UPDATE: 10/04/25: President Trump has planned to pause extended tariffs on most countries for 90 days, while pushing ahead on plans to implement a 104% tariff on Chinese goods. A flat 10% tariff remains in place.

Trump’s tariffs continue to cause chaos in the stock markets and the threat of a recession looms. As Rachel Reeves put it in her Spring Statement – the world is changing before our eyes – but is it enough to see her back down on her precious fiscal rules? Co-host Zoë Grünewald joins Nish to make sense of it all.

Can ‘the most dangerous man in Britain’ shed light on this moment of global chaos? Author and education campaigner Melissa Benn, daughter of the late great politician Tony Benn, reflects on her father’s relevance today and the future of the left.

Plus, Melissa takes a look at what’s in Labour’s new education bill. Kemi Badenoch has labelled it “an act of vandalism” – but are the reforms as revolutionary as critics claim?

And a couple of monumental WTF’s for you this week – Israel has barred two Labour MPs, just as human rights lawyers deliver a landmark report to the Met Police’s War Crimes Team, making accusations of war crimes against 10 Britons, who served in the Israeli military in Gaza. It’s chilling stuff.

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The Most Dangerous Man in Britain?: The Political Writing by Tony Benn

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TRANSCRIPT

Nish Kumar Welcome to Pod Save the UK, I’m Nish Kumar.

Zoë Grünewald And I’m Zoe Grunewald. Are you feeling liberated, Nish?

Nish Kumar I’ve never felt more liberated in my entire life, Zoe. Last week, I was at the Crooked office recording this show and I watched live as Donald Trump liberated everybody from the prison of common sense and reasonable economic policy. Yeah, it was an extraordinary, extraordinary thing to bear witness to, whilst some of our friends in the Crooking Media Office. Shook their heads at a speed that suggested they might all be about to get whiplashed.

Zoë Grünewald Of course, on the show today, we’re discussing the impact of Trump’s wild tariffs and what it means for the UK.

Nish Kumar And we’ll be joined by the author and political commentator, Melissa Ben, the daughter of the late, great Tony Ben, to discuss what the government could learn from a socialist buyer brand father, plus what does she think about Labour’s plans for education?

Zoë Grünewald But first, to Trump.

Clip If you look at Switzerland, 61% to 31%. Indonesia, Malaysia, Cambodia, oh, look at Cambodia, 97%. We’re gonna bring it down to 49. They made a fortune with the United States of America. United Kingdom, 10%, and we’ll go 10%. So we’ll do the same thing.

Nish Kumar Yes, that was Donald Trump reading from a board in a manner that suggests he has never heard of several of the countries that he was reading the names out of with all of the production values and let’s face it, the host’s questionable sexual history of a 1970s British television game show host. As we record, and it really is important that we keep inserting that caveat, as we The EU is on 20 percent. Certain imports like vehicles are levied at 25 percent. China is levied with a 34 percent rate, which is additional to the existing 20 percent duties on all Chinese imports to the United States. Trump has then threatened an additional 50 percent tariff on China. What do you make of all of this? This kind of trade war, the end of globalization, whatever phrase we’re putting on it.

Zoë Grünewald There’s a lot of people reacting with surprise, which I understand because logically, this is an insane thing to do, right? It makes no logical sense for Trump to implement tariffs. It’s going to mean higher costs passed onto consumers in the US, which is something that he basically based his whole presidential campaign around, reducing costs. He’s also given several conflicting reasons for this. So on the one hand, it’s to encourage American manufacturers to create more and be more self-sufficient and it’s kind of protectionist. The other hand is to get the US a better bargaining position on the world stage so they can have better trade. The two positions don’t align. As you said, as we’re recording, those are currently the rates in place, but this could all move depending on who bends the knee to Trump, what reasons he’s actually implementing these tariffs. If this is genuinely an attempt at American protectionism, he may well stay firm. But if it is actually a bargaining tactic, or just because he wants to blow everything up and have people. Basically come groveling to him, then we might see some movement in the next few days. But what is very, very clear is that the world is now incredibly dependent on a man who just can’t be trusted to do anything in the ways that we expect it. One of the tariffs he put on, we’ve got the same rate tariff as an island that is basically entirely populated by penguins. Trying to make any sense of this, Nish, is hopeless, so all we can really do is just say, you know, we told you so.

Nish Kumar Penguin Island has made a lot of news over here because it’s in this part of the world. Look, Trump has said repeatedly that he will not back down on these tariffs and keeps using the phrase, sometimes you have to take your medicine, which famously was not his attitude during the coronavirus pandemic where he suggested we all drink bleach. Trump has claimed that Keir Starmer is very happy about the tariffs. Now, based on what Keir starmer has been saying, I’m not sure how happy he is. Here’s the Prime This is Speaking on Monday.

Clip When it comes to the U.S., I will only strike a deal if it’s in our national interest. If it’s the right thing to do for our security. If it protects the pounds in the pocket that working people across the country work so hard to earn for their family. That is my priority. That is always my priority, strength abroad, security and renewal at home. The fuck does that mean?

Zoë Grünewald So that was Keir Starmer speaking at the Jaguar Land Rover factory on Monday where he announced a relaxation of rules for electric car sales as his response to Trump’s tariffs. Well, it’s not exactly thrilling stuff and is he even doing enough? He said multiple times that nobody wins from a trade war and speaks about working with key partners to accelerate trade deals across the world. Also says the government wants to turbocharge the support it’s giving to the British economy and he’s talked about bringing the industrial strategy forward. But we know that the UK stock market, like the rest of the stock market has seen a rollercoaster in reaction to the tariffs, and I know poor corporations, but this will indirectly affect so many of us. Our pensions, our investment funds are all likely to be hit.

Nish Kumar First of all, I think, and I include myself in this, there is a strong rump of our listenership that has responded to the phrase pension fund by laughing themselves hysterically. Stock market shares does seriously impact the pension funds, which obviously seriously impacts the only bit of the British electorate that any of the major parties seems to care about, which is retired people or people who are about to retire. Just purely assessing the political situation that Keir Starmer is facing at the moment. Is there an argument that it would be good politics for him with the electorate to actually talk a bit tougher with Trump? Or do you think, given that we’ve ended up with 10%, that actually we have to consider this whole thing to be a real strategic coup for Keir starmer, and actually that will eventually translate into a polling bump for him?

Zoë Grünewald I think there are sort of good and bad things that Labour can take out of this. The good thing is that they can do what Rishi Sunak and Boris Johnson did with economic decline by basically pointing to COVID and the war in Ukraine and saying, it’s not our fault if prices rise. I think also there’s a possible bump they might get from reform. You know, Nigel Farage is inextricably tied to Donald Trump for a lot of people. Nigel has been very quiet recently.

Nish Kumar I knew there was something I was feeling good about. I couldn’t put my finger on it, but I knew that there was something I’m feeling good

Zoë Grünewald The tough stuff is that people don’t like Donald Trump and people don t like to see their British Prime Minister sort of kissing the ring when it comes to any leader, really, but especially the bully that Donald Trump is now being perceived as. The problem is, it’s the B word, that’s the elephant in the room, France and Germany can be stronger on this because they’re part of a trading bloc. We on the other hand, are stuck between the US and the EU and we’re kind of trying to keep both sweet. And kind of try not to move too quickly. And that means having to be very diplomatic. And I think it might come back to bite Starmer because he was doing all this schmoozing, you know, and he still got a 10% tariff. And the question is, what is he gonna have to do to get that tariff reduced? Is it gonna be dropping the digital services tax while people won’t like the idea of tech billionaires or tech companies not paying their share when everybody else is dealing? With the rising costs of a global trade war and a potential global recession.

Nish Kumar Surely now, at last, it’s time to rip up these fucking fiscal rules. Like surely it’s absolutely unfathomable that we can be talking about a world that’s completely We’re talking about the collapse of, you know, really the last kind of 40 years of global trade policy. Surely, that is reason enough for Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves to ditched their goddamn fucking fiscal rules that they seem to have like, it’s like a chastity chain that they’ve locked their genitals into. The friction caused by the dry humping against the metal is doing serious damage to us as a nation.

Zoë Grünewald Thank you for that image. While I ponder that, I’ve lost my train of thought. Okay, fiscal rules. The Guardian have reported the government are debating whether to change fiscal rules to boost growth. But even with a relaxation to fiscal rules, we’re still looking at a lot of economic pain. Fiscal rules are all very well, but I think there’s still going to have to be some tax rises. The autumn is going to be really key for that because… So much changes in a week, what is going to happen between now and the autumn or now and next break?

Nish Kumar Just focusing on the kind of domestic political situation as it relates to the fallout of this. The government doesn’t appear to be completely united over how to respond to Trump. Foreign Minister David Lammy has told reporters that he regrets the return to protectionism in the United States, which then prompted Downing Street to reject his assertion. So everybody’s getting regretted and rejected. Is Lamy now in a tricky spot? Because Lamy has sort of previously been seen as P.S. Darm’s got a conduit into the Trump administration, particularly because of his friendship with JD Vance.

Zoë Grünewald Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, I would say if I had to put money on it, I’d probably say if there was another big reshuffle, I don’t think David Lammy would be foreign sec anymore. The point about JD Vance is interesting. Yes, they seemingly get on, but the question of how tight JD Vant and Trump are these days, I think is also an interesting one. So I wonder if Starmer would potentially want a foreign secretary who obeys the messaging a bit more going forward, whether it would be a case of him leaving his role soon. I don’t necessarily think so. I think at this point, the Labour government wants to seem really united and I don t think it’s like an all out war between David Lammy and Kirsten Hall or anything like that. So we might not see a reshuffle for a long time.

Nish Kumar So you’ve referenced that Stammer wrote an op-ed in the Telegraph, he said the world we know it has gone. It almost sounds like a sort of rejected Morrissey lyric. But there is this claim being made this week, not just by Stamber in his op-ped piece, but by various economists and economic journalists that were witnessing the kind of end of globalization. And is that it? Has Trump entered it with one kind of a zero piece of cardboard?

Zoë Grünewald The reason why, you know, this is different from the kind of interwar period where we saw similar trends, which was like, you know, post a big global event, you see countries getting slightly more isolationist, slightly more suspicious, I guess, of their neighbors. We now have tech, which is so much more advanced and citizens are much more socially connected to other countries than before. And we’re seeing these kinds of transnational movements, ideas, ideologies, where people are creating communities that cross borders. There’s even the billionaires who want those kind of global nomad citizenships as well. So whether we’d ever go back to a fully kind of isolationist time, I don’t think so. Because I think the horse has bolted, like now people are talking to each other all over the world. So you might get countries going a bit more protectionist in terms of their industrial strategy. But I wonder if we’ll ever see citizens being very kind of country focused again, like it feels with social media that It’s not. Really possible?

Nish Kumar When it comes to Trump, my assumption is always the worst possible outcome for everybody, but just hearing you start that conversation by talking about the collapse of a particularly 1990 style of globalized capitalism, is that something the left should be celebrating? Is Donald Trump the hero to the Generation X left that defined itself by an opposition to the WTO?

Zoë Grünewald The reason the left tended to not like globalization, it wasn’t because it was global, it’s because it was entrenching inequality and benefiting the rich. I think now it’s interesting because the left are often the people who are now kind of championing actually we need to be closer to the EU because I think they see a future built on shared values and whatever is coming round the corner from the right. Feels very, very dangerous at a time where the broad left should be uniting and trying to find a way forward rather than saying yes to isolationism.

Nish Kumar Yeah, I think that’s the concern, isn’t it? It’s that we’ve traded one form of undemocratic exploitative global capitalism for another that is just concentrating power in an even smaller percentage of the wealthiest people in the world. In any case, if you’re looking for more analysis on Trump’s outrageous tariffs and the fallout, please make sure to check out Crooked’s foreign policy show Pod Save the World.

Speaker 5 [AD]

Zoë Grünewald The legendary socialist politician Tony Benn, once called the most dangerous man in Britain by the Daily Mail, would have turned 100 last week. He was a Labour Mp for over 50 years, holding several significant cabinet posts in the 1960s and 70s and even competing for party leadership in 1988. Ben died in 2014, aged 88. But he continues to influence politics and a new generation of activists with his radical vision for justice, equality, and peace. A centenary anthology put together by his daughter, the author and political commentator, Melissa Benn, is a reminder of his political potency today. And she’s joining us now, Melissa. Welcome to Ponce of the UK. Thank you very much for having me. I’m thrilled.

Melissa Benn To be here.

Nish Kumar Melissa, your father received a review from the Daily Mail that even I have not received. The most dangerous man in Britain. Quite an extraordinary turn of phrase.

Melissa Benn I know and look at that friendly face, I’m just holding up the cover. I don’t know if it was the male, I think it might have been Kingsley Amis who first called him the most dangerous man in Britain. Kingsley, Amis the novelist, Martin Amis’s dad, but it’s true that there was a period where he was considered dangerous and that was when I was a teenager, I lived through all that.

Nish Kumar Why do you think he was considered dangerous? Because to people my age, his political beliefs were certainly very front and center and very formative to a lot of us. My earliest memory of him is having a sort of initially hostile and then quite genial interview with Ali G.

Melissa Benn Do you know, I think the Ali G interview was quite a moment in his life, because most people did not come out well of an Ali G Interview. And I sometimes try to work out why he did. I think it was because he didn’t make concessions to Ali G. He just said what he wanted to say. And I don’t know, he just had a way with him. But why was he considered so dangerous? I think because he was sincere. He was very radical. He became more radical. He had real political experience behind him. He’d been an MP from 25. He was the baby of the house. He’d be, as Zoe mentioned, a minister in the 60s and the 70s. And his views evolved. People often suggested that he was a sensible, centrist politician who went crazy on the hard left shoulder of British politics. Actually, if you look through his life, which I did to write the introductory essay, he was always quite radical, but he became more radical and being a minister really changed his view of the way everything worked, the economy, the civil service, the media. And then he became so radical that he left the Labour Party behind, or the Labour party left him behind. But from From that point on he then became more of a teacher and a preacher. And, you know, he was a fantastic speaker. I think I can say that even as his daughter, I can’t be objective and you wouldn’t expect me to be, and it’s a bit of a rare gift actually, when you look at our current leaders, there’s not many of her, she said politely.

Nish Kumar In the introduction to this book, you write that your father’s ideas have become more relevant as we move into what may be the most dangerous phase in global human history since the Second World War. I mean, we’re talking this week as Donald Trump’s tariffs rock the world and Keir Starmer has declared a new era of global instability, saying that the UK can’t be cowed and must seize new opportunities. Well, just two parts I think that I want ask you about. One is… What have you identified in what we’re moving through the moment collectively that makes this the most dangerous phase in human history since the second world war and how do you think the ideas that your father stood for most staunchly come to bed or have things to say about the time that we’re living in.

Melissa Benn I mean, what is not dangerous about where we are now? Everything. Trump’s craziness, the chaos, Russian invasion of Ukraine, growing inequalities since 1980, Labour welfare cuts, where do we stop? Where do we begin? That’s the first part of the question. I think that’s, that’s easier than answering part B-ish, which is what in his thinking would help us. And the thing I would want to say here is that… Because of the recent political history, particularly Boris Johnson pause for a feeling of unhappiness. Defeating Jeremy Corbyn in 2019 seemed to suggest, as did Keir Starmer’s broad but shallow victory, that the left were defeated. And actually, I am now old enough to see and to remember my father saying, all politics is cyclical. And I now see. Role again for the left at this moment. I can tell you what he would have thought about domestic politics and what the left are thinking about domestic politics, but actually James Medway, I think was on your program last week, said it all, that there are various things which the Labour government could do to tackle inequality. There are lots of things from a wealth tax to equalizing income tax and capital gains. To loosening the fiscal rule so you can borrow to invest so that you can get the economy going. All those things are left ideas. I think internationally it’s much more difficult to know what the answer is. Probably the answer is something a bit boring about creating new markets. The international situation is so unstable at the moment. It’s hard to come up with a distinct left view of it or I can’t.

Nish Kumar It’s something that we agonize over every week on this show, which is particularly from an international perspective. How do we replicate the success? The hard rights contagion of their ideas. There is a distinct connection between the domestic and foreign policies of Donald Trump, Benjamin Netanyahu, Mohammed bin Salman, Vladimir Putin, Viktor Orban, Narendra Modi, however many of these strong man hard right leaders you want to name, the list seems endless and the growing influence of the AFD in Germany is also a wing of that. The thing that I’m agonizing over is how we create a parallel block of ideas and philosophies that actually are given voice by mainstream politicians to actually push back against that international wave.

Melissa Benn I think you need people who really believe in alternative policies, and I think we have a very, very cautious government. Lose him as I do, Farage seems to cut through. He has some ability to communicate. And I think Tony, dad, did have that as well. He was an explainer. And actually, he recognized that it’s about going to where people are and explaining and communicating. And I think this tendency… Of politicians still to put a piece in the Telegraph, put a peace in the Times, go on the Today program is missing a whole set of constituencies.

Nish Kumar One of the things that your father absolutely was, was staunchly anti-war. He argued that all war represents a failure of democracy, calling for international cooperation, especially around human rights. We’ve actually got a clip of his stunning speech against the Iraq War that we’re going to play in now.

Clip War is an easy thing to talk about, there are not many people of the generation that remember it. The right honorable gentleman served with the 6th and the last war never killed anyone but I wore uniform, but I was in London in the Blitz in 1940 living in the Milbank Tower where I was born. Some different ideas have come in since. And every night I went down to the shelter in Thames House. Every morning I saw Dockland burning. 500 people were killed in Westminster one night by a landmine. It was terrifying. Aren’t Arabs terrified? Aren’t Iraqis terrified? Don’t Arab and Iraqi women weep when their children die? Doesn’t bombing strengthen their determination? What fools we are to live in of a generation for which war is a computer game for our children and just an interesting little Channel 4 news item. Every member of parliament tonight… Who votes for the government motion will be consciously and deliberately accepting the responsibility for the deaths of innocent people if the war begins, as I fear it will. Now that’s for their decision to take. That’s quite something.

Nish Kumar It’s an extraordinary speech.

Melissa Benn When I was writing the introduction, I was trying to think why has he endured, but so many of the giants of his generation have not. And I think it’s because he does, and I don’t say this cynically, comes across very well on TikTok and Twitter and all those things, those short extracts of speeches. And that, I think that is such a powerful clip. It makes me quite emotional every time I hear it. But to pick up your point, Nish, he was against war. I mean, he led Stop the War Coalition against the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. But of course, he completely believed in the Just War and fought in the war of 1939 to 45. So it’s not a total anti-war position. It’s about deciding what are the balance of forces and where is social justice best served. And that’s what would have to be decided now if, and I hope we never get to that, we move into an international conflict of that kind.

Zoë Grünewald Melissa, what do you think your father would make of the government’s approach to the war in Gaza, particularly, because that has obviously received a lot of ire from not just the Labour left, but actually plenty within Labour and across the political spectrum. What do you think your father would say?

Melissa Benn About this. I know what he would have said because he had begun as a supporter of Israel, had been to Israel immediately after the Second World War, and slowly and reluctantly became very critical of the Israeli government and its, as he saw it, occupation and containment, and I suppose a form of apartheid within Gaza and the West Bank. He would have spoken out equivocately. And constantly about what has happened in Gaza and the massive loss of life, like Jeremy Corbyn does now, and like many on the left do. And he would not have accepted that it was a form of anti-Semitism. He would have made it very clear, as people do now, that it’s a criticism of the Israeli government and the right who are in control of the Israeli government. Way they’re waging a war against the Palestinians. So I have no doubt about that. Melissa, let’s talk a bit about your work.

Zoë Grünewald Because one of the things that the broad left, I’ll call them, can often unite behind is the importance of education. And obviously, this is a big point of yours. And as we know, the Children’s Well-being and Schools Bill is making its way through parliament and it includes a raft of measures that are going to impact schools. I’d love to hear from you about what you think the big reforms are that we should be paying attention to. And just your thoughts on the bill, how will it actually protect children? Is there anything missing? What are your reflections?

Melissa Benn Yeah, I mean, I think I would take a step back and talk about the bill in a slightly different way. Having lived through the Gove era, Michael Gove, as some people may remember, was Secretary of State for Education in the coalition government, and he just within a year kind of revolutionized the school system. He cut the links with local authorities, he crammed the curriculum full of traditional views about things, he marginalized teachers and so on. My thinking about this Labour government is that it’s always the way that the right, I mean, Trump’s a perfect, a mad perfect example, the right often are much bolder and they come in and they just, they don’t give a damn, you know, in a way. And Labour’s come in with these rather moderate reforms really, children and well-being bill. I mean it covers lots of things, children in care and all sorts of things. But on education, none of it is revolutionary. None of this is tackling the catastrophic decline of local connection to schools, which we’ve seen with the catastrophic decline of the local authority. None of it is tackling the big academy chains, some of whose leaders earn, I think, twice or even more than the Prime Minister does. You know, these are new power centers. And I think what’s really striking, and it’s also true about Vat on private school fees is that these people are very powerful within political. Culture and they are assaulting the Labour government for its mild reforms. They don’t like Bridget Phillipson because she and Rachel Reeves are quite tough about the 20% imposition on private schools. Certain figures like Catherine Burbleson, which some of your listeners might know of, who is a quite, let’s say, controversial headteacher in my borough of Brent, has said that Bridget Phillipson and Becky Francis, who’s leading the curriculum review, will destroy our schools. It’s crazy. It should be worth the Goathe universe. The people that Gove enabled and promoted who now have quite a lot of control of our education and a very clear view of what education should be like, which is a kind of diluted private school approach for the masses, they are just not going to let Labour do something a bit more democratic and inclusive.

Nish Kumar We should say one of Gove’s, one of the people he emboldened most publicly, one of his great mentees, Kemi Badenok has said that this is an act of vandalism where deprived children will pay the price. Melissa, is it worth just engaging with for a second in what this bill actually does positively that seems to have wound Kemi up to such an extent?

Melissa Benn What does the bill do? It says that all schools should teach the national curriculum. That schools shouldn’t be allowed to have exceptions. It says you should have qualified teachers in every school. It’s talking about bringing in free breakfast clubs in every school and it’s saying that schools should not be allowed to propose and enforce branded uniform that’s very expensive for thousands of children from homes that are struggling with the cost of living. I mean, that is not revolutionary stuff. A lot of head teachers who are not within that Gov universe have said this is a kind and thoughtful bill and that it should be supported. So I don’t think we should listen to those hysterical voices on the right about what Labour are doing on education. And similarly, I was looking at the figures today about that on private schools. Huge fuss about that. Huge fuss. I’m part of the group called the Private School Policy Reform Group and we’re just about to look at the coverage of the VAT proposal and I think almost every day there are people saying this is going to destroy a wonderful pillar of society. If you look at Nobody has left private schools. The figure stays the same at six to 7%. We were told the state schools would be flooded and wouldn’t be able to deal with all the refugees from the private sector because they couldn’t afford it. The reports from local councils are that there’s hardly been a shift at all. I accept there are some parents whose children are in special needs schools because the state can’t cope with special need provision. That’s a separate question, that’s a huge problem in the education.

Nish Kumar What is your feeling about that?

Melissa Benn Well, I’m not a particular expert on it, but from just thinking about it and reading about it, it’s a crisis that has been evolving and building. It has not been solved. It is now on Labour’s plate. And it’s probably largely a budgetary question. And that goes back to what we were talking about earlier, money. We are told there is not money for our public services. In fact, we may have to face cuts. You can’t solve all problems by changing regulations. You can solve the problems in our schools actually by harmonizing the curriculum. At some point you have to spend money and money on the children who need it most, but they’re not gonna do that.

Zoë Grünewald When you talk about this, you know, this bill isn’t really radical in the way the education system maybe needs it to be. What things would you implement that could change our education system?

Melissa Benn I think you need to look at European systems that have much longer and more serious teacher education schemes so that it is a genuine vocation and that you think of it as a job for life. You think about what people who are going through the education system as educators are going to need. People who want to have families and so on, people who might want to work four week and you don’t pile them with all sorts of data tasks. And an overstuffed curriculum and make it a job hard to do. And you give them more autonomy in terms of doing their job. So I think we’ve gone really wrong in the way that we treat teachers and therefore the way that we treat.

Nish Kumar I just want to briefly return to something your father said. He said, there is no final victory as there is not final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought over and over again. The political landscape is increasingly bleak and it’s easy for a lot of us. I was going to say, who listen to the show, it’s easier sometimes for a lot of who present the show to feel incredibly disheartened. What is a message of optimism that you can distill from? Observing his life and his messages that you can deliver to the listeners and I cannot stress this enough, also the hosts.

Melissa Benn Yeah, well, I think you don’t do a bad job, actually, of keeping a bit of a little flame of hope alive, but also you do it with humor. So you’re doing, I would say, little self-patronizing. You’re doing your bit.

Nish Kumar No, no, I think you bang on. I’ll take a little as being quite generous.

Melissa Benn Okay. And also I think I don’t want to sound sycophantic either. So the other thing that I would say is I think he was absolutely right. There have been so many points of demoralization, even in the last 10 years. I mean, the moment seems to be getting bigger and worse, but there is no final defeat. And I think that’s something else the left have to do is think where, what are the cells and communities and groups and constituencies where we can start talk about resistance. But also generate good ideas for change, spread some radical ideas, do it with hope and humor. Make sure that you protect your own wellbeing. Politics is a brutal business. And so you’ve got to fight but keep your own sense of balance. And I don’t think there’s any more magic answer than that and speak up. That’s the best I can offer.

Zoë Grünewald Melissa, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK. The Most Dangerous Man in Britain, The Political Writing by Tony Benn is out now.

Nish Kumar [AD]

Nish Kumar Now for a couple of truly shocking what the fucks that have happened this week. First up, Israel has detained and deported two Labour Mps, Yuan Yang and Avitzar Mohammed. The pair said that they were there to visit humanitarian aid projects and communities in the West Bank with charities long used to hosting parliamentary delegations. They were stopped at the airport on Sunday because they were suspected of plans to, and this is a direct quote, document the activities of security forces and spread anti-Israel hatred, according to a statement from the Israeli Immigration Ministry.

Zoë Grünewald Foreign Secretary David Lamme said Israel’s actions were unacceptable, counterproductive and deeply concerning. And Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, Emily Thornberry, said it was an insult to Britain. But Kemi Badenok struck a strikingly different tone. Here she is on Sky News.

Clip I think that every country should be able to control its borders, and that’s what Israel is doing as far as I understand. They gave reasons why they didn’t believe that those people should come in based on their laws. And it’s really important that we respect other countries enforcing their borders. Those Labour MPs, according to the Israelis, were coming in to do something that they were not allowed to do, and so I respect that decision.

Zoë Grünewald Cami seems to be showing more solidarity with the Israeli government than two Labour Mps here. I mean, Nish, should we be surprised?

Nish Kumar Now, I mean, listen, at this point in Kemi Badenoch’s already malfunctioning career as the leader of the conservative party, clutching at straws is almost too polite a description of what she’s doing. I think at this time, if Kemi thought it would score her anything like a political point, she would side with North Korea, Dr. Evil, whoever you want to pick. She’s so frantically scrambling for anything, approaching a headline grabber a positive way. I don’t agree with this, but I at least see the logic of saying that people should not come to the country because they’re spreading anti-Israeli hatred. But I would also just draw people’s attention to the first part of that. Document the activities of the security forces. Now, I would say, if you are concerned about people documenting the activities of your security forces, that is because your security’s forces are up to some shady fucking shit. Last year, Israel declared UN Secretary General Antonio Gutiérrez to be undesirable and prohibited him from entering the country. Two members of the European Parliament also denied entry in February. There’s sort of two separate conversations here, which is one, do we ever need to take anything Kemi Bowdoin said seriously anymore? Is there any point? Are we wasting our own time even having that conversation about her? But two, how far does the Israeli government have to push it before unequivocal support, which is unequivalent to the unequalist, unequalatic, that could it could possibly be unequal. How much further are they going to have to push this before we start engaging in a reasonable dialog around the conduct of Netanyahu and his government?

Zoë Grünewald Yeah. I mean, on your first point, particularly about Kemi Badenog, she just wants to be anti-woke, anti-Labour, anti-nuance. It’s not serious leadership. On the Israel question, and I think this is really important, you know, David Lammy came back and said, how would you feel if the Tory members in your party who have been sanctioned by China received this kind of treatment? And she came back, and said well, that’s China. Israel’s our ally. Well, if they’re our ally, how can we accept that kind of treatment, it is getting. Extremely problematic for Labour having this kind of relationship with Israel, with Netanyahu. And I think, you know, to see your own, for Starmer to see his own MPs detained, I think should be a real wake-up call.

Nish Kumar Labour has made a rod for its own back here. Israel has shown contempt for elements of international law. Organizations like the Icc exist for a reason, and that was part of the rules-based international order that we were an integral part of setting up in the aftermath of the Second World War. So if the Icc issues arrest warrants and Keir Starmer is dismissive of those. He is essentially writing blank checks for Israel to behave in any way, shape or form it sees fit. Some of this is chickens coming home to roost for Kirstam.

Zoë Grünewald I think that’s absolutely true and I think it’s worth pointing out that Yang particularly, one of the things that she said in parliament was that she wanted a ceasefire and that it was absolutely imperative that journalists be allowed into the region to make sure that, you know, that there is the highest levels of scrutiny and accountability when this conflict is going on and the UK, like the US, has involvement there and to have that MP turned away, detained and deported at the border. For asking for that minimal bit of scrutiny is extraordinary and I think tells you a lot about a country that as you say, Nish, we are supporting, that we are providing military support to and that consistently is showing disregard for international order and international law, and I think with Keir Starmer’s background as a human rights lawyer. It is extraordinary to me that he would turn a blind eye to it, and it’s something that is going to infuriate a lot of MPs.

Nish Kumar On Monday, a team of human rights lawyers from The Hague delivered a landmark verdict to the Met Police’s war crimes team, making accusations of war crimes against 10 Britons who served in the Israeli military in Gaza. This is something that should be really concerning us as a country, right?

Zoë Grünewald Absolutely. So this was a 240-page dossier reported on by The Guardian that alleges some extraordinarily chilling things. So targeted killings of civilians and aid workers, including by sniper fire, indiscriminate attacks on civilian areas, including hospitals between October 2023 and May 2024. I mean, things that a lot of people were warning about and were saying that were happening. Really is horrific to read. And of course, Israel has persistently denied that its political leaders or military have committed war crimes during its assault on Gaza, in which it’s killed more than 50,000 people, of course most of them civilians.

Nish Kumar Before we go, it is just worth saying, we’re nine months into this parliament now, and there are things that the Labour Party will want to tout as kind of triumphs, you know, wins on workers’ rights, movements towards rail nationalization. But I guess like Zoe, before we go just like, why are they not doing more things? Is this what it always looks like to have your face pressed up against the glass of British politics? Or do you think there is something in this idea that… The Labour government is not moving at the rate that we would hope, expect, or even need as a country.

Zoë Grünewald Yeah, I think there’s two things. So the first is the factors that are sort of in their control. And that is that I think there is just a lack of ambition, and a lack have desire to be radical in the Labour government. I think there is, you know, that Mingvar’s analogy that is always trotted out, it’s still carried over into government. It’s this, this feeling that change has to be incremental. A time where a lot of the country feel like they don’t have the patience or maybe they just don’t even think they can survive incremental change. When you’re talking about people working several jobs and still having to collect universal credit or people not being able to heat their homes or people having their benefits taken away, a lot people feel like they just actually might not survive without a radical change to the way society operates and the way politicians operate. We’ve seen that in things like planning reform and the Employment Rights Bill. These things will make a difference, but they’re slow and they take a long time and they have a lot of players and Labour wants to make sure everyone’s happy. I think it’s just that maybe that sort of nervousness. I’m sure it’s also because of the right of the Labour Party taking control as well. They’re obviously much more worried about pragmatism and business and things like that. I also think it has to do with the fact that there isn’t a lot of old hands in this government. Then the other thing is that all the reasons we’ve just spoken about Nish, which is that the pace of global change continues to divert the government’s agenda every week. Every time Richard Reeves finds some fiscal headroom, well, it gets wiped out by something somebody is doing on the other side of the world. Trump has completely turned their plans upside down. There is stuff happening, the school’s bill, employment’s rights bill, renter’s reform, planning stuff, good progressive stuff that can make a difference. Part of it is that we’re just not talking about it much because the news is what’s happening in the rest of the world, but it’s also that they feel the need to get everyone on side and I think that slows things down.

Nish Kumar Well look, it’s Easter, that’s the time of rebirth, so fingers crossed we’ll be coming back into a reinvigorated Keir Starmer, or indeed an invigorated for the first time Keir starmer. But that is it, thank you so much for listening to this week’s show, stay tuned for a Mailbag special next week where Coco and I will be answering all of your burning questions.

Zoë Grünewald And don’t forget to follow Podsave the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. And we’re on Blue Sky now too. So follow us at podsavetheuk.crooked.com if you want more of us and make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel.

Nish Kumar Pods Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.

Zoë Grünewald Thanks to senior producer James Tyndale and producer May Robson with additional research from Nada Smilyanich.

Nish Kumar Our theme music is by Vasilis Votopoulos.

Zoë Grünewald The executive producers are Tanya Hines, Madeleine Herringer and Katie Long, with additional support from Ari Schwartz.

Nish Kumar And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your puck.