The Brooklyn Nets' Offseason Drama | Crooked Media
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August 16, 2022
The Brooklyn Nets' Offseason Drama

In This Episode

On this week’s Takeline, Jason Concepcion is joined by Zach Harper of the Athletic. Together, they discuss the Detroit Lion’s edition of “NFL: Hard Knocks” and the English Premier League’s equivalent, “All or Nothing,”  which is focused on Jason’s EPL team Arsenal this season. Then, the duo take a deep dive into the Brooklyn Nets’ drama filled postseason with Kristian Winfield, Nets beat writer for the New York Daily News.




Zach Harper Dan Campbell should not be talking for more than 30 seconds at a time. It loses steam. It loses inspiration. He starts bumbling. He’s like massaging his wrists. The big takeaway were people like he did burpees on like, can he fucking game plan? I know he could work out. I know he could work out.


Zuri Irvin That is the game plan.


Zach Harper It’s a mountain of muscle. But can he game plan? No, he can’t.


Jason Concepcion Hello. Welcome to Takeline. I’m your host, Jason Concepcion. Today I am joined by one of the greatest to be doing it currently and certainly one of the greatest to ever do it, Zach Harper of the Athletic and many other podcasts such as Cinephobe, such as The Athletic NBA Show and many others. He’s here to talk NBA offseason. We’re also going to talk about, you know, EPL versus NFL documentaries. And we’re going to be joined by The New York Daily News’, Christian Winfield to just unpack the mess that is the Brooklyn Nets. But first, what is up? Zach? Zach, how are you?


Zach Harper Excellent. How are you doing?


Jason Concepcion I’m doing great. I’m doing wonderful.


Zach Harper Well, kind words.


Jason Concepcion Yes, you are one of the greatest to do it. That’s true.


Zach Harper I agree. But it’s just nice to hear.


Jason Concepcion Okay, folks, I don’t know if we’ve got some EPL Premier League fans here. I know Ryan is a fan of the footy. You know, the jury is dabbled in it. Zach, I don’t know where you are at with it, but I just want to say that if anybody out there is looking to get on,a get involved in EPL, soccer, in football, in the English Premier League, the greatest, the richest, the most competitive soccer league in the world, it’s it’s a great time right now because there’s just like a lot of great storylines. Manchester United, who won more championships than anyone ever in the History League, is on its fucking ass. Highly touted manager from Ajax, Erik Ten Hag is blaming everybody but himself. The Glazers, the American owners of Manchester United, if they set foot in the country, would probably be tarred and feathered and rode out of town on a rail. And then a viral moment from this weekend. Thomas Tuchel, the manager of Chelsea, and Antonio Conte, the manager of the of Tottenham Hotspur, former Chelsea manager, had a handshake that turned into just like a a grip contest. Did you see this, Zach?


Zach Harper Yeah. It’s the only thing I saw from from soccer this weekend, as I’m not I’m not a soccer man. I’m not against it. I just like I don’t know where to start, right? Like, I don’t know where to dive in, but you show me a video of two men shaking hands.


Jason Concepcion I love it.


Zach Harper Too much. Too much. Well, it wasn’t. Yeah, you’re right. It’s not even a handshake. It was just a can I squeeze your hand longer than you can squeeze my hand?


Jason Concepcion Can I. Can I just continue to squeeze your hand? I hold your hand.


Zach Harper It feels like a like one of those off strip casino games in Vegas Vacation, that Randy Quaid would play. Like it just yeah, it seems that’s what it that’s what it look like. Just who can hold whose hand longer.


Jason Concepcion So apparently. Well, it was a it was a hotly contested match. Tottenham had not beaten Chelsea in like 5 million years and ended up tying the game on a on a like at the death Harry Kane goal, and they go to shake hands, the managers. And apparently the issue for Thomas Tuchel was that Conte didn’t look him in the eye when he was just trying to do the Belichick, like I’m going to walk by you, handshake, quick handshake the walk by and then Tuchel was like no I’m going to hold on and you’re going to fucking look at me in my eyes do just. Yes, Zuri.


Zuri Irvin Sorry no, I’m looking at the tape. I’m looking at the tape, right now I don’t. Yeah, I don’t think Tuchel looks Conte in the eye. He kind of glances by him as well. So it’s like, what are you even upset about?


Jason Concepcion How does everyone feel about do you care if somebody looks you in the eye if you get a handshake at the end of a hotly contested sporting event?


Ryan Wallerson I mean, the context at the end of that is what kind of puts it at less problematic than I think my initial reaction was like I think that it shows that it’s sportsmanship, it’s gamesmanship. It takes a third of a second to do right. To do to not look someone in the eye shows like some level of contentiousness. But it was that type of match. But it’s definitely a strong arm move to be like now you look me in the eye after that.


Jason Concepcion I think I think part of it, too, is that, you know, defend Tottenham defender Cristian Romero pulled pulled his man’s hair, you know, pull this man’s hair and probably cost them a goal and didn’t get red carded or carded or anything. And that, you know, you could argue, I think fairly justifiably, it cost Chelsea the win. But, you know.


Zach Harper Why? Why why are we still shaking hands at the end of matches in gate? Is this Pleasantville? What are, what is the point?


Jason Concepcion It’s for the kids? It’s for the kids, Zach.  It’s for the kids, so the kids grow up and they know and they understand like, listen, adults are fucked up and everything they do is fucked up. But it’s very, very important to have this kind of performative politeness because if you don’t.


Zach Harper Jason, allow.


Jason Concepcion Shit just goes off the rails.


Zach Harper Me to clutch my pearls and say what do you think kids learned this from?


Zuri Irvin I want to say I want to say I wouldn’t care. But in my normal life, when I’m walking down the street and I give someone a head nod or we get into the proper proximity, I do feel disrespected if like, you know, we’re human beings, like, yeah, let’s just have this moment.


Jason Concepcion That’s true. That’s true on that level. I agree. But on I do think like in in a context of sports of of again, very competitive sporting men that, you know, it’s kind of if I disrespect you, that’s kind of cool, isn’t it?


Zuri Irvin This is better for sure.


Zach Harper It’s very trendy right now to disrespect, it is very.


Jason Concepcion The kids are all doing it. Zach, I wanted to pitch you. If you’re looking to get into the beautiful game I am, then Amazon Prime has a series called All or Nothing and I’ll be like All or Nothing Uventis, All or Nothing Man City, there’s a there’s a couple of  NFL ones, right? I think they did the Cardinals.


Ryan Wallerson They did the Rams at one point. I think.


Jason Concepcion They did the Rams. I think so, yeah. And this season they’re doing All or Nothing  Arsenal. Now, that is my favorite team. So I am biased here, but I will say they give them some really, really great access this season. There is that kind of like culture dispute with the star striker of the team where the manager, Mikel Arteta kind of has to put his foot down. And it’s risky because they don’t really have anybody that can score goals other than Aubameyang who ended up just kind of like randomly going to Barcelona, he said, like on a family trip, but obviously also to be scouted by the team and to maybe sign over there and it’s great. Mikel Arteta, who I have been critical of, I completely fell in love with him over the course of six episodes now. He’s just like, you just get a lot of insight, one, into how hard it is, especially with a young team. And he said something that really I think put a lot of the previous years of Arsenal and certainly the years under him in in context, he said you pay for the education of young players with points, meaning when you play young players, they’re going to cost you the game sometimes, but that is the investment you make so that at the end of this, at the end of two years or three years, whatever, you have a cohesive team that understands how to play. And it’s just it’s been great. It’s really, really inspiring. Zach give it a try. You know, it’s an international cast of characters.


Zach Harper Okay.


Jason Concepcion They’re like guys having fun. The trainers are fun. The, the, the coach is a charismatic guy. I think you’d enjoy it.


Zach Harper All right, I’m into the idea because I have at various points over the last few years, this is something I didn’t know, is that as Twitter really took off, all of a sudden people were like, Oh, yeah, this is my EPL team and this. And I was like, Wait, we’re doing that. I didn’t like it, but it was just like like I was the outsider. I’m the outsider in this because I didn’t grow up following any of this. I don’t know any of this. Like I play FIFA, you know, I’m trying to I’m trying to get I’m trying to get I don’t even know promotion. I’m trying to get Nottingham Forest promoted to.


Jason Concepcion Oh they’re in, they’re in.


Ryan Wallerson Wow.


Zach Harper And I’m just talking about my FIFA world. I took them to try to get up.


Jason Concepcion Well, let me tell you, this is why it’s the perfect time for you, Zach.


Zach Harper Okay.


Jason Concepcion Nottingham Forest, one of the signature teams of the late seventies and eighties. Two European cups came out of nowhere. They made a movie about that era with Michael Sheen as their manager. His name is now escaping me. You know, really cool logo with the tree, you know, they’re all yeah.


Zach Harper Yeah.


Jason Concepcion They are. After the most perilous fall, maybe of almost any, like, professional sporting club where they went from two European cups to falling out of the top league. They’re back in the Premier League this year after 22 years of wilderness. So in the league. So they’re back. They’re back.


Zach Harper So now do do they also have a 17 year old American named Zach Harper scoring three goals, a game? Because that also helps me get invested.


Jason Concepcion They don’t. But I think if they could buy such a player, I think they absolutely would because they need all right. They need stuff like that.


Zach Harper But I think he’s going to be on loan pretty soon trying to get some money here.


Jason Concepcion It’s a World Cup year. You’re Noddingham Forest.


Jason Concepcion I do love this cup.


Jason Concepcion Back in the top flight. It’s a great time to get in.


Zach Harper Okay. All right. Yeah, I’m in. I will watch this. I’m hoping it’s more inspiring than what the Lions are doing to me with Hard Knocks.


Jason Concepcion Tell me about it. Because I need to start this


Zach Harper Because I look, I go into a lot of these thinking I don’t believe in this team. Right. Raider. I’m anti Raiders on everything. I just hate the fucking Raiders. I worked for them for a year. It’s the only sports.


Jason Concepcion Wait, wait. Yes. Okay, well, let’s table that, because I need to know more about, about that.


Zach Harper I worked. Yeah. Okay. So I like, I, I hate them. I hate the fan base. I, it’s my only like, real, like I don’t like the Mets as a Braves fan, even though I don’t care. I don’t care. Yeah, right. Like, ultimately, I don’t care. Braves won the World Series. They win this year. I don’t give a shit, but I want the Raiders to suffer every game, every quarter of every game, like I want them and their families to suffer every fucking game. And so when Jon Gruden comes out, there is like, you know, I’m not into dreams, I’m into fucking nightmares, right? Everyone’s like, Oh, and I’m like, they went seven in nine, like they were seven in nine the next year. And then the real nightmare was his emails being leaked. Like, that’s the real nightmare that he’s probably not into. And then last year I walked away from the Cowboys Hard Knocks thinking, Holy shit, that’s a talented team. And also thinking, I will never be scared of a Mike McCarthy coached team. To the point where they played the 49ers, they played the 49ers in the in the playoffs and I the whole time I didn’t let a sliver of doubt enter my mind because I just kept going back to him trying to talk up the movie, Austin Powers, to a bunch of 22 year olds that were born after it came out. And so this year, I don’t go into this having any expectations of the Lions, but I walked away from episode one Jason, thinking This team is worse than I could have imagined from a standpoint, from a coaching standpoint. From a coaching standpoint.


Jason Concepcion Okay, what, what, what, what, what made you feel that way?


Zach Harper Dan Campbell should not be talking for more than 30 seconds at a time. It loses steam. It loses inspiration. He starts bumbling. He’s like massaging his wrist. The big takeaway with people like he did burpees, I’m like, can he fucking game plan? I know he can work out. I know he could work out.


Zuri Irvin That is the game plan.


Zach Harper It’s a mountain of muscle. But can he game plan? No, he can’t. And then they’re just highlighting the coaching staff because it’s all former players, which they’re relatively entertaining. But I don’t think any of them are going to coach football well.


Zuri Irvin I watched this as well, I don’t know. I mean I’m inspired by Dan Campbell, I think he finds it after moments of like disillusionment. But the Aaron Glenn, Deuce Staley moment where they’re kind of sparring with each other on the sideline, I just think that Deuce is kind of a bully and Glenn’s like, keep moving away from him. And there’s like, I don’t know, there’s some fake valor in the show. But the one the one thing I want to point out is, like, the camerawork is really great. There’s a lot of moments.


Jason Concepcion Always.


Zach Harper Dude, beautiful.


Jason Concepcion Always. Always.


Zach Harper It is a beautifully put together show.


Zuri Irvin You can almost never see the cameras, too. It’s like very well thought out. There’s moments where the whole team is breaking down and they’re in a huddle and there’s a camera guy on one knee in between like two giant thighs. And it’s like, I just really appreciate the prediction of it.


Zach Harper There’s a Jamal Williams speech that I laughed so hard at because it’s not even like a pro athletes can’t get emotional, can’t cry. It’s just that his voice cracks in a way when he’s like, We’re not on record. We could do it this year. We couldn’t make it. I’m like, Are you trying to break out of, like, a military facility or like go eight in nine and like, what? What’s the goal here? Because I couldn’t figure out like he like he’s like, I care about y’all and all this stuff. I’m like, he’s like, we’re not our record. I’m like, you’re the Lions, buddy. You are. You’re always you’re record when you’re the Lions.


Jason Concepcion Absolutely. Let me ask you this. If you know, if you’re a coach, you know that that there’s going to be cameras following you for the season. Do you do you take it up a notch speech wise? You know, normally where you just be like a lot of F-bombs and, you know, we got to kick that team’s ass and yada, yada, yada. Well, are you then thinking, you know, what, I got to this is going to live on. I got it. I got to craft it a little bit more. I really got to bring it with this.


Zach Harper This is the problem, though. It’s like Dan Cable tried that. You can tell he tried that when he had a he had this thing where he’s like, I’ll fight. I don’t care if you have one ass cheek and three toes. I’m like, That would be a demonstrably easier opponent, someone with three toes


Jason Concepcion Wait, wait, wait. He’s going to fight somebody with one asscheek and  three. toes?


Zach Harper If he has to. If he has to.. That’s what he said.


Jason Concepcion Yeah. Yeah. Give me the guy with one ass and three who has absolutely no core strength or ability to explode through the.


Zach Harper  No balance.


Jason Concepcion Through there. There. Yeah, no balance. I’ll push him over in the chest and they go down because they want to ass.


Zach Harper A team of those guys are still three and a half point favorites over the line next week.


Jason Concepcion Yeah.


Zach Harper But also like I think this is all in the same speech like where he then like starts talking about trying to drown the other team.


Speaker 2 Oh, that was confusing.


Speaker 1 Yeah. And then he tried to like make a the light at the end of the tunnel is a, is a freight train. Right. It’s not like hope, it’s a freight train. Except he bumbles that where like he’s about to deliver he goes, You guys got a Metallica song? There’s a Metallica song that talks about this. It’s like, Just say the fucking thing. You don’t have to credit your sources. Like there’s no bibliography in the speech.


Jason Concepcion This is actually like 23 year old NFL players that are like, what? Like.


Ryan Wallerson I can see the gloss going over the eyes.


Zach Harper Yeah, it’s like that. But even Aiden Hutchinson’s like, Yeah, I know Metallica. I know the Metallica song. Like, that’s not happening.


Zuri Irvin Dan Campbell’s all energy. It doesn’t matter what he says. If the energy is right, then I’ll play for him.


Zach Harper Oh, he is just nothing but a tornado of creatine. It is spectacular.


Jason Concepcion When you’re as bad. I say this as a Knicks fan and I think, you know, Zach, you have you probably have a good handle on this as well. But I think when you’re as bad when you’re as bad as the Lions have been for as long as they have been.


Zach Harper Yeah.


Jason Concepcion That’s kind of a you know, at this point, Dan Campbell, whoever it’s about, who is making these overall decisions at a certain point, isn’t it? Because.


Zach Harper Right.


Jason Concepcion You’ve just brought in so many people, so many different coaching staffs at this point that you kind of have to look at who’s steering the entire ship, don’t you?


Zach Harper I mean. Yeah, I mean. Right. Like for the Knicks, it’s it’s James Dolan, right? It’s Mr. Entire like James for the for the Timberwolves it’s been Glen Taylor owns this team. Look how bumbling they are. Right. Like for the Kings it’s been well, it was it was Maloofs then there was Vivek back and that’s just that’s tough.


Jason Concepcion I mean.


Zach Harper That’s tough transition, right there. That’s a rough one. But yeah, like it always has to come back to above even the high level people. Right. It’s, it’s at the top with this stuff. It’s I mean, I’ve said this a bunch of times, but like the Cleveland Cavaliers don’t have a championship if LeBron’s born in New Mexico.


Jason Concepcion Oh, yeah. No.


Zach Harper Right. Like like Dan Gilbert kind of lucked into one there in a way. But he’s he’s been a bumbling owner in so many ways. Like yeah, like this is this is a situation with the Lions where it goes beyond Dan Campbell and Jared Goff and everyone has to, like, talk trash on the sidelines and give us good TV.


Jason Concepcion I say this to to as a as a way to bring up the EPL again, because over there there has been an influx of American ownership of English soccer teams, not only not just at the Premier League level, but below the Premier League level. Famously like Rob McElhenney just bought Wrexham FC.


Zach Harper I can’t wait for that documentary, right? I’m ready.


Jason Concepcion That’s going to be fun. And there’s a significant distrust in the English sporting culture of American ownership because the view, and I think fair view is that Americans don’t like to spend money. And when they spend money, it’s all money that they borrowed from somebody else.


Zach Harper Absolutely.


Jason Concepcion And with the Glazers, the American owners of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Manchester United, they the criticism of the Glazers is that, one, they borrowed money from Manchester United to buy Manchester United. I’m kind of simplifying it, but essentially they leveraged a debt deal to buy Manchester United. And so Manchester United has been paying down this significant debt ever since the Glazers have owned the team. And their ownership of the team has also coincided with, you know, a horrific and and crumbling run of form to the point that, you know, fucking Manchester United are currently on their worst start post Sir Alex Ferguson And they just got fucking crushed by four goals to to Brentford of all teams and it’s very significantly about the ownership. Like it’s a lot about the ownership. There needs to be a way to like like a dunk tank or something. Like at the end of the year. I get it. We can’t make you sit. We can’t force you to sell, you know, once you have purchased something. But there’s needs to be something in there. If a team is bad for like five or more seasons to where we can clearly lay it at the feet of ownership, we’re like, everybody gets to like shove a pie in the face of the owner, like at the end of the season or something.


Zach Harper What about like the Game of Thrones like Walk of Shame, right? Like just make them walk naked, like from the office down to the the stadium or whatever and like, you know, make it a healthy walk in and we’ll set it up to where, like, people can’t actually like really throw stuff at them because you go, you got to make it safe and buy. Yeah. That should be part of owning a team. Yeah.


Jason Concepcion Something like that.


Zuri Irvin Well, I mean wouldn’t be cool to if there is an owner that like if the team made more money than they expected to make, they just like paid fans back the excess like, you know, like the most those like passionate fans gave like a check in the mail, like, you know, comedy, you guys. Yeah.


Jason Concepcion I think that that is an amazing support team. I think that would have like a rebate. Yeah, yeah,.


Zach Harper Like a rebate.


Jason Concepcion Yeah a rebate.


Zach Harper We did too well rebate.


Zuri Irvin Right, right here. Right. Here’s $250.


Jason Concepcion Guys. I was going to get another 800 meter yacht. But instead, here is two vouchers for free drinks for the upcoming season.


Ryan Wallerson That man, that that is a man of the people.


Zach Harper They are giants. Like here’s a medium Pepsi for you.


Jason Concepcion Thank you so much for your support.


Zach Harper SOrry for watching Danny Dimes here’s medium diabetes for you.


Zuri Irvin Yeah. Yeah, it would be a discount on an expensive jersey anyways that you have to buy. Yeah.


Zach Harper It’s this rebate is only valid in the team shop. Yeah.


Jason Concepcion Well, I’m going to be keeping, I’m going to be keeping track of this. Listen, if you decide that you want to to support the EPL team.


Ryan Wallerson Yeah.


Jason Concepcion I’m here to bounce ideas off of. I’m sure.


Zach Harper Yeah, I don’t. I don’t know how to pick. I think that’s the thing. I don’t know how to get invested. So I’m like, I’ll watch the, what is it, All For One? All in?


Jason Concepcion All or Nothing.


Zach Harper All or Nothing. Yeah. All for One is a is a Bryan Adams banger, right? That’s what that is.


Jason Concepcion Yeah.


Zach Harper All for Nothing. I’m, I’m in like I’m going to watch that and then I don’t. Yeah, I mean, I need help like picking a team.


Ryan Wallerson You know, I would say just watch the league generally. Just watch good football, see if anyone sticks out. It’s. It’s almost like adopting a dog, right? Like you just go in and you see if somebody, like, connects with you.


Zach Harper I feel bad for this one, I’ll take it.


Jason Concepcion But I would also say, like, I would also say, like, don’t torture yourself. Like don’t be like, oh, I hear South Hampton has a long history of, you know, like. Yeah, like pick a pick a team that’s actually in the mix, too.


Zach Harper So, Man U would not be the right choice right now?


Ryan Wallerson Don’t


Zach Harper Okay.


Ryan Wallerson Don’t. Don’t pick.


Jason Concepcion Oh, for various reasons. Don’t pick them. Right. Obviously, again, the most winningest team in history. But it’s going to be shaky for a little while with them for years. But you know, like Liverpool, Tottenham, even Arsenal who are in the come up right now. Chelsea.


Zach Harper My FIFA guys, Nottingham.


Jason Concepcion Yeah. Yeah. Nottingham.


Zach Harper It’s strictly because of Robin Hood.


Jason Concepcion They’re fun.


Zach Harper I think that team strictly because of Robin Hood. And I like the logo.


Ryan Wallerson You know what? I think you might have found your team, Zach.


Jason Concepcion  Yeah.


Zach Harper I was a Timberwolves fan when I was a child, because I thought wolves were cool. It’s not a lot of logic to this.


Jason Concepcion I mean. Listen, I’m an Arsenal fan because they have a they have a gun on the fucking badge. They have a cannon on the badge. And it sounded,  the Arsenal sounded cool. And then at the time, they had the best player in the world, who I thought was the best player in the World, Thierry Henry, at the time. So it was like an easy bandwagon pick for me and I’ve stuck with it. So don’t be don’t feel bad about going bandwagon but also like listen Nottingham Forest great history of of a of a club.


Zach Harper And Robin Hood.


Ryan Wallerson And in the top league trying to do some damage to the the teams of champions.


Zach Harper Shake shake some shit up. Yeah. All right, let’s go. Let’s go. Forest, is that what you. I don’t know what you say.


Jason Concepcion Something like that. And that’s the other thing. Like there’s the songs.


Ryan Wallerson YouTube them.


Jason Concepcion You’ll sing them.


Ryan Wallerson YouTube them. YouTube, the Nottingham Forest songs, and you will find them.


Zach Harper I’m going to pick it strictly on the songs, actually. I don’t know why. I don’t know why they did anything. I was like, I just kind of pick the songs I like the best.


Jason Concepcion All right. Up next, Christian WInfield.


Jason Concepcion <A.D.>.


Jason Concepcion Picture this. You’re Joe Tsai. You’re sitting in your office, right? You’re. You’ve got Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, the BBC and C-SPAN on the massive bank of televisions that make up the the one wall of your absolutely palatial office. And on all those screens, it is the growing tensions around the island of Taiwan. After Nancy Pelosi’s visit. You’ve got Chinese warships surrounding the island, launching missiles over it that were landing near Japan. Warships are practicing doing landings on the beaches there to seize the island back. And as you’re watching this and your sweat is breaking out on your brow because of course, you’re tightly connected, business wise, culturally, etc., to China. And this is you know, you’ve got family members and loved ones that you’re worried about. Could war possibly break out? And as you’re doing this, your phone rings, you answer it. It’s your assistant. Your assistant says Kevin Durant is here, wants to talk about the direction of the team, and then you have to let Kevin Durant in. And and while war is looming and threatening, you now have to talk with Kevin Durant about like I don’t like Steve Nash. Can we get rid of this guy to help us figure out all of that? Is The New York Daily News is Christian Winfield is going to take us to Joe Tsai’s office. Christian, how are you?


Christian WInfield I’m not going to take you into Joe Tsai’s office. That conversation happened in London, right? I believe I believe Kevin and James Arnett were out there supporting Travis Scott during that concert and Joe Tsai linked up with them. They had that conversation out there. But yeah, I mean, two years ago you had the best team in basketball, right? And now you’re talking about you’ve got a team with Ben Simmons and maybe no Kyrie. And do we? We don’t know what’s going on. The Nets are a mess, man.


Jason Concepcion So where where do we stand right now? Where where are things right now?


Christian WInfield Things are things have kind of been the same way for about a month now, right. Where you don’t know if Kevin is going to be here and if he is going to be here, it’s going to be uncomfortable as hell. You have this weird situation with Kyrie who says he wants to be here long term, but maybe the GM does. Doesn’t that whole situation played out publicly, which is weird. And then you have a team right now that kind of makes sense, but also kind of doesn’t because you have Nick Claxton on a two year deal, but you haven’t you don’t really have that enforcer of a center yet. And you kind of looking around this roster. But at the same time, it’s like, well, if Kevin Durant decides to come back, you’ve still got a Nets team that could win a championship this year, right? So on one end, nothing has changed. But with this ultimatum, kind of like everything has changed. So it’s it’s crazy right now in Brooklyn, man. It’s it’s almost like what I was thinking if it feels like covering the Knicks. But in Brooklyn, yeah, it’s ridiculous.


Zach Harper Christian, the vibes it gave me and a little bit of like, I don’t know what the Nets plan is with this situation. Like, I know it’s like, Hey, why don’t you just play this year out? Let’s see what let’s see what happens. Right? And then or part of it could be the second we get a deal where like 30 draft picks are suddenly allowed to be traded. Like we’ll take that. Right. But it feels I got the same vibes as like when Jimmy Butler wanted out in Minnesota in the sense of Tom Thibodeau just kept thinking, we’ll get him to camp, he loves basketball, he’ll be back in the camaraderie and be back with the guys and everything will kind of fix itself. And obviously the opposite happened. But with the Nets and KD, I do wonder if like not saying other guys and other stars around the league don’t love the game, but like KD is legitimately obsessed with playing basketball, right? In a way. Like even for an NBA superstar like it is above and beyond. I do wonder if there is a strategy and like, he’s got to get back on the court. He’s not going to want to half ass it because he’s who he is. And maybe that at least gives us some breathing room.


Christian WInfield You know, that’s an interesting train of thought. I’ve been told by sources that have been talking to me this all the time that, you know, there’s a growing chance that Kevin holds out a training camp. Right. And then if he holds out of training camp, what happens? That said, you know, I still think it’s in both the nets and in Kevin Durant’s best interest to find a way to make this thing work. You know, I was just having a conversation the other day. Any team that trades for Kevin Durant, I think maybe outside of the Celtics are no longer contenders because of what they’ll have to give up to get him, right. If they sell to even the Celtics, if you had to give up Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart, you’re hoping that Malcolm Brogdon is going to give you a whole healthy season because if not, you’re probably going to lose to the Bucks at some point, right? Every other team, whatever they’re giving up, maybe not the Pelicans, right. If the Pelicans gave up Brandon Ingram in some picks and maybe another player, you’re in the clear, but that’s only if Zion is healthy. Everybody else, you’re giving up what it’s going to take to win a championship. You look in Brooklyn, if you’ve got a healthy Ben Simmons, if you got Kyrie motivated on a one year deal contract. The year has to earn that next deal. And you’ve got Kevin Durant, who, as we know, loves basketball, wants to win. And you still have that mid-level exception. You might arguably be championship favorites in the East. In all the basketball, right. So I think it makes sense for them to come back. But at the same time, you go to your team owner and say, hey, you got to fire the GM, you got to fire Steve Nash.


Zach Harper It’s a tough one. That’s a tough hurdle to get over. Yeah.


Jason Concepcion I don’t know how that works.


Christian WInfield I don’t know if Kevin’s the type of guy who’s going to come in, start throwing basketballs that people in training camp starts, if he does report it. Because we heard about all the reports that Jimmy Butler, what happened in Minnesota. But it’s just a weird situation and it’s just like, how do you get by this? I mean, there’s one train of thought where it’s like, wow, these are all grown men. They’ll be able to get over like, no, these are guys with egos. We see, we know how this can work. And man, it’s a mess. It is a mess.


Jason Concepcion The reason for my Joe Tsai preamble was because it seems to me like this is significantly coming down to kind of a battle of the wills between two erstwhile stars of the Nets, Kyrie Irving and K.D.. And whatever Joe Tsai wants to do. Is he going to back Marks and Nash? And how much? And is he going to hold Kyrie and KD’s feet to the fire? I think we saw with the Kyrie vaccination kind of like ongoing conversation that there came a point where Joe Tsai was just like, I don’t give a shit, like either do this or don’t. And then he kind of backed down and that kind of blew back on him in a embarrassing fashion. And then it seemed like he was going to back his team and he’s like, Fine, you guys want to go, you can go. And then when nothing really emerged market wise, he was also happy to just sit back and let that happen. Is there any kind of indication about, you know, what level of annoyance Joe is willing to put up with in order to reassemble this team? Or is he perfectly happy to be like, if we want to blow this thing up, we can do that, too?


Christian WInfield You know, here’s one thing on the Nets official website, Joe Tsai is listed as governor and Sean Marks is listed as alternate governor. Right. As well as GM. So that kind of shows you just how far Joe is going to go to back his guy, in my opinion. And, you know, there’s just been some talk that Joe and Sean gave Kevin the guy he wanted in Steve Nash. From everything that I’ve been told, it was the other way around. Steve is Sean Marks, his guy. Kevin signed off on it. Kyrie signed off on it. And now you’ve got this guy who has no head coaching experience trying to lead a championship team, which we all knew wasn’t going to work except everybody except Sean Marx apparently thought it was thought it was a terrible idea. And here we are now. So, I mean, at a certain point, what level of annoyance are you going to put up with? I mean, you had to deal with a guy like Kyrie who decided he didn’t want to play for two weeks because the insurrection at the Capitol happened. I think at a certain point they’ve had they’ve had enough of it. But at the same time, this is what comes like you have to give to get, in a way. And when you when you’re, I consider it blessed. Right. I remember covering the Nets when they were winning 20 games, 28 games. And then one day, one tweet from from KD and Kyrie says, Brooklyn, and now you’re knocking on the door of a championship every year. Are you willing to put up with a little bit of annoyance, if you want to use that word, that lets you knock on that door every, if you knock on the championship door every year, eventually that door is going to open. Right. And I think at a certain point, it is tough, though, because this is before that ultimatum was issued, right? This whole time I was saying, hey, at a minimum, you’re knocking on the door of a championship every year. At maximum, you’re a dynasty. Just sign the checks. Let them let them do what they do and be grateful, because a couple of years ago you weren’t even selling out. I remember when they’re selling out stadiums now and selling out games at Barclays. I remember when there were no fans in that building at all. And the Nets fans would. So, you know, they were fans. No, they weren’t. It was empty. And now you have a product that people are.


Jason Concepcion Just calling Nets fans flat out liars to the head.


Christian WInfield I have to. I had to.


Zach Harper I went to a I went to a Nets magic game in like, I don’t know, 2012 or 2013 or something like that. And there were more Magic fans there. This is post Dwight, by the way. Like, there were more Magic fans, the Nets fan. I just remember thinking, what an amazingly weird arena experience because it is, it’s a dope fucking arena. Like it’s really cool. But yeah, it was like it was a weird experience.


Christian WInfield And now you’re here where you document every day. Every time you wake up in the morning. They’re talking about the Nets on ESPN. Unless it’s the other day where they weren’t talking about the Nets at all for whatever reason.


Zach Harper Oh, I think we know the reason.


Christian WInfield We are talking about the Nets every day on every network. And if I was having this conversation with somebody, even if Kevin Durant sits out, the story is still about the Nets. If you trade Kevin Durant for pennies on the dollar, you’re losing fans, you’re losing headlines, you’re losing relevance. So that’s what the stalemate is as well.


Jason Concepcion You’re very well-sourced around the Nets and in New York sports in general. What are the people, obviously not asking you to blow your sources, but if you want to that be great. But like, what is the the feeling of like, is it bemusement or are they just like, can you believe this stuff we’re dealing with? Like, what are the people who are in that world feeling about the circus that is swirling around this team right now.


Christian WInfield I told you. You’re my number one source. You can you can speak for yourself. You know.


Zach Harper I do love the idea of Jason just going, you know what? I know this stuff. I got it.


Jason Concepcion Yeah, yeah, yeah


Zach Harper Like, I’ve got the sources.


Christian WInfield You know, part of it is, you know, I’ve got people that have told me that Kevin Durant is so checked out from this situation that there’s no way he just comes back on bygones. Be bygones. Let’s play basketball. Right. And part of me doesn’t want to believe that because the end of the day, I still feel like his best chance to win at a high level is going to be in Brooklyn because of what other teams are going to have to give up to get him. But from the Nets side of things, you know, some of this, some people who believe that the Nets still want this to work, right. There is they believe that Joe Tsai is going to stand his ground and hope that one day Kevin Durant is going to come around and play. And if not, he’s not going to trade him for a lesser package. And that’s just tough because now you’ve got this situation where you’re going to drag this thing out and you’re going to waste a season in a way. Right. And it’s just a terrible situation to be in. But at the same time, I thought this is what happens when you had Sean Marks come out a week after Kyrie said, I want to co-manage the franchise with Sean and Joe. I will never forget that quote. And a week later, Sean Marks basically says, Hey, Kyrie, no, you didn’t play enough games. We don’t buy that.


Zach Harper You know, Kyrie is a blessing. I mean, he just oh, my God, remember what he said? I don’t think we have a coach like I could be the coach. KD can be the coach. You know, Jacques Vaughn could be the coach. That’s a good spot on. Yeah.


Jason Concepcion And to be fair to him, he wasn’t even saying like, I want to co-manage. He was saying, I love that we co-manage this. He was basically saying it as a statement of fact that he’s enjoyed.


Zach Harper I love my relationship with Rihanna. Like, it’s amazing. It’s just what I do. You know, we’re so in love, you know?


Christian WInfield Oh, my goodness. That is hilarious. But, you know, after that, things kind of change because that at a certain point, the messaging from the Nets side that got leaked to ESPN was, you know, we’re willing to lose KD and Kyrie over this. And at that point, when you’re publicly posturing like that, when you’re blessed enough to have these two stars and I say blessed because you know, how often in NBA history do you have two guys of this caliber choosing a team that I remember winning 28 games just a couple of years ago, and now they’re coming out completely reinventing this franchise. My standpoint is you do whatever it takes to keep them happy, to keep them there, because at a certain point, they’re going to get you to the NBA finals. Remember, just a couple years ago, they were about to go there with Kyrie hurt, with James Harden on one leg. I watched Kevin Durant last year, the Nets had maybe eight players and health and safety protocols. He’s on the floor with four rookies, beat Joel Embiid, Tobias Harris, 76ers. At that point I’m like, Oh, this man is special. And now you’re talking about publicly all we’re willing to lose both of them just because like, nah, it’s crazy man.


Zach Harper Christian that that’s where, you know, we have whenever an athlete speaks out against anything, it’s just, you know, it’s the shut up and dribble response. I do wonder with Joe Tsai tweeting, is there a point where we just go, hey, buddy, shut up in business right now, like just do the Tillman Furtina and just like just shut up and be like, don’t like maybe you shouldn’t be tweeting. So in your opinion, like has this public stance from Joe Tsai helped matters, get resolved, help them take a strong stance. I look at it kind of just like it’s great content. I’ll take it. But I don’t think like he should be doing that.


Christian WInfield No, I don’t think that’s part of the issue with an on the Nets side as they didn’t enjoy how some of these negotiations played out in the media. Sure. I’m sorry. People leaked to me what was happening. Like I just happened to get some of that info and here we are. But then for for the ownership to then publicly respond, I don’t think I’ve ever seen that.


Jason Concepcion Yeah.


Christian WInfield Maybe Mark Cuban did it once. I don’t know. I would. I would bet that he’d be the guy that did it out of all of them.


Zach Harper Dan Gilbert’s  letter.


Jason Concepcion Yeah, the letter.


Zach Harper Yeah.


Christian WInfield That might be it. But to then do that publicly, I mean, I don’t know. I just going to say how much of a mess it is right now. Every week that you get closer to training camp is a week where you risk some type of nuclear bomb going off and now it’s just unsalvageable. So we’ll see what happens, man. Well, how many weeks? Five weeks. And so training camp, six weeks?


Jason Concepcion If you had to guess which one, because obviously I think if one goes, they both go and one of them has to be the kind of first to go. There have been, you know,.


Christian WInfield Oh, no, the first go is what are you talking about, Sean and Steve, if one of them goes?


Jason Concepcion Let’s do both sides of it. So Sean or Steve, Kyrie KD, what happens first? Somebody actually puts the amount of picks and assets on the table to get Kyrie or KD, which one of those things is more likely to happen and then which is more likely? Who’s more likely to survive? Or Steve Nash or Sean Marks?


Christian WInfield That’s funny. I think we know the answer to the second one already. So the first one.


Jason Concepcion The second one was very easy, very simple.  I think I could coach the team if you give me the right assistance.


Christian WInfield Yeah.


Zach Harper Not the alternate governor?


Christian WInfield Right? Yeah.


Zach Harper Like, if that’s how it’s listed on the website.


Christian WInfield I don’t think there’s any universe where Kyrie gets traded before KD. I don’t think that ever happens. Potentially, if the Nets can keep Kyrie Irving a net for the rest of his career. I think that’s still on the table. As long as he proves that he’ll be willing to play and show up to work and do it. Listen, I understand why the Nets do what they did with Kyrie to a certain extent. Right? Like the man was going crazy in terms of just not playing just because he didn’t feel like it. You know, and I’ve said this before, the vaccination portion of it. I kind of understand your body, your choice. I get making that call. But everything before that, just missing games, the, the, the just blatant disregard for COVID protocols. We saw him basically in a club with no mask right around a bunch of people that I think that did more damage to him than not getting vaccinated. The Kevin Durant stuff, I think a team would have to put. So I think that would be the first domino to fall. Right. You you would see Kevin Durant get traded first and then the Nets. Why? Okay, well, do we even want to keep Kyrie here? Are we rebuilding? Can we get two draft picks and extra young players for him? Then that would happen. Also, it’ll be KD gets traded first and Kyrie on the show. Mark Steve Nash So I think if everybody sat down without Steve Nash and KD says, Hey, I’ll stay, but we need a new head coach, you know, I trust Sean. I think Steve would be going fast. You know, at this point it’s not really a secret anymore. He’s been out coached by a lot of his peers. It’s just my opinion. I don’t think he was the right guy for the job from the jump, but I think you should have gotten somebody with some type of NBA championship pedigree. Let it be coaching or let it be whatever it is. He never even  won a championship as a player, right? And this is the guys you got to coach a team that you had set clear expectations for them.


Jason Concepcion Damn.


Christian WInfield I’m sorry. I didn’t mean it. I mean, it’s like I mean, I did whatever.


Christian WInfield This very hard so so it’s a it’s unfortunate but yeah. Sean Marks is an excellent general manager.


Jason Concepcion I agree with that.


Zach Harper He’s really good.


Christian WInfield Up until the point where he started having to make decisions for these guys, Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving, everything else he did was basically bulletproof. And then the missteps started coming, which coincided with the vaccine, and COVID 19 never happened. I think the Nets have a championship right now.


Jason Concepcion And that’s really the important thing. If COVID didn’t happen is that the Nets would have.


Zach Harper That’s what Kyrie keep saying. Except he doesn’t use the IF he just says COVID happened.


Jason Concepcion Let me, is there, is there and you mentioned Marx’s ability as a GM and I completely agree with you, is there any ruing like what was before they made the moves for Kyrie and KD did? Is there any amount of wistfulness for the team?


Zach Harper Like a pre- star culture almost like.


Christian WInfield I mean pre-star culture doesn’t assure pre star results. No, you got to take the stars and everything they come with.


Zach Harper Oh, hold on, Christian what we’re not going to do here is erase the magical run that I had watching Spencer Dinwiddie. I was all in on Spencer. I still am But, you know.


Christian WInfield Spencer Spencer is a great guy. That’s that’s he’s go but at the same time, the ceiling on that team was what getting swept by the Toronto Raptors and getting swept by the Philadelphia 76ers out of the first round. I mean, at the end of the day that team is only going to get you but so far. If the question is if they could go back in time, make a different decision, would they make the other decision? Answer’s no. Right. We’re talking about the Nets right now on this podcast. Why? Because they have Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving, not because they got Spencer Dinwiddie, Joe Harris, Caris LeVert.


Jason Concepcion When they had Wilson Chandler. I could not stop talking about them.


Christian WInfield Listen. And that’s a good dude right there. Wilson Chandler is a real good dude.


Zach Harper Well, I mean, technically, because Jason just kept saying Wilson Chandler is still fucking playing? This is crazy.


Christian WInfield Yeah. He was definitely past his prime while he was with the Nets, unfortunately. But I’ll. Yeah, no, I think that’s what they want. And this is one of those classic cases of the the phrase that nobody seems to understand probably, which is you want to have your cake and eat it too, right? Like when the nets want to have their stars, but they also want to have this culture where they can control everything. And that’s not how they want to have the Spurs type culture with this roster that looks like, you know, Showtime, Lakers or Miami Heat. And it just doesn’t work that way, right? You can’t. Or you have to be Pat Riley. They have not Pat Riley. Right. That’s not how it works. So, yeah.


Zach Harper Maybe maybe it depends on what Ben Simmons ends up actually being. And I’ve already had to fight. Yeah, I had one person trying to tell me like, Hey, have you seen the Ben Simmons like summer stuff? I said, No, I like I’m not. I’m not watching that stuff anymore. Like, I got to see real basketball out of him, right? Maybe. And so maybe this depends on what Ben Simmons ends up being for the Nets. But do you think there’s any chance they regret this Harden trade at this point?


Christian WInfield Oh, man, that’s a great question, because I don’t because then what’s the worst case scenario if you don’t trade if you don’t trade James Harden. Right. Then you’re dealing with that right now.


Zach Harper I mean. To even acquire him, I mean, to quite like to go out and acquire him because like you give up Jared Allen, who’s obviously very good. You give up Caris like like there was some real talent that went out the door there.


Christian WInfield 100%. But at the same time, you had James Harden, Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving on the same team. You do that in my opinion, I think I think Sean Marks would have done the same thing. You do that 11 times out of ten. Every single time you can put those three guys on the floor together. Now, would they have maybe not traded James Harden midseason and just said, hey, deal with the play and figure it out? You take you take a healthy James Harden, Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and put them against those Boston Celtics. I don’t know. I think you’ve got a shot. Right. So it’s tough. I think maybe. And then this also takes you back to some decisions that, like I said, you know, COVID messed everything up in the decision making from there. What if you don’t banish Kyrie Irving at the beginning of the season? What if you say, hey, you can practice with us and you can play road games? Just can’t play home games until we get the situation resolved. Kyrie didn’t play 16 road games until the Nets said, Hey, you can play. If he plays those 16, maybe him and James Harden find some type of rapport, some type of chemistry on the floor. And maybe now Marks doesn’t come around and he’s he wants to put a bullet in Kyrie or a shot in them. Right. He wanted to get up out of there. So it’s tough. And that’s why I say, you know, some of those many decisions that Sean Marks made and then the one blemish on his record, obviously, is hiring Steve Nash. That that was that was the big one. But other than that, he’s been amazing. But the other point, from everything that I’ve heard about Ben Simmons this summer, I heard that his back has been holding up pretty well and that he also looks really, really good on the floor. The issue is now, from what I’ve been told, the Nets want to play him at center and they want to play him a bunch of different places on the floor.


Jason Concepcion Yeah. Let’s fucking go.


Christian WInfield If you play him at center and he’s guarding you, I’m saying guys that want to post him up and I just don’t know how that works with a guy who’s just got back surgery. Right, like that. You don’t want him to guard 300 pound men.


Zach Harper Right, Christian, like, one, we we’ve all seen the clip of Giannis calling him a fucking baby because he couldn’t handle Giannis at the post, which no stress there nobody can handle Giannis.


Jason Concepcion Nobody. Can do that. Yeah that right. But don’t worry about it.


Zach Harper But still but still he doesn’t usually dunk on someone and they call him a fucking baby over and over into a camera. But also, I don’t know if you get excited hearing, hey, this 26 year old, his back is holding up like that’s a that’s a confusing sentiment to get excited about. Like that’s something where I’m just like, I don’t know about that. That’s actually not a good that’s not a good thing to hear.


Christian WInfield I mean, listen, any good news about Ben Simmons is better. Listen,  I remember covering the Nets when every single day was a new Ben Simmons update and none of it was good. It was all just terrible. And then it was okay. He got an epidural. Epidural happened weeks ago. Why don’t you guys tell us when it happened? It was crazy. And then and then all he had, he had back spasms. The back spasms happened a little while ago, he had an MRI. Man, covering the Nets was a headache. I say all that to say a healthy Ben Simmons is a great the any good news about Ben similarly.


Zach Harper He’s a really good player


Jason Concepcion Yeah yeah yeah.


Christian WInfield And I think that’s understated people will look at that Atlanta series the fact they didn’t want to shoot that man will lock up your favorite player. That man will dunk on your favorite player. That man will get out in transition and create open shots for your favorite shooter. I think he’s an amazing fit for these guys as well as Kevin Durant’s on the team.


Zach Harper Just real quick, we like I’m not asking anyone to report anything, but we all agree he left the group chat story just because it’s fun, right?


Jason Concepcion Yeah yeah yeah.


Zach Harper Like, I don’t need facts on this. I just want to. I just want us all to agree. It’s a funny story. Just like Kawhi Leonard, Apple time. We’re all agreeing that it happened.


Christian WInfield As funny. I wish I could confirm that that happened, but the New York Daily News is unable to confirm. Rick Duke is reporting.


Zach Harper Jason’s that not a no.


Jason Concepcion Not a no.


Christian WInfield I am unable to confirm that report. So I will leave it at that.


Jason Concepcion He is Christian Winfield of the New York Daily News. Christian, thank you so much for joining us.


Christian WInfield Preciate you guys for having me, anytime.


Jason Concepcion You know what that sound means? That means it’s time for buzzer beaters. When we talk about the stories and stuff that we didn’t have time to cover in the show. Zach, what is your Buzzer Beater about this week?


Zach Harper As much as I do want to discuss, I just uneasiness I have with Russians due to the show For All Mankind and no other reason. I got to talk about the rehearsal.


Jason Concepcion Oh, my god.


Zach Harper It’s a show I’m obsessed with. I have gone driving around the valley to find points from the rehearsal.


Jason Concepcion No, you haven’t.


Zach Harper Here’s the thing, Jason. The Fielder method of acting school is located or was located, I should say, two blocks from the last apartment I lived in. I moved here in October and this place is two blocks away. I used to go over by that area all the time.


Jason Concepcion Holy Shit.


Zach Harper And so I went over. I found where it was. I went over there. It is now a jujitsu studio.


Jason Concepcion Oh, cool.


Zach Harper Which makes me wonder, has this been replaced or is this part of the rehearsal?


Jason Concepcion Right.


Zach Harper Where Nathan is becoming a jujitsu master. I don’t know. I drove by a couple of times this past weekend, the Acai Bowl place that Nathan starts working at in Sherman Oaks because it’s near my new place. Like, I cannot stop thinking about this show. And my parents live in Salem, Oregon, which is not that far from where a lot of the stuff is happening in the Rehearsal season. When I go to visit them, you’re damn right I’m a go drive by all the stuff and try to find Nate’s Lizard Lounge. Yes.


Jason Concepcion The thing that blows me away about the Rehearsal is that it appears that they spend. Three Game of Thrones episodes worth of budget on every single like they’re building entire homes like fully furnished, entire electrified homes with cameras. They’re built there like building entire bars in warehouses and then shipping the bars to across the country.


Zach Harper Across the country.


Jason Concepcion Like, how could this be happening?


Zach Harper As across the country as it can get.


Jason Concepcion Folks, it’s unreal. For my Buzzer Beater, I’m going to do the one that you mentioned. I’m going to say For All Mankind, folks, For All Mankind. Here’s what it is. For All Mankind is an alternate history show about the origins of a unified human space force like, say, Starfleet in Star Trek. The idea being, you know, Star Trek, you know about these like incredible spaceships staffed by various human people from all nationalities and including various members of alien races. What would it take? What would the conditions need to be like here on Earth for that kind of force to actually happen? And we’re in season three now. Season three finale just aired and its crazy shit folks, like it’s a banger. And not only is it great and wonderful sci fi adventure action, but it’s like corny in a way that I feel like I really need right now. Like it’s corny.


Zach Harper Yes.


Jason Concepcion Like there’ll be shit where it’s like, you know, the Russians and the Americans are completely at odds. Astronauts have accidentally been killed. And you just don’t think that there’s any way that this Russian cosmonaut’s going to be able to work with this American who also gay, which is playing out against the backdrop of the partizan politics of the 1990s. But then they’ll just be like this big speech where it’s like, you know what? I have always seen you as a person. I have always seen you as a person. And then you just the soaring music. And that happens numerous times. And while. Yes, I know that sounds corny. But man  Do I need that shit right now? Yeah, I just need people looking in each other’s eyes and being like, You know what? Let’s just cooperate. Let’s just figure it out. Let’s figure out how we can just work together. Even though everything around us says that we can’t work together. What if we just figure it out? And that’s really hitting home for me. For all mankind. Watch it now on Apple TV plus. That’s it for us. Follow it. Subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don’t forget to subscribe to my YouTube channel for our X-ray Vision show, where you get lots of fun stuff from the X-ray Vision podcast, which covers nerd culture, pop culture every week. Check it out. Goodbye. Takeline is a Crooked Media production. The show is produced by Ryan Wallerson and Zuri Irvin. Our executive producers are myself and Sandy Girard. Engineering, editing and Sound Design by the Great Sarah Dubalaska and the folks at Chapter Four. And our theme music is produced by Brian Vasquez. Mia Kellman is on the Zoom for vibes, and the vibes are fantastic all the time.