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This week comedy legend Margaret Cho joins Louis to discuss Weapons, South Park, The Ultimatum: Queer Love, Project Runway, and the summer’s hottest queer travel destinations from Provincetown to Chicago.

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TRANSCRIPT

Louis Virtel [AD].

 

Louis Virtel And we’re back with an all-new episode of Keep It. And I have an unbelievable announcement. My new album, The Life of a Showgirl, comes out sometime in October, I’m kidding. When Taylor Swift comes out with an album, you just have to remark on it somehow. It just matters to the rest of us. But you know what actually matters more? My guest host today is a bona fide legend, somebody who I think taught a lot of us what funny is, what funny means to us. There’s nothing else to say. It’s Margaret Cho.

 

Margaret Cho I love you. Thank you very much

 

Louis Virtel I am so psyched you are here. In fact, just in particular, one reason I love you being here is that you’re one of the few people who, your comedy has always had pop culture in it. Like you’re always commenting on television or music or whatever. Was that always part of the plan? Did you know that when you’d be performing like, oh today I’m gonna be talking about, I don’t know, the Poseidon Adventure or something? I think so.

 

Margaret Cho I think so. Well, you always have to talk about the Poseidon adventure when we find out that Shelley Winters is a swimmer, and a strong swimmer at that.

 

Louis Virtel Maybe the strongest in the whole crew, too.

 

Margaret Cho Absolutely. Absolutely. What a great film. And, you know, because I live through movies. I live through my music. I lived through what’s out there in the media. And so as a comedian, it seemed like super appropriate to be able to like do that as an artist, you know, to comment on it. And at the time, you know, I started in the 1980s. So not a lot of comedians were doing that necessarily. So it was special, you know, cause I was talking about Charlie’s Angels, which had just gone off the air. This is how long ago this was. So, and being, you know, kind of like enamored with this idea of like roller disco and all like dolphin shorts and you know nostalgia that was only about three or four years old.

 

Louis Virtel You were actually one of the first people, I think, to mythologize the 80s. You know, that became sort of an industry in the 2000s with things like I Love the 80’s and stuff. But you were very on to that early on, or you seemed to miss the 80 immediately.

 

Margaret Cho I missed the 80s while they were still happening. I missed because the 80’s started to not be the 80 around 88, 89. I think whenever Mr. Mr. Appeared.

 

Louis Virtel Okay

 

Margaret Cho It was the call.

 

Louis Virtel They got the power cords and stuff, yeah.

 

Margaret Cho It was the Kyrie I lays on was a kind of death knell.

 

Louis Virtel Into hair metal on the way out.

 

Margaret Cho Hair metal came in and then everybody got really dusty like the um not dusty in the way that we think of now like a negative connotation but actual literal dust like uh durandurand started have a lot of dust in their videos

 

Louis Virtel Oh sure, okay. Okay.

 

Margaret Cho Everything was really brown.

 

Louis Virtel Like the November rain video, you know, like sort of Western tinged also.

 

Margaret Cho Western tension, November rain also was like, there was just a lot of mud and falling down on a grave. You were like lurching towards a grave and then falling down on it.

 

Louis Virtel Right. I think also that was the beginning of supermodels, early 90s. That’s a specific difference from the 80s too, I think.

 

Margaret Cho Yet, well, supermodels and then supermodel, models and rockstars always had that, but I think this was now the monetization of the model rockstar relationship.

 

Louis Virtel Right, right. Also, speaking of pop culture, it must be remarked upon your performance on Celebrity Jeopardy, where you played Rachel Brosnahan and Seth Green. And there’s no other way to put this. You absolutely trounced them. They literally are dead now.

 

Margaret Cho Well, you know, um it I didn’t want to do that because I felt bad because I but I love that show

 

Louis Virtel I imagine not loving that show.

 

Margaret Cho And I studied so hard, so I also had a bit of luck because I had the right rhythm of the beep. You’ve been on that. Yes, correct. It’s the beeper.

 

Louis Virtel No, oh, there was a time on my episode where like three or four times in a row I missed and you realize you’re either in the rhythm or you’re not. You know? Yeah. And it’s some guy off stage who’s triggering it, who’s allowing you to buzz in and if you buzz in early, you’re locked out for a little while. So right, you had that rhythm.

 

Margaret Cho Had the rhythm, that’s mostly, and also you have to listen to the topic, not necessarily the prompt, but the topic that the query is coming from. Because that’s kind of where the answer is, and that’s how they trick you. They’re so smart when they write all of those prompts that they trick with like going off, making you go off on a tangent mentally.

 

Louis Virtel Right, which for the good players, that just gives you the time to know the answer and then wait to buzz in basically. I should also say that we have a second co-host to hear today. You have a friend in your lab.

 

Margaret Cho This is my dog Lucia Caterina.

 

Louis Virtel And I can’t believe this is the first dog I’ve met with that name, most dogs should be named that.

 

Margaret Cho I mean, she’s a wonderful girl, she is a big fan of yours, so I had to bring her because she would not stay at home.

 

Louis Virtel I don’t think I’ve ever seen a dog on this podcast. I also, it’s, she’s professional. She’s like camera ready and. Yeah.

 

Margaret Cho Yes, she’s yeah, she got she had like hair makeup done like super early because she wanted to be like perfectly ready for you Okay

 

Louis Virtel Very good. Thank God. Well, we’re here today to talk about all sorts of pop cultural things. First of all, is it possible that South Park is the new Saturday Night Live? And now that they are being extremely up to date topical, you know, week to week these shows come out and up to day Trump news will be included, including actual like paper footage of Trump himself involved in the episode. So we will discuss that today. We will also discuss our favorite trash TV. Um, what that means to you, uh, trash to somebody else might be real prestigious to us. It can be the opposite. We’ll see what happens there. Also in this episode today, we have no extra guests because did you know that Margaret Cho is one of the greatest people ever? We should just be talking to her.

 

Margaret Cho I love it.

 

Louis Virtel Also, I feel like I could throw any celebrity name at you and you would have just a rad opinion.

 

Margaret Cho I think so.

 

Louis Virtel Check. Can I just be completely random? I am going to pick Gregory pack.

 

Margaret Cho Well, my mother used to call herself Mrs. Peck because she stanned him and she would go see, like to kill a mockingbird, like she would to the theaters and like watch him and they would say, oh, Mrs. Pett, Mrs Pett because she was like, he is fine. And I-

 

Louis Virtel He is fine.

 

Margaret Cho I look at him now and I’m like that’s some fine chai. Yeah, like he has some fine Chai

 

Louis Virtel Also, he was like 6’3 and like 114 pounds.

 

Margaret Cho I mean, gorgeous, but, like, lanky.

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Margaret Cho Blanky and like just like creaky walking around with all these like progressive opinions.

 

Louis Virtel Also, I was just watching a game show called Person, Place or Thing where they were spotted clues like Margaret Mitchell wrote this book and the main character is Scarlett O’Hara and this guy buzzes in and says to kill a mockingbird.

 

Margaret Cho Oh my god.

 

Louis Virtel Margaret, I’m so glad this isn’t a tall building because I’d be jumping off.

 

Margaret Cho I mean he loves the poorly educated this is why we need the board of education. Yes. This is why I mean

 

Louis Virtel I can’t believe your mom was Mrs. Peck.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, she was Mrs. Peck. I love Roman Holiday. She loves Roman Holiday!

 

Louis Virtel Oh, we got the mom impression today, yes.

 

Margaret Cho And then, but I don’t think he fit very well on a Vespa. Oh no. But still. Again, too creaky. Too creaky, but also kind of creaky Audrey Hepburn there as well. He was just a, yeah, they don’t make them like that. Well, I do think, well, Jacob Bellordi has the quality of an old movie star.

 

Louis Virtel He would be the obvious scion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, a little chalamet too. Yeah.

 

Margaret Cho Oh, yeah, yeah true good creaky quality

 

Louis Virtel But he had to bring that back, you know, again, a man who was like 90% scapula.

 

Margaret Cho It’s all the lumbar acting. It’s like a lot of, yeah, definitely. That’s so true.

 

Louis Virtel And then if there’s time, we’re going to talk about gay vacation travel.

 

Margaret Cho There’s gotta be time because we’ve got to talk about that because it’s a very big topic.

 

Louis Virtel And also, you are particularly advanced in this area. First of all, you’re a star of the movie Fire Island. Thank you, yes. So that’s like, the credentials are there. And then secondly, you just do this shit all the time. Like you’re always in Provincetown and stuff. Yes.

 

Margaret Cho Yes. Yes. I just can’t come back from there. Ozempic has hit the bear’s heart. So we have a lot to discuss. We have a lot. The bear lifestyle, I think is like, I’m really concerned about Ozempick and the effect on the bear community, which we haven’t discussed at all.

 

Louis Virtel Margaret Cho, more like Margaret Mead. Look at her. We’re gonna learn a lot about your culture studies here on Keep It right when we get back.

 

[AD]

 

Louis Virtel Netflix is soapy, adulterous, and all around vicarious. Hunting Wives is taking the streaming platform by storm, which got me and Margaret wondering, if we watch even more delicious slop, could we achieve a perfect state of goo-brain bliss? Look forward to that. Today, we’ll examine the results of our research and keep its official summer watch list, Brain Rot Edition. I think before that, we wanna get into something which might be edifying, South Park, and how- first of all, it’s back and actually has technically never gone away No, it like general hospital or one of those shows where I just assume it’ll always be on at the price is right or whatever But I haven’t watched it in 25 years. In fact when it debuted around the time it debuted I remember specifically defending strangers with candy. I’m like, this is my comedy show

 

Margaret Cho Oh, yeah, I love that show.

 

Louis Virtel And it lasted only, you know, two more seasons or whatever.

 

Margaret Cho I love that show.

 

Louis Virtel But what do you make of this new South Park, which is specifically Trump-centric?

 

Margaret Cho It’s healing, you know, it’s like seeing the tiny penis was so healing like we’re a nation Like and I do think that it hurt his feelings Because he didn’t really make a statement about it Like the white house kind of made a statement about it But then he didn’t t go off like he goes off on people for a year like rosie o’donnell like You know bruce springsteen like he Goes off on harvard like he Goes off On things and ideas that people who are against him, but he only sort of made one sort of remark about South Park, I think through the White House, and then never did. So I think he’s actually pretty bent out of shape.

 

Louis Virtel One of my favorite lies, he tells, is that Taylor Swift isn’t popular anymore. Yeah.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, that’s crazy.

 

Louis Virtel Like there’s not one metric under which that could possibly be true.

 

Margaret Cho I mean, she’s the most popular and famous and successful rock star in a generation. Like much more than anybody ever.

 

Louis Virtel No, she, I mean, I would assume she is more successful than Michael Jackson at this point. I would have said.

 

Margaret Cho I think so. I mean, I think that if you really looked at her body of work all together and then you line that up against previous people like Michael Jackson or Madonna. Madonna is the only person that I could say rivals it, but I think it even outshines Madonna.

 

Louis Virtel In terms of, she has only accelerated. You know what I mean? Like, imagine if 20 years in, she was still reaching her best album. Madonna, of course, did that time with like, Ray of Light and music and stuff. But it’s only been an ascent for Taylor Swift. There’s never been like a bedtime story’s wobble.

 

Margaret Cho I would take issue with that. I mean, something’s coming over. Come on, it’s a great. Oh, no, that’s one of my.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, no, that’s one of my favorite albums. I love the album.

 

Margaret Cho I love when she has a really skinny eyebrow so you know there’s a there’s a lot to know but I think that for the scope of the fandom also because I think Taylor it really hits all sorts of people like it’s not Fizz and Madonna it’s like it’ very broad as well but with Taylor it I don’t know even fans like Marc Maron right who must bow down we must bow like her excellence in songwriting, her… Musicality, everything that she does, and their marketing, and the way that she does these tours. There’s a brilliance that we just haven’t seen.

 

Louis Virtel Right, the four quadrant demographic, for sure, because I do want to say that I feel like Madonna was maybe the first superstar who said, actually, we don’t need to include straight men. You know what I mean? Like, they’re just not really a part of the equation, ultimately.

 

Margaret Cho Of course, and that’s the great thing. But also with Madonna, which is different from Taylor, Madonna did not write the majority of her songs. Right. So Madonna is kind of still a product of a lot of her song were written for her or you sort of like.

 

Louis Virtel Certainly early on, yeah.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah early on and so, you know Matt and then a lot of her stuff is like sort of made in production where Taylor It’s it’s her songwriting. It’s her lyricism. It’s her musicality. It’ like her musicianship. It´s everything like it’s it´s pretty incredible

 

Louis Virtel This is what I love about South Park, I have to say. Just to get back to that, since we are talking about it, I did appreciate on South Park. I’ve heard every Kristi Noem joke possible, like, all right, we all know she like shot the dog the one time or whatever, and she admitted that in her memoir. Something about just the whiz bang of actually seeing her with the animated gun, like go into at the end of the episode, they just show her walking into a pet store and you see a silhouette of her. Shooting around just that kind of like so stupid treatment of her beyond having to just make fun of her for having this chapter in her memoir was just so pleasing turning them into a literal comic strip character.

 

Margaret Cho Right. And she didn’t mention that. Like she was super upset that it was lazy to make fun of her looks, but she did not mention the fact that they really did a great job with the dog. Like it was, I was flinching, like because I don’t want to, even if it’s an animated dog, I don’t want to see a good shot, but every time it was great. But the way that she kind of put it like, and the way she put it in her book, like sometimes you have to do things that are hard, which is so, she’s so gross, but I did love also the face that kept falling off.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Oh, and it got more and more disgusting. It was like the painting, the scream every time.

 

Margaret Cho It was all, it was just very, very, the substance, and I was loving that reference, that cross reference too, but really, it’s not about her looks, she’s just rotten on the inside. I think it’s just proven, but the whole, like, shooting the puppies was really, it was a really great joke.

 

Louis Virtel Well, also it’s like, it’s hard not to get into looks when a whole part of her thing is putting together obvious like visual spectacles, like here I am dialed up in front of whatever, this detention center or something. So it’s, like, the optics alone are worth making fun of.

 

Margaret Cho Right. And it’s so grotesque. She’s dressing up to sell a concentration camp. She’s addressing up to put human beings in camps that have done nothing wrong, that are only there because of the color of their skin. It’s so vile that she dolls up with all that Indian hair. I know it’s all that expensive Indian, that good long hair. She’s, you know, got a, I don’t think it’s sculpture. I think it is like a juvenile, she’s got a really pumped, like a three or four vials up in that face, at least fresh. And to do that in order to torture and incarcerate human beings.

 

Louis Virtel I think something I particularly like about what South Park is doing is, first of all, the show could just go on without this Trump world, right? But like, it’s this completely fictional world that’s deciding to dovetail with ours. And there’s something very, I don’t want to say touching about that, but just like, it’s such an extreme caricature based world and adding these people does not seem like a stretch. You know what I mean? So the fact that that fits so cohesively already says something. And then something else I love is that Weirdly, you don’t think of South Park as really like a conscientious show, but really what you get on this show is characters standing in a line exchanging glances a lot and even watching fake animated characters who are like bratty kids see one of these Trump-like public figures do something disgusting and then exchange glances. That already, like that empathy already hits. Like that’s better than hearing just a joke about it. Just seeing two characters be like, this is already so strange.

 

Margaret Cho Right and the kind of like acceptance of what’s going on even though they’re scared and they’re going for it like, oh, okay You know, I love the hesitance, but it’s like it’s a societal acceptance I guess we’re doing this now like the way that society now accepts all this tyranny like we’re just accepting Yeah, that there’s martial law in Washington DC We’re just excepting that Trump’s trying to say that 14 year olds are adults, right? You know like we were accepting it and we’re all kind of looking at each other like uh-oh And it’s a commentary on that too, like what can we do? Where do we have power? Well, maybe we have in power and ridicule. That’s why South Park is so important.

 

Louis Virtel And also, it’s so up to the minute, too. Like, again, it makes me think of what a comic strip can do. It’s like, if we’re writing these up to the minute there’s a relevance. And escapism is that, and that I’m watching a cartoon, but it’s also not escapistism, is that it’s sort of keeping you up to speed on everything that’s happening, too, so that kind of dichotomy, I think, is really cool. And also very unique. I mean, I write for Jimmy Kimmel Live. There are shows where We’re joking about what’s going on, but to incorporate it into a story about fictional people, I think that hits differently and I remember it differently, you know? Like the broadness of the humor hits so well too. But also, it’s a really sophisticated show. I love that they haven’t sacrificed a bit of the actual characters to tell this story. Like Cartman’s storyline is that he doesn’t want NPR to be canceled because he finds it to be so funny.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, yeah.

 

Louis Virtel And I feel like maybe like a lazy critic would say like, oh, they’re both sizing this, but it’s such an absurd thing to like about NPR that I don’t think it is lampooning the left or making fun of the left. It’s just saying this character is, you know, so stupid and so ridiculous.

 

Margaret Cho Well, it’s rooted so strongly in the left, and I think it always has been. Even though they do take other sides in a way just to make fun of it, I think there’s always been a kind of voice of the people coming from South Park. No matter when the era was, it’s always been that.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. So let’s get into more formal trash TV. What else are you watching? That is either rotting your brain or building it up

 

Margaret Cho Well, you know, I think Trash TV is having a moment now because I think that we are, nobody’s watching really because we’re all looking at our phones at the same time. And we need television that can sustain that, which is long episodes that are kind of mostly about nothing and then one big thing happens. So that’s ultimatum.

 

Louis Virtel Which I have not seen yet. You have to tell me about this show.

 

Margaret Cho So it’s, the show is about like, well, I’ve only seen the queer version, but it’s about these lesbian couples who have been together for a while. And then one of the couples has an ultimatum with the other, we’re going to get married and we’re gonna go on the show and we’ll get married. And in order to sort of say they come with their partner that they have given the ultimatum and then they pick another partner from the other couples. Attending the show. And they live with them in the trial marriage. And that’s sort of like a four, three week thing. They go, they live by the beach with another couple. I mean, in another coupling. And it’s very scandalous, but it’s also, there’s not a lot that happens because it’s just coupling for, you know, two people together kind of getting to know each other. And there’s a lot of drama every once in a while because sometimes they’ll be sex or sometimes they’re be. A Spotify playlist, we’ll get out. That was a huge scandal. And so, you know, I think that we like these shows because kind of not a lot happens and then a lot happen. Yeah. And I just, I like to watch lesbians. Oh, sure. That’s my, I mean, I think, that’s my area of interest in my life. So it makes good TV. But another form of the kind of coupling thing is 90 day fiance.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yeah, which is now like an institution of television. It’s like our 60 minutes.

 

Margaret Cho There’s so, I mean, it is like our six minute, it’s like there’s so many episodes and there’s many people in the universe. I saw Stacey and Florian outside of a hotel in Brooklyn and I stopped and I pretended to be smoking a cigarette and I took pictures of them shaking like so hard. And then I couldn’t even take a picture because I was so starstruck. And then, I called my friend and I tried to FaceTime. To show, look, but when I’m around a reality show star, I kind of freak out.

 

Louis Virtel Well, I’m telling you there’s something about seeing a reality star out in the wild that is for me Namely one that’s like popular in that moment That is a little bit more powerful than even seeing like our like a real a list movie star I remember at the time it was 2009. I moved to la Literally the guy who just got kicked off american idol. I I had a friend in from iowa where I went to school And we saw him Like we we had just seen him eliminated an american idol his name is scott macintyre Um, and we shrieked. I mean, it was like fully Beatlemania, you know, and it’s also it’s that thing like you’re a celebrity, but you’re one of us. I maybe that’s a part of it. I don’t know.

 

Margaret Cho There’s a kind of earthbound quality that the reality show people have, but that’s still very much star-like. I don’t know what I would do if I saw Tiffany Pollard. If I met her, I would fall down. I don’t know. I would be arrested. I don’t think I could find words to speak. I would want to say, I’d like to let Gemma know. Like, I would want to recall all of her famous soliloquies. You know, like, because they’re so meaningful to me.

 

Louis Virtel Also, she’s so monolog-driven and catchphrase-driven that I don’t know that she’s meant to be interacted with. You know what I mean? So it’s like, how do you talk with Tiffany Pollard?

 

Margaret Cho Monolog Thriven, she really is.

 

Louis Virtel She’s Tennessee Williams.

 

Margaret Cho Like she really is, I mean, it is sonnets.

 

Louis Virtel Yes!

 

Margaret Cho They’re like, when I was working on Fire Island, I was next door in our dressing rooms with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, and I could hear them doing Tiffany Pollard.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, you don’t say. That does sound like that.

 

Margaret Cho They’re all made in shoes. It was so.

 

Louis Virtel I’m so sorry Beyonce or that whole monolog. Yeah

 

Margaret Cho I mean, to me, she’s like the poet laureate of the gay community. Like she’s definitely.

 

Louis Virtel She’s speaking at the inauguration of the first gay president.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. That’s, right. I mean, she’s just, I don’t think of another terrestrial celebrity or like a, you know, a movie star that could compete.

 

Louis Virtel No. I mean, we haven’t had a housewife yet who’s that quotable. In fact, my problem with the housewives is actually a similar problem I have to Get Ready, The Simpsons, where when people quote it, they don’t realize there’s not enough context. Like it’s not funny enough. Like when they’re just like, and she said, you’re crazy. I’m like, well, you don’t say that sounds like something that would happen every episode.

 

Margaret Cho We need the context for it to really shine in the brilliance. Like we do need the contacts in housewives. The one person that I would say is the exception was Chiu. I would Say Lisa Rina is the exceptional because Lisa Rini, you could take out and can do anything anywhere. She’s very versatile.

 

Louis Virtel And very game.

 

Margaret Cho She’s very game, she’s really like up for whatever and has a great sense of humor about all of it. So I love her and then also Jennifer Tilly.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yes, and of course, I believe all poker players. I’m so sorry, Joan Rivers, who got into that fight with Annie Duke, but I believe the sanctity of poker people.

 

Margaret Cho She is very, like I love her poker face and I love that she doesn’t need it. She’s a billionaire. She doesn’t it.

 

Louis Virtel I love that, the Jamie Gertz’s, the people who just got the money somehow.

 

Margaret Cho They don’t need it. Yeah. They don t need any of they don’t need any of you. Like I love the women who just don’t need it like like Eve, Eve, she doesn’t need it now. They don t need it

 

Louis Virtel Oh my god, Eve, I miss her.

 

Margaret Cho I miss her, but she’s, you know, billionaire living in the Cotswolds or in the England with her rich white husband. She’s Enyaing or whatever. Yeah. Also Enya doesn’t need it.

 

Louis Virtel No. Enya is like, please just let me sit behind a gargoyle the rest of my life.

 

Margaret Cho What a treasure. What a wonderful, that’s a life plan. That’s what to live for. That’s I want to be.

 

Louis Virtel You know who remains like the gold standard of reality stars? I’m upset. If I saw them in public, I wouldn’t know what to do is real world cast members. Because they were so, I mean, it’s a groundbreaking show anyway, but like you couldn’t help but get to one, know those people and just to, it’s like, it’s you want to follow them for the rest of their lives. I can’t explain it. Right. They were documented and they were just in that era before you knew how to act on camera. And I think that was true. Even into the 2000s. Like people didn’t really figure it out. They were just like complete messes on camera. Like that girl Kelly Wolf who used to be married to Scott Wolf. She’s like going through some drama right now. I can’t stop. I keep thinking about Kelly Wolf because I love the real world New Orleans so much.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah. And then you think about them in the context of the show and then you think about the after and then the after is like so it’s so much misery and you want to know like I want to fill in the gaps like I don’t want to stop watching you. Yeah. I wanted to keep watching you right and there’s a reason why these people are cast. There’s a brilliance to reality show casting and then there’s people that you want to see. Like I think about all of the girls from the Flavor of Flav, Flavor Of Love.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, got pumpkin?

 

Margaret Cho I think about Pumpkin and Buckwild. Tasty? Please!

 

Louis Virtel Which I believe was T-A-Y-S-T-E-E.

 

Margaret Cho Who is the one that got the panties thrown?

 

Louis Virtel Oh God, that’s taking me back. I forget which one.

 

Margaret Cho That she said that she looked like Beyonce. This was a Tiffany Pollard episode. And there was a panties thrown, and the panties stuck to the wall or something like, there was some kind of, I think, I don’t know. This was, I Think Pumpkin Spit.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, that does sound like pumpkin. The pumpkin I know, she’s a spinner.

 

Margaret Cho She’s a bit, Buckwild lost her accent.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, very Madonna.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, I think about all of those start, you know, like that era or bad girls club.

 

Louis Virtel Bad Girls Club, which was, by the way, like 26 seasons, it was fully gun smoke.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally. Totally

 

Louis Virtel This went on and on.

 

Margaret Cho It went on and it was like mousetrap. It’s never closed. It never closed

 

Louis Virtel It’s still out on the West End. It’s out on…

 

Margaret Cho It’s still out on the West End. I mean, the Bad Girls Club was like, I said the genius of you wanna watch these girls and you wanna them fighting. You wanna watch, is it Tanisha? Hitting the pots and pans in the hallway.

 

Louis Virtel Right, no, chaos, Big Brother has some of that too, where people get so stir crazy that they are just intentionally antagonizing each other. In fact, I was just saying my favorite thing about Big Brother, a show I generally speaking keep up on, is that everybody on that show is a quote unquote super fan. Like you get the talking head of them being like, this is my favorite show I’ve been watching since seasons one, which is by the way over 20 years ago. And then they get on the show within one day crying on camera. Like it’s the worst decision of their lives. And yet they can’t help themselves. They’re like drawn into the fold.

 

Margaret Cho I think there’s a lot of things happening on Big Brother. I think it’s withdrawal from devices.

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Margaret Cho And the fourth.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, occupying the brain.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, occupying the brain and forced communication with other people that’s unbroken. Because even if you’re like in a social context now, you have the ability to break contact with your phone and then you have this isolating thing. And you know, for a lot of people, that’s just a sense of safety and home, much more than we realize. So whenever they’re on a reality show where their devices are taken away, we’re watching like the withdrawal of electronics.

 

Louis Virtel Right. And I’m sure a deep sadness. I mean, an actual withdrawal sits in. I mean, like when you watch the feeds on Big Brother, it’s a lot of people sitting together saying nothing. You know, it feels like they’ve been chloroformed or something like a gas is being introduced to the room.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, because phones affect us mentally so much. I don’t think we realize the effective, like the radio static of phones and always being able to look at something and just ambient sounds that we’re always, like everybody’s always listening to a podcast. Everybody’s always listened to music. Everybody’s listening to something outside because of our phones, their entire entertainment systems and communication systems that are built in. So when that’s gone, that’s 12 hours of your day gone.

 

Louis Virtel What would you miss most if you were in the Big Brother house?

 

Margaret Cho TikTok. Really? Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel What do you get most from TikTok?

 

Margaret Cho I watch people eat Buldak ramen. I realize that’s like my whole feed.

 

Louis Virtel My theme would all be like retro footage of like night of a thousand stars and stuff.

 

Margaret Cho Ooooooooooooooo

 

Louis Virtel Like pure retro, like Nick at Nite style or TikTok.

 

Margaret Cho Wow, that’s incredible.

 

Louis Virtel But if I what I would miss most is Wikipedia because I would think to myself like You know was little kim seventh build in joanna man. Yeah, and then I’d be like, oh you can’t i’ll never know I won’t know until october

 

Margaret Cho Now you have to know like yeah, that’s true. I actually would really miss Wikipedia because I’m always looking I want to know

 

Louis Virtel And donating.

 

Margaret Cho Yes, donating also, but you know that there’s so much information that I need right there.

 

Louis Virtel Right. No, I can’t imagine, and I’m positive I’m going to be cast with people who don’t know shit.

 

Margaret Cho You know

 

Louis Virtel You know, so I have to be the one to, you know, be able to name whatever the 2002 best supporting actress nominees.

 

Margaret Cho I need to know. Have you been asked to be on it?

 

Louis Virtel One of my best friends won it in 2013.

 

Margaret Cho Mm-hmm.

 

Louis Virtel Um, no, though I think if I were on a reality show, I would pick that one because it requires no talent You know like you sort of just get to say a joke every once in a while to camera Hopefully I would be funny enough that I would Be the talking head guy, but I really feel like they only pick one funny person A year or or intentionally funny or not. So you have a lot to compete with

 

Margaret Cho Yeah. It’s hard to know. I wonder what it would be like to, because we just don’t know what we’d be like in that situation. We don’t, I mean, other than, you would know if you’re on House of Villains, which I actually love too, House of Villains is, Tiffany Pollard was on that. Yes. And she went toe to toe with Omarosa, one of the great monologs.

 

Louis Virtel The idea that it took us this long to get to that.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, I mean that’s like Madea that should be restaged every two years

 

Margaret Cho every two years. I mean, it is totally material. Not that Tyler Perry won’t.

 

Louis Virtel Not the same, no. No, not the same. I’m talking about Judith Anderson, yes.

 

Margaret Cho But it was Titans going to war. Like it was like the battle of good and evil.

 

Speaker 4 Yes.

 

Margaret Cho But it was just so good, but House of Villains is good because they know that these are all people who have had problems on reality television and caused problems. And so the whole show is set up for that. So I love it.

 

Louis Virtel Also, Tiffany Pollard’s set-up as a villain against Omarosa is just so important, too. It’s so important. Because Omarosa, like, deeply sucks.

 

Margaret Cho I mean, she worked for the first Trump administration. Like it’s just, it’s the worst of the worst.

 

Louis Virtel And by the way, like the offer to her was just, we got you a desk. Like there wasn’t like a clear like M.O. Or like, go ahead and help in this thing.

 

Margaret Cho She’s like, she’s just a symbol that Trump isn’t racist. See, that’s what she was, but it was really, I mean, she was just the worst. And so it’s so great to see the great Tiffany Pollard.

 

Louis Virtel Are you a Project Runway person?

 

Margaret Cho I am falling out, but I know I could dive right back in.

 

Louis Virtel There’s a new season right now and Heidi is back. Yeah, oh good. Heidi refuses to be too likable, like she’ll still be kind of curt and rude. Yeah. Which I like. It’s just German supermodel privilege. Like she’s just like, allow me to be me. I will say this, the show is in the interesting position of Christian Siriano is now doing the Tim Gunn job of mentoring the contestants. And he’s probably better at it than Tim Gun and that he’s in the industry. Right. And it’s just he knows immediately what he thinks, you know, and he’s just, like, you really should change this. That said There’s just something about Tim Gunn and the empathy factor and the, I couldn’t help but notice you don’t know how to, you know, whatever. It’s like there’s a light character quality that I am missing from Christian Siriano, even though he’s good and even though, he’s funny.

 

Margaret Cho Right. Yeah. I mean, I want to watch him do that because I think he’s such an interesting designer and I do love his point of view. Like he is the greatest American designer right now. So it’s wonderful to have that perspective. And I also love Law Roach.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, no, Live Roach is crucial right now.

 

Margaret Cho He is so cutthroat, like he doesn’t mince word, like he is so right and so righteous about it that I love the precision of his critique. Like I’m talking mostly about Legendary, which was the great.

 

Louis Virtel With Megan Thee Stallion and yeah.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, the greatest voguing show with Jameel Jameal. Yes. I mean, the Greatest Voguing Show, I think, with Leomi and like, I really miss it.

 

Louis Virtel That show was unbelievable. The production value was crazy. Yeah. And also just everybody was like handing it to you. It was almost too much. Like it was hard to pick a winner really.

 

Margaret Cho It was so hard, but then when Law Roach would be critical, he would just tear you down. I think Tiffany Haddish gave a 10 to somebody, and then he said, well, that seemed like you were given that as a GoFundMe. And it was so, hard, and it was good. Law Roache, I think, is such a welcome voice because his praise is so powerful because his criticism is so piquant.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. And also, he is just a great natural successor to Michael Kors, which I was just discussing with friends, is sort of like a kind of gay guy we don’t really have as much anymore, just like a snarler. You know what I mean? Like somebody who says, oh, like walks into a room and basically acts like it smells, you know, and like just the legendary lines about like bad outfits and, oh of course this is bad or whatever. And it’s always hit so hard. Their only voice of reason beforehand is Tim Gunn, who is like the ultimate diplomat. So it always hits them extra hard to realize, oh wait, that wasn’t reality. That was just like, you know, my TA.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Tim Gunn had, you know, a soothing quality of like, he just wants you to be okay. Yeah. He wants you be okay, and then Michael Kors would just come at you with a lot of the former arbitrary rules about fashion, like no white after Labor Day. Yes. Which are just boring and nobody cares about. You know, all people care about now is if it’s cunt. Yes. We just, we don’t care, just it has to be [Unrecognized]

 

Louis Virtel Why isn’t there a show called is a cunt?

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, is it cut?

 

Louis Virtel Like, is it cake or whatever, except it’s about fashion?

 

Margaret Cho Can’t or cunt.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Okay. Should we call Andy Cohen right now?

 

Margaret Cho Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel This feels like it’s eligible to occur.

 

Margaret Cho I think so.

 

Louis Virtel That was a lot of trash rot. I think we both built ourselves on this.

 

Margaret Cho You know we built a house. We built a house. Let’s move in. I know we can live there.

 

Louis Virtel Alright, we’ll be right back.

 

[AD]

 

Louis Virtel Margaret and I have been crisscrossing this goddamn country of ours, and we’ve been taking notes that brings us to our next segment in which we share a helpful guide to the latest queer hotspots, the familiar faces you can expect to see, and some important etiquette questions we feel need to be addressed for the community. So let’s get into it. Were you just recently in…

 

Margaret Cho I was in Provincetown last week and I love I love Provincettown. I mean, I love all gay vacation spaces. Like it’s really to me really is such a pleasure. It’s so great to go there because you feel like Trump isn’t president.

 

Louis Virtel Right.

 

Margaret Cho And everybody is having a great time.

 

Louis Virtel It’s very vacuum sealed where you are. It almost feels like news doesn’t get there.

 

Margaret Cho Right. But it’s like safe. Like we feel safe, we feel together and we just see each other and having this beautiful time in the summer sun, it’s great. But I can see the effects of Ozempic on the bear community. It’s really, everybody’s thin. It’s rough. I’m like, oh no. I mean, but I mean it’s good because I’m on it too. So we’re all doing it and it’s gray. But what I think happens is that when you’re on a GLP-1 you lose desire for food but you also lose desire for everything. Like you lose desire for sex. That’s what’s happened for me. Like I really lost it. And I feel like people are like not, they’re not as excited about dick as they were.

 

Louis Virtel But also, by the way, we’re always talking about how Gen Z doesn’t want to have sex either. So it’s like, like, who is this up to anymore?

 

Margaret Cho Like at first you get a burst, like when you’re thin, cause like I gotta have sex with everybody. You know, cause this body’s not gonna last. You know like I got to show it off to somebody. And then, so you have a shopping spree and then you have bunch of sex, but then you stay on it and then you’re like, oh, it’s weird how anhedonia really sets in and you really start to not care about anything. And like, not in a bad way, not in like a hopeless way, but it’s like really like desire becomes something that’s very on the back burner.

 

Louis Virtel But also, I mean, that’s so conducive to vegging, which is what you want to do at these places.

 

Margaret Cho And vacation too, but also you want to get some dick, I think, I THINK.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, but does it decrease wanting to socialize?

 

Margaret Cho I don’t think it decreases wanting to socialize. I think that socializing is very at the max. Like people are excited to be out. They’re excited to on vacation. They’re exciting to be having fun. But I do think like hooking up is like less. Which is, you know, it is fine whatever it is. But I just know like also as a hag on vacation, gay men, when they’re hanging out, want dick. Like that’s a thing. I think- It’s in the air. It’s the air and we have to listen. Hags have to to listen because they don’t want women to see. What they’re gonna do. They don’t want women to be around after like 10.30 at night. They don’t want us to be witnessed to their staff. So you have to listen when the balls start filling up, like glug, glug glug. You hear it. Like in Provistown, you put your ear up to a seashell and you can, glu glu. You can hear the balls, and when you hear the ball’s filling up it’s time to leave. It’s time get a petty cab. It’s to walk to your Airbnb. It’s a time to make sure you give the gay men A free and- you know, easy chance where they can get together and do their dirty business and not include you.

 

Louis Virtel But in that case, what is necessarily the escape plan? And then where do you go? Does your night just end or do you find other like hags to, you know, hack it up with?

 

Margaret Cho You can hang it up with other hags, which is a great option. There should be like a hag rideshare service, a hag safe house.

 

Speaker 6 Yeah, a hag ride.

 

Margaret Cho A hag ride, a hag ride that we could all go someplace where we could end the night together with a toast and maybe watch some trash TV, which is also, or usually what ends the night with me is I’m at home watching old music videos. Oh. I mean, that’s sort of like a gay night out is it always ends where you’re watching. I’m watching all of the Bangles music videos

 

Louis Virtel Oh my god, I love the song, I’ll Set You Free by the Bengals.

 

Margaret Cho It’s so great. Yes. It’s great.

 

Louis Virtel Um, uh, you know, gay guy music video night is its own brand of thing, which hags I think generally are invited to.

 

Margaret Cho Hags can go to that. That’s not like a, that’s more of like a night where you have with your sisters. Yeah. You know, like there’s different sort of like connotations or where we could be, but when you’re in like a club or like a bar, gay bar, I think that at certain point there’s, it’s the dicking hour and gay men deserve their space.

 

Louis Virtel My favorite Lillian Hellman play, The Dicking Hour. Also, Provincetown has that thing where it’s impossible to get to, which is classic gay destination bullshit. Like you either need to take like a seaplane or something, or you need to, it takes forever to get down that island, whatever. Fire Island has its own ferry service that takes you to a train that takes to New York. One of my favorite things is Blacks Beach in San Diego, which a gay nude beach, and in order to get down to it… You can be a sissy and take the stairs, which takes you a full mile the other direction, and then you have to walk down the sand to get there. Or you climb down this motherfucking ravine, which is straight up the wall from American Gladiators.

 

Margaret Cho No!

 

Louis Virtel Like, you have to be ice or gold to survive, and you are scaling down, you’re watching people twist their ankles. It should be called Pickleball Mountain, the way people are just getting injured left and right. And it is treacherous. Like, I don’t think there is an option for somebody in a wheelchair to get down. I don’t think there’s, you know? But it also appears that gay people like the, there’s this like bridge to Terabithia thing where you have the swing across a ravine in order to get to where you’re going, like romancing the stone. And we like… That would be like the caper of it.

 

Margaret Cho It’s the caper of it, but it’s also, well, you know, if you think about it, historically, it was for survival so that we didn’t have prying eyes on our lifestyle so that could go someplace that other people didn’t want to go because it was too far and it was to scary and together we’re safe. So really the safety measures that, you know, those natural hazards put in place were, were really for our protection. So it’s really, I mean, I think it’s really touching the fact that it’s hard to get to because… It just proves how much we wanted to be gay.

 

Louis Virtel Is your favorite of the Spots Provincetown?

 

Margaret Cho My favorite probably, I mean, it’s hard to say, they’re all great. My favorite is probably Provincetown just because it’s the one I’ve been going since 1986. So, and it’s one that I have like the most friends at, you know, it is the one that is probably like the one, I’ve gone year round, you now, it a place that I hold very dear. I’ll probably be buried there. The funeral plots are very cheap, it was only $500. Oh, cute. It’s a very cute cemetery.

 

Louis Virtel Also, it’s like you can eat pretty well there, right? There’s like things to like museums, et cetera. Whereas in Fire Island, it really is just about houses and occasional big parties, but like you’re not gonna eat anywhere particularly special. In fact, one of the funniest things about Fire Island as you would know from having been in the movie is that there are young, like teenage girls who must live in Montauk or something who work at the pantry and they are. Just baffled by what they are seeing. Like, I was walking past some girls and one of them said, why are all these men in their underwear?

 

Margaret Cho Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel And I was like, I wanted to sit down like the narrator in The Princess Bride, tell them everything.

 

Margaret Cho It’s so cute. It’s very funny because they don’t understand. They don’t get it. But I mean, I do love Fire Island also just the community because everybody from New York is there and just seeing old friends and you know, it’s just about hanging out. And to me, like Fire Island is definitely a more party place. It’s like when you do drugs, it is like where you do Molly. It’s where you’re like out all night. Like that’s the rules about like letting men have their dick are a little bit harder and faster because this is much more of a party situation.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, it’s happening at 500 miles per hour, generally speaking.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, everybody’s gonna get dick. There was one time though, like I remember, I was staying in a house and I had two of my friends stay in the bedroom underneath me. And I came home early and these guys are just sisters, but they’ve both got dick. So they brought the guys back, they brought their tricks back to the room and they’re trying to suck the dicks of their tricks without making eye contact or physical contact with their sister. That’s the worst. When you’re like trying to suck dick, but be private so that your sister doesn’t see.

 

Louis Virtel This should be like a Shoji screen or something.

 

Margaret Cho It’s so, it’s so. And then they actually bumped elbows and they’re like, ah!

 

Louis Virtel But then they’ll remember that forever, once the dick goes down.

 

Margaret Cho When they touched each other during sex, I was like, oh my God, no! But yeah, the meat rock is the wooded area between the Pines and Cherry Grove, which are the big two spots in Fire Island. So the meat rack is where everybody goes to have sex at night.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, sometimes there’s like a big rave out there, but most of the time it’s this hidden in the woods thing Like you’re you’re in a cutscene from Bambi suddenly

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, so when I was first going, I started going there in the 2000s, like Y2K time. So guys, just all they had was the light of the flip phone to look at dick. Wow. How, you know, how like the.

 

Louis Virtel Primitive

 

Margaret Cho Quest for fire, like Ray Don Trong out there trying to like look at dick by the light of a flip phone. It was very, very primitive.

 

Louis Virtel Wow, Nokia, our only source of life. Of life. Oh my gosh, now, also it’s like, I feel like whenever I’m there during the summer, I guess it does rain occasionally, but it does feel like the weather just wants you to have a great time. It feels different than it does anywhere else in the city, you know? Yeah. Actually, whenever I go to market days in Chicago, which I just got back from, which is the big Chicago, they have Gay Pride too, but they have this other thing which used to just be a festival in the street and is now blown up into giant parties. For some reason, August in Chicago… The weather makes you feel like you could live in Chicago. And I just want to say, being from the Chicago suburbs, that is a lie.

 

Margaret Cho Ha ha ha.

 

Louis Virtel Nobody can live there though. I do think that is the best gay neighborhood in the country I love boys town like the proximity of all the bars the fat. I don’t know There’s just something about I feel like you look people in the eye a little bit more in Chicago.

 

Margaret Cho Oh, there’s just such a beauty.

 

Louis Virtel Am I wrong about that? I don’t know.

 

Margaret Cho There’s a beauty to the gay community there. I think it’s because it’s cold out most of the time. There’s the real.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, there’s a real like thankfulness. Yeah, you know

 

Margaret Cho Yeah. So this exciting time where you don’t have to have a jacket on, like it’s like a glee that it’s really precious and beautiful. I do love it.

 

Louis Virtel I was upstairs at one of the giant parties called meet and I took a picture of the whole thing now I want to say it was impressive how many people were there. It does run. I think pretty white It looked like that picture was giving Warsaw pride. I Was like this is a kielbasa loving community

 

Margaret Cho Krakow’s turn, come through, Krakows. It’s so, it’s so beautiful. I do love a really happy, kind of Midwestern gay celebration.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, apparently Columbus, Ohio is fabulous too, I’ve never been.

 

Margaret Cho Yes. Yeah. Because it’s like, yeah, St. Louis. Yeah, like there’s just something so touching about it because it’s hard one.

 

Louis Virtel No, and also it’s like, it’s a hub, right? Because there’s a whole state around it that’s like runs a lot redder. So those people have to go somewhere.

 

Margaret Cho I mean we need these spaces so much especially now with like this possibility that Kim. Dave is going to try to overturn gay marriage

 

Louis Virtel How is this woman, like, Halloween age 2-0 resurrectioning?

 

Margaret Cho This bitch, like, what? Like, and also, why is her hair the same?

 

Louis Virtel No, right, still?

 

Margaret Cho Bitch, like who told you a scrunchie on top was a good idea? Like, this is not what we need right now. Oh, she came back, like how is this going? Why?

 

Louis Virtel Well, how does she sustain herself for the past few years? I’m just saying, like she, it’s like cicadas. I mean, I don’t know where they went.

 

Margaret Cho No.

 

Louis Virtel And if I put my ear to the ground, maybe I could hear them.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, she just reanimated herself to come back and it’s not it’s just at the worst time the worst

 

Louis Virtel Speaking of Provincetown, you opened your tour there. Tell me all about what’s happening on this tour. By the way, I saw you for the first time at DePaul University in 2003 and you brought the house down. Amazing. One of the highlights of my high school experience.

 

Margaret Cho I love that. I’m so glad that you were there. That’s fantastic. But my new show, it’s called Choligarchy and I’m trying to do whatever I can to get rid of this terrible administration. Like I think that we need a whole cabinet removal. Like Gavin Newsom needs to go in and like California closets, that whole thing. It’s so bad. Marie Kondo, just fully like it. None of us get barking joy. Get rid of it all. It is so bad and it’s just, but the one thing that they respond to is ridicule. They’re the most wealthy people in the world, but they cannot afford jokes at their expense. So it’s a very, I mean, you know, it’s all political. It’s, you now, what I always want to do. I was so critical of the Bush administration and I was still wrong.

 

Louis Virtel No, that feels so quaint now, yes. It’s so cute.

 

Margaret Cho You know, to think Bush was bad.

 

Louis Virtel Do you have other favorite comics who do this kind of ridicule well?

 

Margaret Cho I think Josh Johnson is incredible. Oh my God, he’s so good. He’s Michelle Wolf.

 

Louis Virtel Michelle will fabulous. There’s something, you know what? She’s a snarler. She is a snarler. It’s not a dead species, at least in the heterosexual community.

 

Margaret Cho She is so good. She just kills me. Lori Kilmartin.

 

Louis Virtel Lori Kilmartin, my co-writer on Kimmel.

 

Margaret Cho Your co-writer. Yeah, you guys are killing it by the way. You’re doing so well on that show.

 

Louis Virtel Jimmy remains fabulous. You know what you know what he’s like you ever seen all the president’s men Ben Bradley the Jason Robards character He’s like the the whiz editor or whatever. Imagine if he was just adding jokes all the time. Yeah, just like this this Prince You know, it’s like that

 

Margaret Cho I love it, I love, but yeah Lori is like one of my big heroes like since the 1980s. You know I don’t get to see her very often, but when I do I’m just incredibly impressed.

 

Louis Virtel She is hilarious, and she’s the kind of person you instantly want her affection. Like she’s got a reserve about her and a cool, but also like says the funny thing at the right time. And to me, she looks a little bit like Ricky Lee Jones.

 

Margaret Cho Oh, she does!

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Who am I miss?

 

Margaret Cho I mean, really, that’s incredible. Yeah, she’s a really lovely person as well, but also just the caliber of jokes and the speed in which she delivers them. She’s relentless and she’s great. Also, Marc Maron. Marc Marron is really doing a wonderful job in critiquing what’s happening with comedy and with politics. So he’s wonderful too.

 

Louis Virtel He’s also one of these people who kind of just belongs everywhere in pop culture. Like he’ll be like on that TV show or in that movie or doing that interview. Like there’s no place in which.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, in an indie film, like he’ll just show up in an indie film where he’s like, you know, we watch Almost Famous and he’s in there, like, he’s kind of everywhere.

 

Louis Virtel We should also talk quickly about some other etiquette on on Fire Island. Is there any pet peeves you have when people are in gay spaces?

 

Margaret Cho I think any pet peeves I have, I think it’s when straight women assume that gay men have to be in their service. Like there was a TikTok that sort of went viral about a woman who said that she was kind of waiting for an Uber so she went into a gay bar and she got a drink and she was really upset because nobody came and talked to her and nobody was like. And I think there’s this weird expectation sometimes that straight women have around gay men, that they’re, I think they watch, I don’t know, watch too much, like. Reality television or think that gay men are somehow fairy godmothers to straight women, that they’re always there to give you a makeover. And it’s not the case. Like, allow gay men to have their spaces, and don’t have bachelorette parties at a gay bar. Like, that to me is a really obnoxious thing. And I can see why, because gay men aren’t safe, and we have, you know, really wonderful relationship with them. But at the same time, you should respect their space.

 

Louis Virtel Right. I think there is a brand of woman who doesn’t understand that the guys on Queer Eye are paid. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like this isn’t just like their vocation in life, you know?

 

Margaret Cho Right, right. I mean, it’s an honor to be given a makeover by a gay man. It’s an honor to the beneficiary of their life in esthetics, you know, like that their interest in esthetics and stuff. But it’s also not, if you don’t receive that, it isn’t hostility.

 

Louis Virtel Right. My pet peeve, I call this brand of person, and I have been this person several times, scavenger hunter, which is they’re either on their phone looking for clues or going for it. And there’s no socializing in between. Right. You know, like the socializing is almost secondary to whatever world we have going on here. I sound like Fran Lebowitz right now. Right, no, you’re right. But it’s like, you just have to realize that the in-person thing we’re doing is more important than the this thing. Right? You know after a while. And I feel like some people don’t snap out of that. So I’m just to remind people. Go ahead. I’m not saying put the phone away. You need your phone and you need to get home.

 

Margaret Cho Or they have to go on Big Brother, and they have to be like, removed. That’s the thing is like phones are so, it’s a bomb for our social anxiety, but to the point that we just don’t have social contact anymore.

 

Louis Virtel Right or social like kind of obligation. You know what I mean? Like, oh, I have this so I can just live in the comfort area and not open myself up to the risk of whatever vulnerability or conversation, etc. Now I’m like Brene Brown.

 

Margaret Cho Right. Vulnerability is power.

 

Louis Virtel Vulnerability powers everything.

 

Margaret Cho It does empower everything, but vulnerability has become so rare and so unique to people because we have this permission societally to just close off.

 

Louis Virtel And I think the advent of the word cringe is really killing vulnerability too. I know cringe is important. All the greatest things are cringe.

 

Margaret Cho Cringe to cringe, it means you care. Yeah. To be cringe, it means, you are enthusiastic about something, you care about something and you want something and that those things are really important. Yeah. I don’t think that cringe is bad. And sometimes it’s embarrassing. It feels bad sometimes, but it doesn’t mean that we should stop doing it.

 

Louis Virtel Right, oftentimes it means you are being seen, you know what I mean? And you shouldn’t judge just the cringe as like your sole reaction. You can have opinions about why you’re cringing. You should add those too.

 

Margaret Cho Right. We are cringe because we, we dare to reach and we should not stop reaching.

 

Louis Virtel Oh my gosh, now you’re like my Angelo. One last essay question. So when you’re at a gay event and there’s a performer, who are you most excited to see that you can almost guarantee will be on the stage, whatever, at Provincetown or Fire Islander, whenever.

 

Margaret Cho Um, Jake Shears.

 

Louis Virtel I love Jake Shearer.

 

Margaret Cho I love Jake Shears. I love Jake Shear.

 

Louis Virtel Can I tell you a crazy story? Yes. I went on a date with him once, and he’s a very cool person. And he brought me an album of Rita Coolidge.

 

Margaret Cho Oh

 

Louis Virtel Why am I not married to Jake Charis?

 

Margaret Cho I mean that’s kind of marriage material like I was it like a chris christopherson ridicule or yeah

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, it was around that time. She was certainly wearing some baubles

 

Margaret Cho How amazing.

 

Louis Virtel No, he gets it. He’s very cool. And the music is always great.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, he’s, I love seeing him. He’s such a hunk and I love seeing him, I’d love to say a bit of, a bit of Mel C.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, please. Scary Spice? Yeah. Yeah.

 

Margaret Cho Bit of Mel B. I love to see you, Jerry Halliwell.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, sure. She wears all white now. She was on our podcast and only she’s like Emily Dickinson.

 

Margaret Cho Wow, wow, that’s incredible. But yeah, I do, I love it. I love a Dodie Wally.

 

Louis Virtel Jodie Watley. Well, you can’t just say those words. I am obsessed with Jodie Watley I’ve I almost wore a Jodie Whatley shirt today.

 

Margaret Cho Oh my god

 

Louis Virtel I’m The One You Need is my favorite Jodie Watley song. Anytime I hear it, looking for a new love, which I make the bandit Kimmel play sometimes. The kids need to know Jodie.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah. yeah. yeah.

 

Louis Virtel She was on Jet Magazine one time, one of the hottest magazine covers ever.

 

Margaret Cho She is such an icon. She’s such a treasure. Yeah. So I’d love, and before you would see, you would see like a Ruth pointer.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, sure.

 

Margaret Cho You would see, yeah, you would see I mean, Book of Love.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, uh-huh.

 

Margaret Cho Wonderful bands Joan Jett

 

Louis Virtel Of course, Joan Jett is iconic. My answer is Taylor Dane. If you see Taylor Dain, she’ll be standing on top of the 7-Eleven at Chicago market days. You haven’t paid a dime. She is absolutely howling those songs. Her voice sounds immaculate.

 

Margaret Cho She’s amazing.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, never not great like like it’s like a jewel Chaka Khan. Sometimes we’ll be at these two I’m always obsessed with celebrities who are both the best revered at what they do and that and then yet kind of also like Pedestrian level to like Dionne Warwick is both like one of the great vocalists ever and yet also psychic friends Yes, you know, I mean, I like the high low

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, like it’s like, you know, um, like Dionne Warwick will like quote for you. Yes. Like she’ll come back at you. Like she’d come back out here. Like it’s great. She, yeah, I do love her. And also icon. Yes. Um, and his psychic press, which is so

 

Louis Virtel Joan Rivers kind of like that too, you know, ultimate comedian and then also I’m in an infomercial for like, I’m selling gold off my hands.

 

Margaret Cho Right, QVC and answering the phones. Yeah. It’s very proletariat, but at the same time, it’s kind of like high-low culture, but it’s beautiful.

 

Louis Virtel When we’re back, it’s our favorite segment of the episode, it is Keep It.

 

[AD].

 

Louis Virtel And we’re back with my favorite segment of the episode. It’s Keep It. Margaret, do you have any pop culture nuisances you wanna level at us?

 

Margaret Cho I don’t like the attention paid right now to the contrarian. It really like bothers me. Like, so the contrary is like a friend that we have. It’s kind of a little bit akin to the friend who’s too woke. Yeah. Also, I hate that that friend that’s too woken this, well, actually, they’re going to point out the thing that you missed in something. But the contary and it’s like, there’s somebody that just can’t let you just be. Like, it’s a hot day today. Well, actually… It was cooler yesterday, and we’re actually in, there’s a marine layer, so it’s not as hot as it would be, but I can acknowledge that you would say that it’s hot, but it’s actually, I hate that when people are contrarian.

 

Louis Virtel And also it’s like, I mean, it kills a social vibe for one thing, but two, this is where I think everybody could benefit from taking an acting class because what you need to be analyzing is intention. They are doing this to bring a sort of contempt into the room and control the dynamic. And I don’t think it has anything to do with like, I actually want to help you and be your friend. You know when somebody is being friendly.

 

Margaret Cho Right, right. I think it’s like they maybe perceive it as like old school Y2K negging, you know, when straight men have that sort of technique to hit on beautiful women by insulting them.

 

Louis Virtel Which they just love.

 

Margaret Cho But it’s like the idea behind it is like, oh well women are so unused to being insulted that they’ll be interested So it’s kind of like a little piece of that, but it’s also just like a gross feeling It’s like I don’t want to argue. No, I’m just saying something that’s like not even that important but at the same time you’re impressing your like opinion on it in such a Nuanced way that’s super annoying

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, is that also a little bit a part of that, was that that Neil Strauss book, The Secret or something, where like the whole, the game or whatever it’s called, where like you, Negging’s a part of it, anyway, that’s so, who has the time to put in that sort of like Machiavellian, Thor thought, like sex is a good time. It shouldn’t really be about trickery and games.

 

Margaret Cho I mean, it was sort of this idea that you want to date out of your league, whatever that means, and so you want be able to approach women. How can we, as quote unquote, like not attractive guys, hook attractive women through trickery of like fooling them into thinking that we should like them, but we don’t. Yeah. It’s very, it’s weird. Thank you.

 

Louis Virtel I guess that’s led to the whole Charlie Kirk universe in which we live or whatever.

 

Margaret Cho There’s a link to that kind of incel-ish culture, too, that we need to outsmart women in order to get them to like us.

 

Louis Virtel And also gamifying in a way and stuff too, you know that like impersonal everything’s like a zero and a one

 

Margaret Cho It’s weird. Mostly zero. It’s mostly zeros. I mean, Charlie, Charlie Kirk is so gross, but it’s like the weirdness of like not looking at women as human beings and not really kind of seeing them as a whole person and that they’re kind of something to figure out.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, right. My keep it this week. Have you seen the movie weapons yet?

 

Margaret Cho I have not.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, Weapons is this incredibly hailed new horror movie, and by the way, there’s this whole argument online that it’s not a horror movie. It’s a horror film, and it stars Julia Garner, who can do no wrong, and is allegedly still supposed to play Madonna at some point. I hope so, I think she’s gonna be great. And also, because I can’t think of anybody else it should be.

 

Margaret Cho Wait, who played her in the, um, the bio?

 

Louis Virtel Oh yeah, was it blonde ambition or whatever?

 

Margaret Cho Well, there were two competing made for television biopics in the mid 90s.

 

Louis Virtel In the mid 90s. Yeah, yeah. The actress in that movie is named Tarumi Matthews. I don’t know her other credits. I mean, it wasn’t somebody we know from something else.

 

Margaret Cho It wasn’t like Debbie Mazar or something, who I so love. No, that would be lovely. That would be great.

 

Louis Virtel And you know margaret cawley is going to play debbie mazar in this movie whenever it happens. I’ve already made up my mind Yes, or julia fox could be julia

 

Margaret Cho Ooh, Julia Fox would be a great Debbie Mazer. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, yeah

 

Margaret Cho That’s a great, I do love Julia Fox.

 

Louis Virtel Did you just hear who’s playing Heidi Flys?

 

Margaret Cho Aubrey Plaza. That is the most perfect casting. Amazing. Casting.

 

Louis Virtel Casting should feel like relief.

 

Margaret Cho Amazing. I want to play Madame Alex. Yeah. Oh, this is such a good era. In the bathrobe, in the nightgown, always like calling her.

 

Louis Virtel What also blows me away is how young Heidi Fleiss was during that. She was like 26 when all that was blowing up.

 

Margaret Cho I love Aubrey Pauze. I think she’s so beautiful and she’s such a great actress. It’s perfect.

 

Louis Virtel I never expected to be a big fan of Aubrey Plaza. I wasn’t a Parks and Rec person. And then she gave us Emily the Criminal, that season of White Lotus. And I was in, like, oh, she’s like hitting hard.

 

Margaret Cho She’s genius. She’s just beautiful. She was in Provincetown when I was there. Oh, wow. So she was there hagging it up with her gays. She was having a good time.

 

Louis Virtel And she’s really, she’s funny for real too. Really funny. One of the last great talk show guests. Super funny.

 

Margaret Cho Super cool, super beautiful. So it’s actually, and it looks like Heidi Fleiss. So it actually, she has that same like charisma. Cause I think Heidi Fleis had a lot of res. You know, that allowed her to like move around these spaces and do what she did.

 

Louis Virtel You know who facially fits also in the same mold as Heidi Fleiss, Wendy Liebman, the comedian? Oh, she’s a genius too. I love her, I love Wendy.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, she’s a she’s true genius. I just did a show with her. She’s a true genius

 

Louis Virtel Love her.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Um weapons. Okay this is a hailed horror movie starring Julia Gardner actually everybody is great in it um Alden Ehrenreich is in it uh and it’s about this woman is a teacher and all the students in her like uh uh kindergartenish a little bit older than that class disappear except for one kid she goes to school and none of them are there except one and we end up doing this Rashomon thing where we go from one perspective to another. Uh… Uh… Hers then like the guy she’s dating then uh… There’s a junkie who gets involved and we get all their perspectives and basically all of them end up at the same haunted house where the one kid in her classroom lives the one remaining kid in her classroom at that point afterwards i have to say keep it to how the movie turns to comic relief when i so believed in the sinisterness of the premise i felt it was bailing on how spooky it would be. To actually lose a bunch of kids and not know why. Eventually, you realize that just a sort of stereotypical demonic character is responsible for this. I’m literally a Scooby-Doo villain. Think the finer… Imagine a female Scooby Doo villain. That’s what this looks like. And the performance given by the actress playing that role is fabulous. She is great and unrecognizable. I’m going to spoil this because you would never know it’s her. Amy Madigan. Who was fabulous in the movie Twice in a Lifetime with Gene Hackman, the Field of Dreams, wife of Ed Harris. I wanted the reason the kids disappeared to have more, I don’t want to say like import, but it felt like they set up such a sinister, real social vibe in this community and then chose a way out that felt too light for how good and technically accomplished the movie was.

 

Margaret Cho Oh, yeah, what a letdown. Yeah. I mean, that’s a real, yeah. That’s a disappointment, you know, that they, they didn’t take, because it is like, if you really like thought about it and then also the anxiety that we have about kids in school now with all the school shootings. So it’s about harvesting the fear that already exists around situations that are kind of like this.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, right that I wanted something that had like a little bit of insight in it like somebody in the community got involved or something But it was just a brand new character like a character that could have been introduced in a rewrite basically, right? You know, yeah, so I found that sort of disappointing But this movie I’m happy that there’s a movie in August that is this hailed Because we usually have to wait till September October to be like, oh look a Metacritic 86 or whatever, you know, finally Yeah, and of course, I love Julia Garner and hopefully she plays Madonna soon

 

Margaret Cho Well, I hope that she plays Madonna because I think that she has the metal because Madonna is so steely inside. And that’s the thing that is so hard to portray in her. There’s a steely quality in there that the tininess and the blondness that it sort of like denies. But there’s a hard quality Madonna that I think the Julia Gardner also has.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, no, I mean, and she can occasionally be just frightening, which I think will be important when we get to the harder scenes, the boardroom scenes.

 

Margaret Cho You know, like, arguing with somebody about penthouse.

 

Louis Virtel Are being like, actually, you’re still gonna pay me, Pepsi.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, that’s right. That’s right

 

Louis Virtel That better be the Oscar-winning scene.

 

Margaret Cho I hope so!

 

Louis Virtel Because I think Madonna’s hottest look ever is the Pepsi commercial, too. She has the brown hair with the one blonde streak.

 

Margaret Cho Oh, it’s so pretty. Yeah. It’s so pretty.

 

Louis Virtel Like horny skunk, yeah.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, they still used like like a prayer to didn’t they that was there in like a prayer with us

 

Louis Virtel Yes, precisely.

 

Margaret Cho And they still used it, didn’t they?

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, for a second and then they dropped the commercial but still paid Madonna.

 

Margaret Cho They that’s right. Yeah, so that’s what we want to see

 

Louis Virtel Speaking of like a prayer also though, keep it in this movie too. I’m sorry, I’m so done watching people’s hands bleed. I’m Sorry. I don’t care. Like some people love that shit. Like that Cronenberg started this and then we just kept it going. But like the witchy character who appears like does a lot of impaling herself. And I just have seen it before.

 

Margaret Cho Yeah, that is stigmata. Like, it’s just I’ve had it.

 

Louis Virtel That’s for like a prayer. Yes.

 

Margaret Cho Yes, we’re keeping it at like a prayer and nobody gets to use it.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, Fabit, thank you. Thank you, Margaret, for understanding. And also, Margaret thank you for being here.

 

Margaret Cho Thank you.

 

Louis Virtel Rad as fuck. You’re the best. You know fucking everything. Legendary comic, always funny.

 

Margaret Cho Thank you.

 

Louis Virtel I hope it’s a pleasure to be you, because it sure looks like it.

 

Margaret Cho Looks like it was a pleasure to be with you

 

Louis Virtel If people wanted tickets to your tour, could they acquire them?

 

Margaret Cho They can go to margaretcho.com.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, Margaret, that makes it so easy.

 

Margaret Cho I know.

 

Louis Virtel I should go to your website. Do you have cute merch?

 

Margaret Cho I do. I have everything.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, allow me to pick some up.

 

Margaret Cho I love it!

 

Louis Virtel I just bought Jodie Watley merch recently, but I will pick Margaret Cho merch now.

 

Margaret Cho Please do.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, I will and that’s keep it. We’ll see you next week

 

Ira Madison III Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. You can also subscribe to Keep It on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review.

 

Louis Virtel Keep It is a Crooked Media Production. Our producer is Bill McGrath. Our associate producer is Kennedy Hill. And our executive producers are Ira Madison III, Louis Virtel and Kendra James.

 

Ira Madison III Our digital team is Delon Villanueva, Claudia Sheng, and Rachel Gajewski. This episode was recorded and mixed by Jarek Centeno. Thank you to David Toles, Kyle Seglin, and Charlotte Landes for production support.

 

Louis Virtel Our head of production is Matt DeGroot, and our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

 

Ira Madison III And as always, Keep It as filmed in front of a live studio audience.