ridiculous. That’s ridiculous. That is that’s so like– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You guys are passing bucks when really, like, the issue is you. The issue is you. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. Because you obviously had to approve this. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: Somebody had to approve this at work. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Someone approved it. 


MegScoop Thomas: You know if you want to sue her because maybe she’s contracted, but either way, somebody from Balenciaga okayed it. And so–


Dr. Imani Walker: Hell yeah, I was like ugh. Like you guys are gross, I’m a just go get the knockoff ones from Steve Madden and big up Steve Madden. I’m a just go get those.


MegScoop Thomas: See that’s see that’s a better idea. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I guess. 


MegScoop Thomas: I like that as well. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But this was like my birthday present. 


MegScoop Thomas: I thought you was about to say I about to get the knockoff ones from China. And I was like okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker:  No girl. 


MegScoop Thomas: I can dig it.


Dr. Imani Walker: No, not the knockoff shoes. Knockoff shoes be look, you be walking down and down the street. They just come apart. I’m not even gonna I’m not even gonna I’m not even gonna deal with that. I’m not even gonna fuck with that. Um. You know what else has been going on, though, girl? You in Georgia? This run off. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mm hmm. It sure is.


Dr. Imani Walker: So did they? I saw in the news that um Saturday voting is being allowed. Is that this coming Saturday? Is this Saturday coming up? 


MegScoop Thomas: No, no, no, no. So it’s not Saturday voting. So the runoff election is actually this upcoming Tuesday, December 6th. But–


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


MegScoop Thomas: –The early voting ends today, the second of– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh. 


MegScoop Thomas: –December. Friday. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. I’ve already–


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


MegScoop Thomas: I’ve already uh early voted. Thank god. I early voted, I had to wait in the line a little bit. It’s okay. It was worth it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It is runoff time in Georgia. Right. And like you said, early voting started Monday, November 28th. It ends today, which is December 2nd, and that’s for the Tuesday runoff election between Warnock and um Herschel Walker. Really quick side note, did you hear that Herschel Walker? Did you hear, did you see Herschel Walker um compared himself to a werewolf? Did you see that’s that? 


MegScoop Thomas: I don’t listen to nothing he says no more. [laughter] Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I was like what– [laughing]


MegScoop Thomas: I stopped when he put out that little toy badge, when he put out that fake badge I was like nothing. I’m not paying attention to nothing you’re doing after this. 


Dr. Imani Walker: The other thing that um that Herschel Walker uh said over the Thanksgiving break is that he blamed his wife’s genes for his son being ugly at birth. I was like, you know what? It was in Newsweek. I tweeted it. I was like, I can’t believe this. I’m like, so listen, anyway, this run off for senator in Georgia is between Warnock and Herschel Walker, who’s not a werewolf. Um. The main thing is that if you’re a Georgia voter, please head over to to make your plan. And if you want to help out, no matter where you live, you can donate and find remote and in-person volunteer opportunities to make sure that Warnock has the resources it needs and the Warnock campaign has the resources it needs. So 51 senators means the difference between a true majority or being faced with another two years of roadblocks like Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin, who are just problem children. So please make sure that every Georgia voter can make their voice heard again at And if you’re loving the show, let us know by rating the show on your favorite podcast app. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yes, we have so much to talk about. Let’s start the show.


Dr. Imani Walker: Yay! [music break] Okay. So you guys. We want to know what’s on your mind, and we want to know, like, what you may be struggling with. We love giving our professional and not so professional advice. 


MegScoop Thomas: That’s right. It’s time for ask Dr. Amani anything. Our first letter today comes from Jeanette, and here’s what she had to say. Dear Dr. Imani and Meg, that whole show you did on Keeping Up With the Joneses was just for me. I have a spending problem, like, real bad. After listening to the show, I realized I mask my insecurities behind material things, and I want to start to work on myself. But I don’t know where to start. I feel like a new outfit makes all my problems go away at the moment. I live for people to compliment me on my outfits or new purchases. I thrive off the attention of the things I get. Is there a diagnosis for that? I am ready to get some help. I have been hiding my bad spending habits from all my loved ones. I have over $80,000 worth of credit card debt. I don’t know how to tell my friends and family about my problem. As I write this letter, I feel overwhelmed and just want to go shopping to run for my problems. Ladies, please help me. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, my God. Jeanette. Okay, listen before. Okay. Forget that. I said, Oh, my God. Jeanette Okay. Because I don’t want you to feel that I’m coming from a place of judgment. I’m not. Because, listen, everybody in this country is got debt. Everybody got debt. 


MegScoop Thomas: [laugh] Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Let me, let me tell you. Me and Meg were talking about this, I think, when you were um when you came out here to L.A.. So I recently paid off all of my debts. I have no debt. 


MegScoop Thomas: Woo woo! 


Dr. Imani Walker: No debt. Back in April, I paid off everything, including my ex-husband. I paid off everything. Okay. [laughter] So. So I went to go buy a car, and I was like, I’m either going to pay for it outright or, you know what? I was like, let me. Because. Because let me tell you, once I paid everything off, my credit score dropped like crazy. And I was like, what is this? Why is it six something? This is ridiculous. So I ended up I was going to pay for the car outright because I had saved up, but I ended up financing it because I needed to, a quote unquote “establish credit history.” So that’s what I’m doing. 


MegScoop Thomas: What? 


Dr. Imani Walker: And yeah, like, it’s because the thing about credit is that if, if you don’t have it, then your score, like if you don’t have debt, your score is not going to be that great. Right? Now if you have a long history of having debt and then paying it off like, you know, when you’re supposed to pay it off, your score will go up. But yeah, they were like, Listen, if you want a better credit score, you’re going to have to have some debt. And I was like, This is ridiculous. So–. 


MegScoop Thomas: What? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. And I also say that as somebody who, like, I haven’t had $80,000 worth of debt, I really don’t like having debt. But I did have debt and it was sometimes it would keep me up at night. Like, I really don’t like I don’t like I don’t like feeling like somebody has anything over me. Like it’s just something that is very inherent to me and it bothers me. That being said, Jeanette, I don’t want you to sit here and feel like, oh, my God, you know, like we’re judging you or I’m judging you. I’m not. But you you need to you need to stop spending money. Is there a diagnosis for what you have? Yeah. You broke. You broke. Like, stop, stop, stop spending money on things that you don’t need. Because I guarantee you, let me tell you, there’s shit in my closet that I need to sell or get rid of because I don’t like it was from it’s like it was from before the pandemic. It was a whole other life ago. I guarantee you all the stuff that you have, you probably aren’t wearing all of it and legit, Jeanette. Do you have anything in your closet that still has tags on it? Like that’s–


MegScoop Thomas: Probably she does. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You know, like, that’s probably right. I know that shopping makes you feel good, and I know that you like getting the compliments and stuff like that. But the, honestly, the, the only other people who are complimenting you, legit, not only but like the majority of those people are people who are also in debt. And I know, like I was just talking about, like I bought a bag cause my birthday’s coming up. I bought these boots. These were items, though, that like this bag I wanted for three years, and I found the cheapest price for it. I’m not saying you can’t buy nice things for yourself, but you’re doing yourself a disservice by putting all this undue pressure on yourself. Like the the attention and the compliments that you get are so fleeting. And I. I don’t know you, Jeanette, but I feel like $80,000 would keep me up at night. Like, shit, like how like I need to pay this shit off. 


MegScoop Thomas: Cause you owe. 


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s a lot. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. You owe somebody that. That’s not just like, oh, I have debt. Like you legit. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: That’s somebody else’s money that is like hanging over your head. 


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s somebody’s salary you owe back, you know what I’m saying? Like, that’s– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s kind of how I’m framing it. Like, that’s how I’m seeing it. So you really need to, like, there’s, there’s multiple ways you can do this. There’s lots like, there’s lots of like um budgeting apps out there. Um. I used to use Mint, but Mint would make me feel bad because Mint would be like, Ooh, you didn’t save enough this month. I’m like bitch well, maybe I’m paying like, Mint really made me mad. Okay, there is there is there is a budgeting app that um you can you can use online. I really like it. It’s called um you need, it’s called YNAB. It’s called You Need a Budget. And I love it because it basically uses the envelope method. Like I loved the envelope method when I was like first starting to learn how to budget. Like I would take my, I would get like actual money. I’d put it in an envelope, I’d put like groceries on it, and then I’d go to the grocery store with that money or a certain amount of money out of that envelope. And I would, you know, I’d make sure I had all my coupons. And when I got back home, I would deduct how much I spent from the total. And so I never was confused as to, you know, what I was spending and what I wasn’t spending. Now, that was back before apps. Okay, this is back when I had a flip phone. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I had to go through last year after like my divorce was final, I was like, I need to redo all my budget. I had to go through and find out like what apps am I using, what’s charging me like because look, $14.99 a month or $4.99 a month, that shit adds up. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. So– 


MegScoop Thomas: It does. Yeah.


Dr. Imani Walker: You need to sit down and and legit go through like you need to print out your your bank statement and like you need to X like cross out all the things you do not use and honestly, like you need to really budget like, and you need to start paying this stuff off. You probably– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –might want to even I’m not going to say don’t close your credit, don’t close your accounts, but you need to take your cards off your phone, you need to take your cards out of your like, you know, your wallet if you have an iPhone or whatever the similar thing is, if you have like a Google phone or whatever. Like, even, like sometimes people recommend, like taking your credit card and freezing it in a block of ice, but you need to, like, not spend money. But what you do need to do is you probably need some therapy. You probably need some therapy.


MegScoop Thomas: Ooo yeah. Because to me, this sounds like um like just an addict. It sounds like an addiction. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. Like any other except it’s not like substance abuse. Or maybe it is. But this substance is your credit card. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: And um if anything, you do need to talk to somebody about it. Jeanette, you need to tell somebody. Tell a trusted friend, at least. Tell like your best friend, like, hey, I need help with this. I’m in debt, so hold my credit cards for me so that I do not use them. And that, like, that way, if you like, if it’s an emergency, you can hit your homegirl up like, hey, I really need it. This is what it’s for. And then you can let her. If she’s a really good friend, she should be able to be like, okay, you need it. Or no you don’t, girl. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: I’m not going to let you have this. But either way, you do need to tell somebody because I think it’ll help you, um you know, not spend as much. You definitely want to keep the accounts open so you, you know, you can still continue to accumulate, um like, just your credit history, but you don’t need to spend the money that’s in there. And I’m with you on that Imani, budgeting apps there’s there’s there’s companies that will help you budget. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Or that can help you figure out how to pay back your $80,000 in debt in a way that works for you so you can still have money to live every month. Right. Because that’s the whole goal here is like, you know, we all want to get nice things, but when you do too much, that’s when you start to need help. And apps, you know, financial management companies. Um. Your friends that will hold you accountable with this with your credit cards. Like those are very important to you, and those are the things you need to to run towards. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. And maybe you don’t have I mean, I don’t know, like maybe you if you have a friend that can hold you accountable, then, like, you’re you’re golden. You may, maybe you don’t. Maybe your other friends are like you. I don’t know. I don’t know. But I think that, like you said, Meg, like this is an addiction. And I understand, you know, you’re getting like the dopamine rush, like, oh, my gosh, he likes my shoes or oh, my God, like she like my outfit. I get it. But, like, you need to shop your closet. It sounds like you have enough– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Stuff. Shop your closet. 


MegScoop Thomas: Or or. And then. And then the other thing that’s probably helpful is that, you know, you know, if you’re if if that’s something that’s really important to you, then I would say any time you you only get to buy what you sell. So let’s say you have a– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yup. 


MegScoop Thomas: –closet full the stuff. You sell that stuff, whatever money you make, put a portion of that, a percentage of that pays down your debt and the other stuff you can spend. In order for you to spend you you’re basically only spending money that you’re you are selling your stuff to get that money. Like you can’t use new money, that new money you got coming in every month that has to go towards your bills and paying your debt down. This new money is the only money that you get to spend, like from selling stuff. That’s it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. That too.


MegScoop Thomas: That that may be helpful. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. No, that’s really helpful. I I used to, um, there was a store that was open here in L.A., and I remember going over there, this was years ago. And these girls were all like the girls who worked there. I figured they oh they so fashionable because they work here and they get the stuff for free. They were like, we don’t get it for free, we get a discount. But they were like, we just resell our stuff. Like we don’t– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Buy new stuff, so they’ll put it on eBay, they put it on poshmark, they put it on the real girl, whatever. They’re like, whatever money we get, that’s the money we use to buy stuff, anything else like we don’t because they’re like– 


MegScoop Thomas: That’s smart. 


Dr. Imani Walker: We ain’t got money like that. So I think that’s a really good suggestion um because um it sounds like if you’re buying that much stuff, some of this stuff is is expensive and some of this stuff can definitely, you know, go back or be consigned or– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Something so and before you can sign them, you might want to let me know which you have. Just so I can see it. Just so I can see if I want any of it. Okay. But anyway, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Jeanette. Um. Thank you so much Jeanette for your letter. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. Our next letter comes from a listener by the name of Tina. She says, Hey, Dr. Imani and Meg, I need help cutting off my husband’s family. I think they are all toxic as fuck. I love my husband, but does that mean I have to love his family? Every time they get together, they gossip about one another. They only come around when it’s convenient for them. They want my husband and I to drop everything when they call. I reached my breaking point when they all RSVP’d for my daughter’s birthday and didn’t show up. I spent over $1,000 on tickets for them to attend and they called after the party and oh. I spent over $1,000 on tickets for them to attend and they called after the party just to say, my bad. The next day they are pulled up to my house unannounced to kick it. I am just tired of them and their lack of other people’s feelings or time. Well, more like I’m tired of them not respecting my feelings and time. When I bring it up to my husband, he always has an excuse for them. When I confront them on my own, they make it seem like I am the problem or I am too sensitive. I’m sick and tired of that family. For the sake of my mental health. I need a break from them. How do I set boundaries or time limits on the time I have to spend with them? If I could have it my way, we would just not associate with them any more. Family or not. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, okay. Hi, Tina. All right, so, listen, um this sounds like one of those um reddit like, am I the asshole questions? Um. 


MegScoop Thomas: Oh, yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But basically, Tina, you’re fine. Like, you’re fine. The issue is really. I’m not even going to say. I mean, yeah, your husband’s family is wilin’ like they like they’re completely being disrespectful, like you said, of you and your time. The problem, honestly, is your husband. Um. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yup. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Because you and your husband have created this life, and you’re you guys are a family now. And when you marry someone, that person, you know, puts you first and that person looks out for you. Because by looking out for you that you all are able to maintain, like, y’all’s best interests together. And he needs to really understand a little bit better, like, yo, like your family is really doing the most. Like, I know that this, you know, isn’t really a big deal for you, but for me, like if I had to spend all, what’d you say like $1,000? If I had to spend $1,000 on nothing? Mm mm. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’d be like, I’m never speaking to you again. Like even. Like, even if you paid me back, you can pay me back. But we still going to have a long ass conversation about about my time and my money, because this is not cool. And, like, I’m just like, I don’t even understand. Like, I wouldn’t even treat a stranger like that, let alone, you know, a person who’s in my family. So your– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Husband obviously is not obviously, but he’s I guess he’s more understanding of how trifling his family is because he’s from that family. But that’s not that’s not for you to have to deal with alone. And he needs to understand that. That this is really, really important because it’s it’s this like yeah, like people break up because, you know, like somebody cheated or, you know, whether it’s, you know, like fidelity in terms of like, you know, cheating as far as a relationship outside of your relationship. Or maybe it’s like fiduciary cheating. But these are the kinds of things, these little things that take root like and just flourish and then it just becomes a whole thing and um. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yup. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I don’t know. Let me see. I don’t know how long you guys have been together, um but this is something that really needs to be nipped in the bud. I’m guessing you guys are not newlyweds, but, like, maybe been married for, like, less than five years or so. Because this is something that really needs to be squared away, like before you guys get married. Um so I’m not married anymore, though. 


MegScoop Thomas: [?]. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You are so. So what’s what’s what’s your take on it? 


MegScoop Thomas: Well I ain’t married, girl. I’m engaged okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh yeah that’s right. 


MegScoop Thomas: I got [?] my own. 


Dr. Imani Walker: My bad, my bad. I forgot you’ve been engaged— 


MegScoop Thomas: Girl. I ain’t I ain’t in that group yet–


Dr. Imani Walker: –Forever. Sorry.


MegScoop Thomas: I have been. You know, I’m. I’m in therapy. Y’all pray for me. But um, Tina, so you it’s a boundary situation, like you said. Okay. How do I set boundaries or time limits? This is what you have to do. You need to sit down with your husband, because I’m assuming there’s probably other boundaries that you need to set with him that have nothing to do with this particular topic. Because and the reason I say that is if you had boundaries with him in other areas, then this would be easy for you to set a boundary in as well. So there’s I think there might be other areas of your life where there’s boundaries lacking. I say all that to say for this particular topic, you do need to sit down with him and you need to say, tell him how you feel and you need to have a game plan. So let’s say, for example, you know, the next holiday that’s coming up is Christmas. Maybe y’all are going to somebody’s house or, you know, maybe they’re coming to your house. You know, you need to go ahead and say, hey, this is the things that I need that is going to make me feel okay if I don’t feel like safe. You know, if you if I feel like you’re not hearing me, then these are the things that I’m going to do and leave it at that. If he chooses to be like, well, they can continue to act like how they want to act. Okay, well, he gonna have some problems. That thousand dollar tickets that you spent, girl, you got his account– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: –Information? Take that out of there so he can start feeling it like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Mmm hmm


MegScoop Thomas: –this. You know, because I’m going to tell you right now, my fiance, if it was $1,000 that his family just didn’t show up on, he would be mad. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Even if I had paid out of out of my personal account, because this is our like that’s money that you just threw away, burnt in the air, you know? And if he wasn’t mad about that, then maybe you need to start pulling the money out of his personal account so he can feel what $1,000 into thin air feels like, right? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: I don’t know. That’s just one thing. But, you know, he’s used to it. You’re going to have to set the boundaries. He doesn’t seem to know how, um and he can either get with it or y’all gonna have some problems in your marriage because it’s not only going to get worse. As people get older, people get more set in their ways. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: It’s going to get harder. It’s gonna get harder to fix this. Um. So yeah, you need to sit down with him and just tell him what your boundaries are. You need to sit down and you know what your what you want your time limit to be. What are you comfortable with? You know, um and keep in mind, too, this is still his family. So don’t be like we can never spend time with them. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Even though you said, you know, you you would rather not associate with them. We know that’s not okay, because that’s still his family, right? As long as there’s no abuse happening, girl, you still got to you still got to hang with your in-laws, alright? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: You know, but I would say as as far as the amount of time you do need to figure out what is acceptable to you, and then go ahead and tell them, like, hey, this is what I’m okay with. And if you want to stay over there with them longer, do you. Me, I’m a get the kids, we coming back home or I’m coming back home after X amount of time? You know, you might have to start doing stuff like that, unfortunately. And after a while, if he loves you, he’ll start to say, okay, the family I created has to come before the family I was born into. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: Um. Because that’s just what it is when you’re married. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Exactly. And also, don’t play with people’s money. Like like. [laugh] Mm Mmm.


MegScoop Thomas: Right. Oh, child, every one of them would have got a phone call or card. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Hell yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Thank you for nothing card.


Dr. Imani Walker: Right? It’s like, I don’t know–


MegScoop Thomas: A thousand dollars?


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Child. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m like, I don’t know where this money’s coming from, but I know somebody’s paying me something, like whether–


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –It’s my husband or his, like some like I’m getting $1,000 in my account today. And how that happens, I don’t know. But it’s going to be there. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: And it is, it is up to your like for them showing up to your house unannounced like that’s something your husband should tell them. But after a while, if he’s not willing to do it, then you’re going to unfortunately have to be in the position to tell them, because I’m I mean, I’ve had a situation like that in my family and I was just like look. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, no, we’re not going to uh. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: I’m a just have to tell you cause.


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: I live here, too. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: He’s supposed to tell you. He don’t want to. That’s fine, but I’m a tell you. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right? Yeah. And honestly it may it might be a situation where you you may need to talk to them directly because it sounds like you’re going– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Like through your husband, which, you know, I completely understand. But I would tell him and then I would be like, you know, I’m going to tell you, like, legit, we need to you need to work on boundaries with your family. And then I’m going to talk to them because I don’t want, for what I’m saying, to be twisted or minced or in any way changed because they need to really, not that you gonna go off on them, but they need to really understand that the the depth of this situation and how hurtful it is to you. 


MegScoop Thomas: For sure. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So, yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So I hope that helped, Tina. And thank you, Jeanette and Tina obviously for submitting your questions. I hope we were able to help you guys. 


MegScoop Thomas: And if you’re listening, um and you have any questions or problems centered around mental health and you want our help, please send us your emails to Or you can text us and leave us voice mail at 818-252-9462. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay, you guys, we’re going to switch it up. We’re going to be taking a quick break. But after the break, we’re going to be chatting about other people’s moral codes and what can happen if they’re compromised. Stay with us. [music break]. 




Dr. Imani Walker: Okay, everybody, it’s time to get into this deep dive. As everyone continues to create their new normals, heal and reflect from the pandemic. I wanted us to all take a moment to talk about the invisible epidemic many faced after the pandemic known as moral injury. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay, let’s talk about this, because I know moral injury is not a new term and it’s not just like just about the pandemic. So, Dr. Imani, I think we all need you to break it down for us. What exactly is moral injury and what do we need to know about this term? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay, so I came across this article and I thought it was really cool. It was an article that was featured in Scientific American and it the title was something the title is an invisible epidemic. And I was like, Oh, and it said, psychology, I was like let me see. Let me see what this is about. Right. So what’s interesting about moral injury and it’s become uh something that’s been discussed more uh since the pandemic is now I uh technically speaking technically speaking I’m a health care worker. I was not a first responder just because of the nature of my job. So I you know, I didn’t work at a grocery store. I wasn’t like I didn’t work in emergency medicine. I don’t work in um I’m a psychiatrist. So I wasn’t dealing with actual physical. I don’t deal with physical ailments when it comes to medicine. Um. I deal with, you know, mental ailments, obviously. Um. And I would hear all these stories about like nurses and doctors who were just really feeling it was it’s it’s beyond it’s not burnout. It’s beyond burnout. It was like I’m sleeping 4 hours at night, going back to the hospital to work, or I’m working these ridiculously long shifts to have these patients and or their families yell at me and berate me and get mad at me when I ask them to wear a mask, or when I even tell them like, hey, your COVID test came back positive and it just like I was like, I’m telling you, I was so grateful that I did not have to be put in that situation because even the whiff of knowing that that situation existed was enough to keep me in the house. Like, even now. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like I have not gotten on a plane since before the pandemic because once– 


MegScoop Thomas: Really? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yup no, I was like, do that shit on your own time, you want to start beating people up on the plane and shit because you you feel entitled or I was just like, because I can’t deal with that. I’m somebody who. I am somebody who is logical and rational and and wants to put the greater good or what I feel will benefit the greater good above myself. And it it was very obvious that a lot of people were not doing that. And I, I didn’t know it was called moral injury, but I was like, I don’t want to be involved in that because that is, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s almost, I mean, a very simplistic way, I guess, of explaining it is like a crisis of conscience. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So moral injury essentially occurs when someone’s core beliefs or their morals are uprooted. And it’s and it can often times like for example, it first came about when there were there was a psychiatrist back in the nineties um back in 1994, Jonathan Shay. And he coined the term because he started to notice that there were some American soldiers who came back from Vietnam and they experienced a lot of traumatic events and they returned with these profound changes to their character. So it was like they saw so much that that that went counter to how they were raised or their morals, that it basically changed how they saw other people. And then it would also change like what they would have normally done when interacting with someone or if someone was in need. It made them be like, ooh, you know what? No, I’m a just, I’m a fall back because what what ended up happening is that they were triggered by events that would violate their moral code as opposed to like escaping death and then dealing with like the fear and the helplessness that that can cause. So it’s not so moral injury, it’s not a mental illness. Um. So it’s not in like the DSM five, but it can be associated with mental health conditions such as depression, such as anxiety, such as addiction. Um. So it’s it’s kind of it’s kind of like– 


MegScoop Thomas: Wait Imani, I’m still lost. I am– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


MegScoop Thomas: –Super lost. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


MegScoop Thomas: As I keep hearing you give examples, I’m like, I think I get it, but then I realize I don’t. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


MegScoop Thomas: So hold on. Let me ask you this, because it sounds like PTSD, but not. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But not. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: But not. So like to me, when I think of PTSD, I think of like a soldier who, like, wakes up in the middle of the night, like strangling somebody because they had these dreams that how they were bombing a place and like like that. That’s just my classic view of PTSD, right? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: That’s not everybody. That’s just like one little piece of it. But then moral injury, as you’re explaining it to me, it’s like that same soldier had to like, let’s say, shoot a child. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: From a different country. Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: But they don’t believe in killing innocent children. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: But when you’re in war. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: Maybe his captain or whoever, was like you have to shoot everyone here, including the children. And so now he shoots the child, he now is like, oh, my gosh, I can’t believe I shot a child. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: And so he returns home. He doesn’t help. Like let’s say he, a little kid is about to run out in the street. He doesn’t help them. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: He doesn’t try to pull them back because he’s just like basically like he’s remembering like he’s, didn’t get to help children. So, like, somewhere in his head, he doesn’t have the instinct to, like, go help and snatch the child back. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Exactly. 


MegScoop Thomas: Is that a– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: –Decent example? 


Dr. Imani Walker: No– 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It is. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It is. And I think to make it even more simplistic and somebody out there can correct me if I’m wrong, because this is not my area of study, but moral injury could potentially cause PTSD. 


MegScoop Thomas: Mhm. Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You know what I mean? So like let’s say there’s a soldier–


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –That, you know, had like shot a child. Whether it was purposeful or it was accidental. Um. That could like that could cause not only their, their interactions with children to change. And if a child is put in harm’s way, you know, it could they could be like, oh, my God, like I like I need to stay out of this. And it could also cause that person to end up with PTSD symptoms, nightmares, flashbacks, um you know, um like, like just really bad anxiety. Um. So, so, for example, not for example, but essentially to to come up with a better definition. It’s the image done to one’s conscience or moral compass when that person perpetrates witnesses or fails to prevent acts that would transgress their own morals or values or ethical codes of conduct. So–


MegScoop Thomas: Hmm okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Kind of like I’m trying to think of an example from my life. Um. [clicking mouth] No that’s not a good example, but I guess, oh, we talked about this. We talked about this on like a previous show, like recently. So remember we had that, that uh that person who wrote in and was like, she, she, she had a friend in her mom group. And the mom and and the friend from the mom group was having sex with a man and the man was married to the to the original person’s friend. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And that friend was like–


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like pregnant with their fourth kid or something. And we were like– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yo, you got to like, stay out of that. It’s kind I mean, this is a very simplistic example, but for me, when I went through well, not it’s not an exact similar situation, but a similar enough situation in high school when I was like I had said that I had a friend and I was like, yeah, this girl that you dating like, she’s whack, whatever. Like, I just think you should really, like, steer clear of her. And his response was to tell his girl. And then she confronted me. And then he came at me and I was like, you know what then. I’m not doing none of this shit. Then that’s that’s–


MegScoop Thomas: Right right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –The next time. Because to me, growing up, I was like, well, this is something that I would want somebody to tell me, but not– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Everybody is, you know, ready to hear that. So ever since then, I was like, Nope, not at all. You got problems with your relationship. You handle that shit. I’m not stepping in. I’m not doing anything. Even if, you know, I feel like, oh, you know, I mean, if somebody were in danger. But then again, you know what I’m saying? Like, so I might be like, ooh, this person is in danger. The other person may be like, hey, like, this is how we get down. Like, this is how we have, like, our kinky fun. So that’s that’s– 


MegScoop Thomas: So that’s what now that’s a moral injury. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, cause I just felt like– 


MegScoop Thomas: Because your your cause your natural belief was to help them in this situation. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: And now you’re like, I will help nobody. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: In the same situation. Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, like I I ain’t helping nobody. 


MegScoop Thomas: That makes sense. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. You got a problem, then you need to handle that on your own, and you gonna have to find out about it on your own cause I’m not saying shit. Um but with COVID, it’s like I was saying earlier when it came to health care workers, like, you know, like I remember the very beginning of of COVID and there were people on the front lines that were like, we are reusing masks. Like that is that goes against not only everything that you’re taught as like a medical professional as a health care worker, but it’s like, I have to do all these things. I’m taking care of people who are dying. I have to put aside my fears of dying to do my job and run the risk well and a lot of times the certainty of getting completely humiliated and and just treated like shit because there are people that I’m trying to help that came for help but don’t want the help. And they’re viewing me as, like, the messenger– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –of COVID. Yeah. Like, there’s no way–


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –I could have. I mean, I could have dealt with it, but I don’t know. I don’t know. Like, that’s it’s it’s just. It’s a lot. Um. So, I mean, we see in a lot of different we see in a lot of different arenas um journalists who are even like journalists who even cover like, you know, those journalists that are like war time correspondents. Um. I know they say– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –A lot. I’m mean not say. 


MegScoop Thomas: Oh yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But they see a lot of stuff. Like especially like um–


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I was I was looking at like the the top photos that I think that there were like in National Geographic or something. And one of them was of like this family that was hi– that was hiding underneath a jetty. And I think this might have been in the Ukraine like over the summer. Like it was like it’s just heart wrenching stuff. Like–


MegScoop Thomas: Aww. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like you’re expected to just cover it and like, cover the story and do your job and you can’t get involved. And that’s a– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right, right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Like that’s a lot. That’s, you know, that puts you that can really like, like fuck with your morals and like skew your just sense of self and like, I mean I would def I definitely understand how somebody would want to isolate and just be like, you know what, I don’t even want to be around nobody right now because people are doing the most to each other and it’s too much. 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. So.


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah, no, I get it. So yeah, all these, these examples are helping me and I guess you could even do it from like a religious perspective, because I know there’s been people that like, you know, were very religious and went to church and then somebody did something at church and now they completely are like, I don’t go to church. I don’t believe in God. I don’t like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah.Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: They completely changed, I guess their moral what they looked at to be more like what was right. Um. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: And now it’s completely different because of something somebody did to them. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: So, yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I mean. 


MegScoop Thomas: I mean, that makes sense. Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: We still hear stories. I heard there was, there was um a settlement. I don’t remember what city it was, but it was like the archdiocese of some city was like, okay. And then this archdiocese is settling for, you know, prior abuse that had occurred by priests to, you know, just to young boys. And I’m like, damn. And and I remember seeing a documentary about that years ago and some of some of them, like as the men grew up, they were like, well, listen, like, I still have my faith. Like, I still have my faith. It didn’t shake my faith. Like, I don’t like sexual predators, but, you know, I’m still I still have you know, I still follow uh Catholicism. I’m still, you know, a faithful person. Then there were other men that were like, bitch, please. Okay? Like you all– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Did this under the shroud– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Of under the under the Umbridge, the cloak of Catholicism. Like, I don’t want to have shit to do with it. And I understand. I understand both. Like, it I understand both. So, you know, like I said earlier, moral injury. It’s not there’s no diagnosis. It’s not it’s not a it’s not a true diagnosis. It’s not something that, you know, anyone’s going to diagnose somebody with. But but it can be it definitely is a thing and it definitely can be a cause that leads to changes in somebody’s outlook. And and also, you know, their their actions, um especially because a lot of these people will feel grief, they’ll feel guilt, remorse, shame, despair, outrage, basically. You know, a lot of these are very synonymous with depressive symptoms. And they also lose trust in themselves, which is really, really, really key. Um. And then, you know, they may not have really good relationships after that because not only will they isolate, but they can’t trust other people not to judge them. Right. So like, I guess–


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –The this hypothetical soldier that, like, shot a kid in Vietnam, it’s like, oh my God, if I did that, I can’t even trust myself. Like, who am I? 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like what? Like what the fuck. 


MegScoop Thomas: What what will people say about me? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. Like, I. Like, I don’t even know how to think about myself, like. And that that can be. I mean, the despair about something like that can be re– take a really, really, really big toll. So um. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah.


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s, um, I found it to be– 


MegScoop Thomas: I was going to ask you how– 


Dr. Imani Walker: –I found it to be interesting. Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: How do you how since it’s not a diagnosis, how do you treat it? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Um. Basically you treat the symptoms as far as the symptoms fit within a they fit within diagnostic criteria of a mental illness. So, I mean, it can be like I was saying a little while ago that moral you can you can you can be the recipient of moral injury or you can be the victim of moral injury, and you can still have PTSD, like because and they’re because they are two separate phenomenon. And so you would treat the PTSD. And and I would say that as far as the moral injury, that’s something that someone would have to really like dive deep into as far as like therapy. Like, who am I as a person? 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Why would I do that? And for a lot of people that are victims of whether it’s abuse or just, you know, just a victim of something similar to this, they oftentimes blame themselves and they really need someone to help them tease apart, like, well, you were a soldier, you were following orders or this person told you to do this. And the the repercussion of not doing that could have been that you were court martialed or you might have been ridiculed. And, you know, maybe you’re the rest of your, you know, platoon wouldn’t have looked out for you if you were in harm’s way. So there’s a lot of things that that have to be, you know, teased out and just sussed out so that these people who have undergone such a moral um injury um and affliction to their conscious can begin to trust themselves again and begin to like also trust other people, you know? 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Because that’s, that’s a lot. 


MegScoop Thomas: No that’s it– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah it’s a lot. 


MegScoop Thomas: That makes sense because it’s that’s that is tough to, you know, I guess there’s a lot of guilt and shame that comes with it, you know. So I’m I’m assuming you would have to what, like treat it like you would treat any other disorder where there’s a lot of guilt and shame surrounding it, right? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. But it’s but it’s good to it’s good to at least, you know, be able to know that this is called something so that you could read–


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –About or even like you could go to a therapist and be like, Yo, I’m having a moral injury. And then they’re like, okay. 


MegScoop Thomas: That is, yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Cool. Like, let’s talk about it. 


MegScoop Thomas: That’s dope. Because I never yeah, I’d never heard of this. And you know, when we’re figuring out what we’re going to talk about, I’m like a moral injury? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: I don’t get that. Do I have a moral injury? Probably. I got to sit down and think about that. 


Dr. Imani Walker: At some point. But I mean, I feel like you’re somebody– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –who trusts yourself and like, you know, you have put your trust in certain people that are worthy. Um. But I couldn’t imagine being an ICU nurse. I would just be like, you know what? 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I got a I got to switch jobs. Like, I can’t. I can’t I can’t do this. I can’t do this. So so, yeah, that’s moral injury. And, you know, I hope you guys listening got a better understanding of it. It was relatively new to me, too, up to a couple of weeks ago. So I just wanted for, you know, us to do a deep dive into it. And that’s all the time we have for our deep dive conversation today. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yes, that was such a good discussion. But let’s move to our favorite segment, pop culture diagnosis. [music break]


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay y’all. Let’s get right into our pop culture diagnosis for this week. Meg, can you give our listeners a quick synopsis of the Netflix show Wednesday and who we’re going to diagnose today? 


MegScoop Thomas: Yes. Netflix has a new hit now. It’s not about the day of the week. Wednesday, it’s about Wednesday Addams from the Addams Family. If you guys remember, this is a remake and it focuses solely on the daughter Wednesday played by uh the actress Jenna Ortega. So now what happens is um Wednesday has to go to a kind of a boarding school called Nevermore Academy. And while she’s there, she’s tries to get a hold on her psychic abilities. Um. She also tries to stop a killing spree, solve the mystery that, like, happened to her parents years ago. It’s actually a pretty cool show. I will say the first episode, I was like, Hmm. And then I started watching more and I was like, okay, this has got a cool plot. Like, it made you want to keep watching to figure out like what’s going to happen next. It’s really cool. And then, of course, we all know about The Addams Family from whatever iteration of it that you watched. Right. I’m the Christina Ricci, Addams Family like that was. Which, by the way, she makes she she’s actually in this show as one of the teachers, which is really cool. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. No I like that. 


MegScoop Thomas: But like that was my era of the Addams Family. But I know my dad was like the black and white era– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: –of The Addams Family, like so. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m I’m with your dad actually, I remember watching The Addams Family and The Munsters on, like, reruns when I was a kid and um–


MegScoop Thomas: For real? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Oh, wait. I I I watched The Munsters, too. Never mind. So, yeah, I saw them on reruns as well. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, I liked The Munsters a little better. Um. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah, me too. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So I just. I watched The Munsters, but um. But I did think that when Christina Ricci did come out as Wednesday, um when they had The Addams Family movies like Addams Family and Addams Family Values, um I thought she I was like, that’s a perfect fit um and the cool– 


MegScoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Thing. So this show is directed by Tim Burton, which I was like, Of course, that’s perfect. Thank you. Um. Because Tim Burton is really just the when it comes to like film auteurs and just like, you know, just putting kind of macabre, morbid um things on on TV that are, you know, like they’re like like what was the name of that movie? Um. Um. Uh. Something about Christmas? Um. 


MegScoop Thomas: Oh, yeah. The–


Dr. Imani Walker: With Jack Skeleton? 


MegScoop Thomas: Uh. What was it?


Dr. Imani Walker: The night after Christmas o r something? 


MegScoop Thomas: Ugh. What was it called. Yes, yes, yes, yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, something like that. 


MegScoop Thomas: I forgot what it is. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, but it’s like it was like, you know, it’s cute. 


MegScoop Thomas: The Nightmare before Christmas. That’s what it is.


Dr. Imani Walker: The nightmare before Christmas. 


MegScoop Thomas: Nightmare before Christmas. Yeah.


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Obviously, like you guys can tell, I haven’t I’ve never seen it. Um. And everyone, everyone’s like, you haven’t seen it? I’m like, no, I was in college when it came out. Like, I just I just missed it. Um. But Wednesday. So first of all, I love the character Wednesday. I see. I have to keep reminding myself when I watch the show, I’m like, this is not you. Because as somebody like I went to nine different schools before I was 13. So I was always the new kid. I was always the new kid. Um. And I, I definitely identify with Wednesday, just kind of like she’s like, I kind of want to be alone. I’m into really like some morbid things. I like some of the stuff that she, like, got into, she was like, Oh my God, that’s like a serial killer. I was like, Yeah, serial killers. Like, I love serial killers. I don’t love serial killers. I love stories of serial killers. Let me just you know, I don’t want anybody writing me who’s in prison like I heard you love serial killers, like. Mm mm. No, um [laughter] but I really identify with that. I wasn’t I’m not going to sit here and say that I was a goth kid, but I definitely like goth music. Um. So I I really, you know, I really like identified with Wednesday. Um.


MegScoop Thomas: Okay Black Wednesday over here.


Dr. Imani Walker: No for real, I was just like, Oh my God, I love her. I love, love, love her. Um.


MegScoop Thomas: Alright girl, okay Thursday. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay? For real. It was, it was cute cause in the show she was like somebody asked like, Oh, were you born on a Wednesday? She’s like, no, I was born on a Friday. Her mom is Catherine Zeta Jones and in the show and her dad– 


MegScoop Thomas: Morticia . 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Morticia. Her dad Gomez. I was so happy to find out that honestly this is like a really, like it’s a very multicultural, like it’s a, it’s a, it’s a very multicultural show. And it does in some ways kind of tend to skew towards um like, like Latinx. So there’s um, there’s Jenna Ortega, who’s Wednesday. Um. I’m going to find this in one second. The man who plays Gomez is– 


MegScoop Thomas: Oh. His name is Luis– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Luis. 


MegScoop Thomas: –Guzmán. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes. And then Gomez Addams is played by Luis Guzmán. I’m so happy to see him because he has been in so many movies and he’s always kind of like he’s always like the like the uh what supporting actor, but he’s really good in the show. Um. And then also Pugsley. Wednesday’s. Wednesday’s brother. I believe he’s Latino. So I really I liked that aspect. They made it multicultural. The she and Wednesday ends up going to a school that legit is like a cross between um um Hogwarts and it’s kind of like this show is kind of like a cross between Hogwarts and Trueblood. Um. So I really–


MegScoop Thomas: Oh yeah. And that’s–


Dr. Imani Walker: I really I really dug it. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah, it’s a really good way to put it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, it’s cute. Um.


MegScoop Thomas: And I like that too. That it’s really very Latinx whereas like in the past, well first of all, the first iteration of the Addams Family was white okay? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: And then after that, the next iteration with uh Christina Ricci, it was like a couple of Latino people sprinkled in, but not fully. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: And then this one, I feel like the only person in the family that’s not Latino is Catherine Zeta Jones. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. Exactly. 


MegScoop Thomas: So they getting there, they getting there. 


Dr. Imani Walker: They they getting there. Even some of the music they play during the show is like it’s in Spanish. Like, it’s dope. I really like, I really, really dug it. Um. So Wednesday, her diagnosis now I kind of went back and forth with this because I was like does Wednesday have a diagnosis? Like she’s just she just odd. Like, she just she’s just too herself. I believe that. So in the beginning of the show, I’m not spoiling anything like it’s kind of like you know why it’s in the first episode she so there there’s a like there’s a team of jocks, a bunch of jocks and they end up um kind of torturing her brother, Pugsley. And she was like, tell me who did it? And so she does. And she ends up I mean, it’s it’s in a comical way, but she ends up kind of killing one of the jocks. Not kind of she ends up killing the jocks, one of the jocks. Um. And there is at one point, I want to say maybe the second or third episode where someone mentions to Wednesday, she has to see a therapist, by the way, um that she may be antisocial. Um, and I think she is. I think she’s antisocial. I think she has antisocial personality disorder. Um. And so which means that she could be either a psychopath or a sociopath. I don’t find her to be very charming. So I would say that she might be she’s like a sociopath, but she’s actually like she’s on the right side of things. And that’s why I wasn’t– 


MegScoop Thomas: She’s on the right side of sociopathism? 


Dr. Imani Walker: She is like she does things for good, you know what I mean? Like maybe– 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Her methods aren’t what you know is I guess societally accepted. But at the end of the day, she’s like like there’s a mystery that has to be solved over the course of the show, um over the course of the episodes. And she’s like, I’m a solve this mystery. Like, no doubt. Um. But she but she does show up for her friends, um even, you know, in her own odd ways. Like, she she definitely–


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: She’s good at saying no, but when someone really needs her, like she’s there. So I would say she’s got some antisocial personality disorder traits, but at the end of the day, like, she’s I love her like she’s bad ass. She’s like, I really don’t give a shit what you feel about me. Like, this is how I do, this is how I get down. And if I, you know, if you show love to me, I’m going to protect you. I may not show you love in the conventional sense, but I’ll make sure that nobody messes with you. And I really. I really appreciate that about her. Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: And she can fight. [banter] Like really well. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, my God. 


MegScoop Thomas: Like she can fight. 


Dr. Imani Walker: That bitch can fight. If I was like, okay, Wednesday. No, I really I really, really– 


MegScoop Thomas: Like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Really like the show. 


MegScoop Thomas: –I like this Wednesday. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. So I got halfway through. Um. I was trying to binge it a uh a little bit more before we uh recorded this podcast. But um but yeah, I love it. I’m going to finish watching it today, I’m sure. So–


MegScoop Thomas: Same yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m going to finish watching it. I will say though it was the first episode for me. I was kind of like, okay, now what am I, what should I expect? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: I was the one thing that I always have been a little confused upon, maybe not as much in the other Addams Family, but like as I got older, I’m like, okay, because everything of course, for Addams Family is like, you know, darkness and things that you think are good are like eew. Things that are bad are like, yay, but then like there are certain things that are always the same. So for example, like, you know, there’s no touchy feelyness. We don’t do that. Like, you know, Catherine Zeta Jones says, like, Oh, you think I’m a terrible mom. Oh I’m so that makes me so happy, right? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


MegScoop Thomas: Like it’s that kind of humor. But then when it comes to like love, like you see Morticia and Gomez are like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: –super in love and super happy. But like in my head, I was like, so. But isn’t love like a good thing? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: So it’s weird. Because there’s some times where it’s like, okay, there’s some things that are universally good that are still good in this universe. But there’s things that are like good that that are that need to be considered bad. So that’s why I always had a and this first episode I was like, wait, okay. Let me just. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


MegScoop Thomas: Is is Wednesday going to be okay with this? She’s not going to be okay with this? I think I asked myself that a few different times just watching this because I didn’t know because of her character, like, would this be okay, would this not be okay. But as I watched more episodes, it became a little clearer to understand her character for me. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. The other thing that I will say about uh Wednesday’s character, too, is that she she rubs people the wrong way. And I think because I’m a woman, I’m a little bit more I guess I like I’m a little bit like like Wednesday like like she she don’t fuck with her mom. She don’t fuck with the headmaster. There’s another, there’s a Black girl who’s like in her class that she don’t fuck with. And I was kind of like. Like, apparently, like, I guess they will be cool later on. But at first I was like, oh, that’s really unfortunate because I really wanted for like, you know, this dark skinned Black chick, she’s super cute and like Wednesday to be like, you know, BFFs. Um. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It didn’t work that way. And, ultimately you know, it honestly has to do with the dude. So, [laugh] you know, I’m sure, like, once that’s out the way, they’ll be like, they’ll be friends and stuff. But um, but, I mean, I really, I really like it. And I think I’m going to I’m definitely going to finish it today. So Wednesday. 


MegScoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: She’s a teenager. She doesn’t like her mom. I can you know, when I was a teenager, I just was like, God, my mom sucks ugh. Um. Because I because my mom wouldn’t let me do any everything and anything I wanted to do, which it makes sense. Um. But um, but I, but I do, but I really like the show and I think everyone’s really great in it and I’m going to finish it today. So, so yeah. So. 


MegScoop Thomas: Same. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. So that’s it, you guys for pop culture diagnosis, we’re going to have another fun character to analyze next week. If you all have suggestions for fictional characters out there you’d like for me to diagnose. Hit me up on Twitter at @doctor_Imani. Hit Meg up on Instagram at @MegScoop and email the show at And again, if you’re enjoying the show, don’t forget to rate and review the show on your favorite podcast apps. Thank you for listening as always to Imani State of Mind. Thank you as always to Meg for co-hosting and we’ll be back for an all new episode next week. 


MegScoop Thomas: Bye. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Bye. [music break] This is a Crooked Media production. Our executive producer is Sandy Girard. Our producer is Lesley Martin. Music from Vasilis Fotopoulos, edited by Evan Sutton. And special thanks to Brandon Williams, Gabi Leverette, Mellani Johnson and Matt DeGroot for promotional support.