This Friday, MPs are challenged with an enormous question of conscience – should we allow people with six months left to live the right to die at a time of their choosing?

Joining Nish and Coco is Rosena Allin-Khan, Labour MP for Tooting and A&E Doctor, to help us understand the strong feelings on both sides of the debate, the difficult decision that MPs are grappling with and how she decided which way she will vote.

As the UK reels in the wake of Storm Bert, climate change lawyer Tessa Khan celebrates a victory in the legal fight against fossil fuels and tells us why the UK could lead the world on the environment.

A petition calling for a General Election only months after the last one makes Nish’s blood boil. And have you ever wondered what  Keir Starmer likes to cook? A clue: it involves pasta, and it’s not very exciting.

** We have a special competition for listeners to win tickets to a special preview screening of the film Rumours, starring Cate Blanchett, next Thursday 05/12/24. To win up to two tickets,  we’re asking what your political highlight was this year – they can be funny, sad, insightful or inspiring. To enter, fill in this form: https://tinyurl.com/45s5uz7t   **

Guests:

Rosena Allin-Khan

Tessa Khan

Useful Links:

Stop Rosebank – https://www.stopcambo.org.uk/

Audio Credits:

ITV News

LBC

BBC

Sky News

Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.

Contact us via email: PSUK@reducedlistening.co.uk

Insta: https://instagram.com/podsavetheuk

Twitter: https://twitter.com/podsavetheuk

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@podsavetheuk

Facebook: https://facebook.com/podsavetheuk

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@PodSavetheUK

TRANSCRIPT

[AD]

Nish Kumar Hi, this is Pod Save the UK. I’m Nish Kumar.

Coco Khan And I’m Coco Khan. This week, Parliament is making a huge decision. Should assisted dying be legalized? We’re speaking with Labour MP Dr. Rosena Allin-Khan.

Nish Kumar And following on from a whole lot of hot air at Cop 29. What role does the UK have to play in tackling the climate crisis? We’ll be finding out with lawyer Tessa Khan.

Coco Khan A triple Khan episode. Don’t tell the Home Office. And amidst this week of huge moral choices, ITV’s This Morning is asking the hard questions of Prime Minister Keir Starmer.

Clip What’s your go to dish? Yeah.

Clip What is your signature?

Clip What’s your signature? What’s the Keir Starmer signature dish? Well, it’s the one the kids make me do over and over again. It’s a pasta bake where you do layers of. So how might sauce then? Different cheeses and you layer it up with a sauce on top?

Nish Kumar Is that lasagna? You’re describing a lasagna.

Coco Khan You know, you’re never welcome in Italy again saying that.

Nish Kumar Well, I mean, it sounds like.

Coco Khan Does it sound like a lasagna?

Nish Kumar I don’t know what it sounds like.

Coco Khan There’s no meaty ragu. So the rest of that clip. Yeah, I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but after he talks about the pasta bake, he talks about tandoori salmon. Does he? Yeah, he’s. I’m also good at tandoori salmon. First of all, that sounds tasty. Second of all, do you think he focus grouped that, to win back the the Asian vote?

Nish Kumar He’s Asian, but he’s not too Asian. It’s Tandoori, but it’s still salmon.

Coco Khan Yeah.

Nish Kumar You give my dad salmon, the guy spit out a plate. I don’t care how it was prepared. But in any case, of the later part of the interview, after we got through with salmon activities and Cat Deeley brought his attention to a petition calling for another election, which at the time of recording is at 2.73 million signatures. Here is what Starmer had to say about it.

Clip Look, I remind myself that very many people didn’t vote Labour at the last election, but I’m not surprised that many of them want a rerun. That isn’t how our system works. There will be plenty of people who didn’t want to see it in the first place. So what I focuses on is the decisions that I have to make every day.

Nish Kumar Okay, so listen, the man behind this petition, who’s the landlord of the Wagon and Horses pub in Oldbury is a chap called Michael Westwood. And his big selling point was that he was selling pints for 2 pounds for the pub to the sort of like inflation busting price. He also voted Tory at the last election. He told Nick Ferrari on LBC why he started the petition.

Clip That if the system is broken, if the storm hits ISIS does this, you know our country works well. Should we settle for the thing for a while? Isn’t it worthwhile? Shouldn’t be listening to the people. Maybe it’s the shift is broken. We should sit and look at fixing my vehicles and just burying heads in the sand and carrying on the What always been done.

Coco Khan This is for the listeners, Nish is holding his head in his hand.

Nish Kumar I’m going to give myself a hernia.

Coco Khan Exasperated, like.

Nish Kumar Trying to talk about this in a reasonable way. Listen, the only reason that this petition is getting so much attention is because it’s being highlighted by conservative commentators and opposition politicians. And for some reason, Michael Caine, who’s also just sort of waded in into this issue.

Coco Khan Michael Caine is on a singular mission to ruin some of my favorite films.

Nish Kumar Conservative Party Chairman Nigel Hudson declared the honeymoon well and truly over. Nigel Farage remarked that he’s never seen a petition move this fast, but perhaps the member for Clacton should be reminded. In 2019, a petition calling for Brexit to be canceled received 6.1 million signatures and did not amount to anything. It did not. So a lot of the people who have been most loudly trumpeting the values of this petition are also the people who were very, very angry about the idea of there being any kind of scrutiny of Brexit. What I would say to these people is this is not like Brexit. Brexit was a decision that was made that will not be overturned for generations, right? If you are unhappy with this Labour government, there is a constitutional mechanism that will allow you to throw them out of office and it’s called a general election. And the reason that we have term limits on parliaments that can’t be recalled unless there is will to do so from within the House is because if we constantly went to the public on an annual basis, there would be no time to legislate on things. There would be no time for the business of government to actually take place. I don’t want to sound anti-democratic here, but this is this is a load of shit. Like, this whole thing is just a load of shit because we know millions of people didn’t want Labour to be in office. We also know millions of people that voted for Labour are not happy with the direction of travel of the current government. It’s just bullshit that’s being elevated by bad actors within the political system and also from outside the political system, because once again, the man who looks like someone stretched skin over a shipping container. Elon Musk, has weighed in because he tweeted, The people of Britain have had enough of. A tyrannical police state is so concerning that an incredibly wealthy man has essentially been able to buy his way into influence between the American government and is consistently and unhelpfully weighing in on British political issues. Okay. He is a huge factor in the circumstances that drove the race riots that happened in this country in August. It is something we really, really need to be mindful of. Now, he seems to have bought his way into the highest echelons of American government, but he’s still weighing in on this issue.

Coco Khan I can’t believe we have the misfortune of Elon Musk being interested in us just simply by the virtue that we speak the same language. I had never wanted Britain to be bilingual, more Swiss, to just be like, You know what? Let’s all just talk in German for the next bit. Just to this guy, he just can’t participate. And I think it’s also worth mentioning that the petition is easily open to manipulation. All you need to do is share an email address. You then tick a box to say that you’re a UK citizen. You enter a UK postcode. I mean, it’s not really that hard to get a UK postcode. Find it on the on the Google. And of course you can always misrepresent yourself as a UK citizen. There has actually been some posts on X circulating where people have tried to crunch the data of who who signing this and it seems to be coming from all around the world. So I’m not entirely sure this is valid.

Nish Kumar Last week we had a fantastic chat with disinformation expert Jamie Bartlett, where we explored why Musk is so interested in messing with the UK’s political system. There was a special, uncut version on our YouTube page right now, which you should check out if you haven’t already. But ironically, Jamie did make the point that perhaps in the digital age, our way of doing democracy, which is a vote on national government every five years, should change, but perhaps not in this way. Democracy is a kind of fragile balancing act between constantly getting the people to have their say and have the opinion of the populace heard, but also actually allowing government to not constantly be in campaign in election mode and actually get on with the business governing. We need actual legislation that can actually do things that improve people’s lives.

Coco Khan Yeah, absolutely. And you know, maybe maybe some people very innocently believe, well, actually, how else will I show the Labour government that I’m frustrated with them? We can assure you they definitely know. The opinion polls have shown that Starmer’s approval has fallen sharply. They’re very well aware of it. And actually, if we want a real test, it’s coming in May next year. We’ve got the 2025 council elections and I think everyone’s going to be looking closely at those.

Nish Kumar Their council elections. There’s going to be plenty of by elections as the cycle of the parliament goes on and eventually you will get the opportunity to vote them out, which I would encourage if you were unhappy you to do. Just don’t waste your time engaging with these kind of pointless petitions demanding an election that there is no constitutional mandate for them to give you. Like he doesn’t make any it doesn’t make any sense. And it’s just, you know, as usual, Nigel Farage as shit is puns and we’re all required to give him attention over it. Now we have some very exciting news. We have a special competition for our listeners in London next Thursday.

Coco Khan That’s right. We’ve got 70 seats available for a special preview screening of Rumors, a new black comedy film from Universal exploring the, how do we say, surprising reactions of G7 leaders in the wake of a crisis.

Nish Kumar And the film stars Cate Blanchett. And if you consider yourself to be a reasonable or decent person, you love Cate Blanchett, okay. She’s one of the greatest actors of all time. To win up to two tickets, we’re asking what your political highlight was this year. Now, this can be something that was funny, sad, insightful or inspiring. We will not be accepting responses that include the obvious number one moment of the year. Rishi Sunak announcing the election while standing in the pouring rain. The best responses will win. This is not a scientific subject. It is going to be purely subjective and wide based. Find a link to the competition in our show notes. Rumors, meanwhile, is released in UK and Irish cinemas on the 6th of December.

[AD]

Coco Khan Now, this Friday, Parliament has an immense question of conscience as it votes on a bill to introduce assisted dying.

Nish Kumar The private member’s bill, introduced by Labour MP Kim Leadbeater, entitled Terminally Ill Adults End of Life Bill, would allow adults who are terminally ill with six months left to live, to request and be provided with assistance to end their own life, subject to safeguards and protections. It would apply in England and Wales. Scotland is looking at its own legislation.

Coco Khan So the Government is allowing MPs a free vote on the bill. And after weeks of campaigning, Kim Leadbeater she appears resolute. She’s been arguing for the benefits of the bill. Here she is speaking to Sky News.

Clip Trevor Phillips We have got people now who the law is failing. We have got people taking their own lives. We have got families losing loved ones in very harrowing circumstances. And we have got people having very painful deaths. I’ve just had another email coming through and I’ve had hundreds, thousands probably now, actually, of someone who’s a surgeon who has seen horrible deaths of people who’ve got incurable and inoperable cancers. And so there is a very clear problem that needs to be solved. And actually, by creating a legal framework, we will improve the situation.

Nish Kumar But there is strong opposition across Parliament with the two longest serving MPs, Labour’s Diane Abbott and conservative Sir Edward Lee arguing in The Guardian that people might feel a duty to die. They also voiced concerns for vulnerable minority groups and stated that the bill has not received enough parliamentary scrutiny. Speaking to the BBC, Health Minister Wes Streeting has also voiced his opposition.

Clip I’ve made it clear that I’ll be voting against the assisted dying bill this time. That’s mainly because I don’t think that palliative care, end of life care is where it needs to be to give people a real choice. I’m concerned about the risk of people being coerced into taking their lives sooner than they would have liked or feeling, even without pressure from their families. Sometimes guilt tripped feeling like a burden. And I’ve had to weigh up all of those issues.

Coco Khan The British Medical Association has an official position of neutrality, and according to a YouGov poll, 73% of people are in favor of the bill. Those who voted Labour and Lib Dem in the last election are more likely to be in favor. But those who voted Conservative and reform are still overwhelmingly supportive by a majority of two thirds.

Nish Kumar So this is a question of conscience and many MEPs will be voting primarily based on their values. Joining us now on Pod Save the UK is Rosena Allin-Khan, Labour MP for Tooting, who is not only an MP but also a doctor. Welcome back to PSUK, Rosena.

Rosena Allin-Khan Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Nish Kumar Why do we keep inviting you on for the least fun conversations possible?

Rosena Allin-Khan I have a 100% track record of being here to talk about death. So feel free to throw us a bone the next time.

Coco Khan Yeah, yeah, yeah, we’ll find something nice.

Nish Kumar Yeah. The last time Rosena was on. It was to talk about the Covid inquiry and the experience of being on the wards during Covid. And now we just thought, you know what? It’s.

Rosena Allin-Khan No, I’m happy to be here. All jokes aside, and I think it’s a really important conversation to have.

Nish Kumar Of course it is. And you have such a, I think, significant and unique perspective on this issue. And I’m sure your views are very nuanced. So we want to get into the detail of all of those. As you know, both a lawmaker and a qualified medical professional. But have you decided at this stage how you’re going to vote?

Rosena Allin-Khan Yeah, I’ve given a significant amount of thought. I’ve done that both as a doctor, as a legislator, but also as a daughter of someone who did have a terminal illness and really understanding what it’s like to watch someone struggle and to just wish it could be all over for them. And I think not only that, I have also listened to my constituents who have really gone out there to to to sort of garner the views of what people are thinking, because, you know, as we say in South London, it’s one of them ones, isn’t It’s just you can’t I don’t think anyone can be criticized for holding the views that they have. It’s going to be deeply personal based on their own life experiences, their own fears for the future, for their family members. A lot of people I know I’ve thought about what would I do if I got the same as what my dad had? All of those things put together really have helped informed my view. And with all that being said, I have decided that on Friday I will vote against the bill in its current form.

Coco Khan And what was your journey with that? I mean, did you at one point what you think you might vote for it and you’ve changed? Or was it more that you held judgment until you were confident?

Rosena Allin-Khan I think for me, a key thing was about the safeguards in place, because a lot of the things we’ve heard about coercion, about the sorts of groups that would be more impacted. So those from. Difficult socioeconomic backgrounds, the BME community. We know that it is impossible to really deem whether coercion has taken place in any form, and currently the bill says that you would need two doctors separated in time to deem that no coercion has taken place. Except neither of those doctors have to have been the family doctor for the person involved. I always like to operate in the view that people are inherently good. I think it’s about a huge fear that because palliative care traditionally over the years hasn’t had the resourcing that it needs, social care hasn’t had the resourcing that it needs. I think out of fear, people may feel that to spare their family a lot of pain and anguish watching them suffer, they may feel that they have no choice but to opt for assisted dying. Now, that’s not to say that those that are calling for assisted dying to be legalized don’t have a really good point. There isn’t a one size fits all because if you look at some of the really painful sort of degenerative illnesses like motor neuron disease, terminal cancer, all of those things, I would never criticize anyone in a million years that said, I would do anything to stop my family having to watch that I would do anything, not to have to go through that. So I think what’s so hard about Friday and what I would really caution against is, is against it being some sort of moral crusade, one side versus the other. But for everyone to approach it with real compassion and understanding that we all come to our own personal views, our political views, our life views on a journey of our own life experiences. Right. Our hopes, our fears, how we grew up, all of those things together in one. And I think people will vote based on a lot of that, but for me, quite simply isn’t safe enough. And I. Do you think We do need to look at ways, though, in which we can support people better for end of life care? I don’t think palliative care has been optimized.

Nish Kumar There’s so many important things that what said that I’d like for full disclosure for people listening or watching this. You know, we have a meeting where we discuss the issues that we’re going to talk about on the show. I don’t want to break the illusion here, but we don’t just hop on the mikes and vibe out. And very often we come to a conversation where it’s very clear what my perspective will Coco’s perspective, perspective, what the producer’s perspectives are going to be on a subject. Sometimes it’s pretty obvious even going into the conversation. Well, that’s going to be and with this particular issue, nobody is able to come down declaratively on one side or another. We spent over the course of the meeting that we had on Monday, my views kind of went in and out. I still personally don’t know where I sit on this specific issue and it is a really complicated thing and it is a really difficult decision to come to. But let’s try and drill down into a couple of the key issues here. One of them is what you said about palliative care. What are the specific issues at the moment with palliative care and what’s a change that you would like to see be brought in that might make you more supportive of this bill? If one of the key issues is we’re not providing adequate end of life care. So that means we might not be giving people a genuine choice here.

Rosena Allin-Khan I think pain is one thing that people fear a lot. If we think about death, we think about the pain that surrounds that. And we’ve palliative care. It’s a specialty of medicine, palliative care medicine, where you have extremely skilled doctors and nurses who are lifelines. I mean, the palliative care nurse that we had at the end of my dad’s life, I said, she is a true example that not all angels have wings. But the journey we took to get on to even get her was was very difficult. And I remember the nights I spent my head in my hands just crying, just. Just having no idea. As a medical professional, how I can help my dad with his payment. I just didn’t have a clue. And we also know that those from more socioeconomically deprived areas, those from the BME community, they typically have less access to health services and to palliative care than other groups. And so it’s about widening access. It’s about improving resources so that we have more staff, we have more access to pain relief, to good quality care, because, for example, if someone on on an end of life pathway requires morphine and requires a pump that can help with all of that, someone has to, you know, physically support them With that, you need staff. I think also for me, though, is the two doctors. My understanding is that neither of them need to know the family. Well. It’s how do you. Interview someone for for the for the decision making process and know anything about their family background and know about who might have said well who’s got skin in the game. Yeah and I think again you know GP’s are they work so hard as the palliative care teams, they’re amazing. But I’d probably feel more comfortable if it was a medical professional that knew the family, that knew the dynamics. It was able to talk through it all from a position of knowledge. I try and look at this from a protecting the most vulnerable perspective. So for me, even if there was a tiny proportion of people that would be at risk, that’s enough for me not to feel comfortable enough to vote for something to be legislation. Saying that, though, if you look at the number of cases. So it’s currently not illegal to take your own life. It is illegal to enable someone sort of or encourage them to take their own life. And that can be met with a maximum sentence of 14 years. The number of cases that actually go through to prosecution are pretty much nil. Actually, I don’t I don’t know what the middle ground is. Right. I feel like there should be some middle ground between what we have now and something that enables us to protect the most vulnerable, because the fact that people have to currently fly to places like Switzerland and even and then in their life even sooner because they have to be fit to get on a plane and travel. But that’s heartbreaking. It makes you want to cry like it’s it’s heartbreaking. And that’s why I say, you know, coming to this decision is so binary on Friday, like yes or no, but but you can’t legislate for human emotion.

Coco Khan I’ve been really moved by the testimony of disability rights campaigners on this issue. It seems like the majority of them are opposed to the bill. I did want to mention Liz Carr, the actress. She’s been doing a lot of work on this and she observed that in Canada they had a assisted dying bill. And the the conditions for it was that the person who applied for this had to be facing imminent death. But then they changed it to suffering unbearably in 2021. And she reflected in an interview that given her condition, no doubt she would meet the criteria. But also, you know, she lives a very full life. She’s a very happy person, a wonderful actor. And actually, the hashtag that has been going around is instead of assisted dying, assisted to live, I suppose disability has featured in your decision making as well.

Rosena Allin-Khan 100% that it really has because it’s it’s not for anyone else to deem what is a what’s a valuable life. And I remember going through things with my dad and how I felt. He was written off a lot because he had the early onset brutal type of dementia that Bruce Willis has. So it was like for us as a family and I think for him it was like death by a thousand cuts and a number of, you know, health care professionals that said, well, his quality of life is terrible because he’s kind of locked in his body and he can’t speak. And without my TV, you don’t know the joy that he gets that we see when he sees my two little girls like dancing and playing around. And, you know, when we had to take some difficult decisions in hospital and felt like we were really campaigning for his wellbeing. I mean, I’m a doctor, my brother is a professional. English is our first language. It still felt as though we were having to go into battle on some occasions. And that’s with really amazing medical professionals who listen to us because a huge amount of judgment was placed on the quality of his life. I’m like, you’re placing that. And given the fact that there was a huge chunk of time that he wasn’t in my life and a huge complex background there, we were actually relishing every day we had. And so for me, I’ve given a bit of a long old answer there. But it’s that point about nobody else should dictate what a valuable life is. It’s for the person living it and their families who very often have to go into buy. And you see that a lot in, you know, black and Asian and other minority families. You have to fight in a much more difficult way. Because I remember people saying, but he doesn’t, you know, like Mr. Khan, he was used to be a lecturer in English, I think. Yeah. You know, the fact that he can’t speak, that doesn’t mean he’s can’t understand the language and the reason he’s looking at you in a frustrated ways because he’s wondering why you’re shouting. But it’s that kind of thing. And I understand why, you know, people who campaign for the rights of, you know, minority groups, those who campaigned for those with disabilities, you know, their right to be. Because very often it is the idea in our minds that it’s those celebrities that have a huge platform that that have all the kind of campaigning materials and experience and advocacy. Yes, that’s important. But the ones that we also really need to think about and pay mind to are the ones who are never going to get on the telly and talk about their view.

Nish Kumar Polling is sometimes a difficult thing to kind of pin anything on, but in this instance there is quite a large sort of groundswell of support for some version. Of this only because I think with dementia patients, unlike listen, that’s something that, you know, my family is currently going through, is watching my grandmother suffer with dementia. And it is really difficult. But obviously, dementia is not really something that’s actually part of this specific conversation.

Rosena Allin-Khan No, it’s.

Nish Kumar Is it?  Because.

Rosena Allin-Khan Because she would be deemed to have capacity.

Nish Kumar Would be deemed to and she she does not have the capacity to give any kind of informed consent on this issue. But there is a sort of groundswell of support. For some version of this bill. It feels like this is the start of an ongoing conversation that I do think will eventually lead to some kind of formalized law that allows people to choose the manner of their death. Am I reading that right?

Rosena Allin-Khan I definitely think it started a conversation on an important one. Yeah. And if anything, it will really focus the minds on some of the safeguards that we’re talking about. And I think that’s. Even if it passes on Friday, there’s a long way to go because it’ll have to go to the Lords.

Nish Kumar Yeah.

Rosena Allin-Khan And be scrutinized by them. It might be watered down. We just don’t know which way it’s going to go. But I think it’s also. Made people think about not just living and dying, but about living well when you’re older. Yeah. And or if you’re unwell. And I think it’s it’s forced us to have a conversation about what does Death with Dignity look like? Because I don’t think we’ve spoken about that much before in this country. You know.

Nish Kumar Nobody wants to talk, you know, nobody wants to talk about it.

Rosena Allin-Khan Yeah.

Nish Kumar It is.

Rosena Allin-Khan Depressing.

Nish Kumar Isn’t it? It’s upsetting. And it’s it. But it’s the only you know, it’s death and taxes are the only two inevitable things in life.

Rosena Allin-Khan Yeah, yeah.

Nish Kumar Like this is something really important that we should talk about.

Rosena Allin-Khan It is. And I think, again, I couldn’t. I mean, I have no idea how it’s going to go on Friday and. I have good colleagues who I call friends who have differences of opinion on this, and that’s fine. Yeah.

Coco Khan I felt like at the beginning when the conversation started, it felt like most voices were for the bill and now oppositions kind of come out. I think there is just this this problem, which is that for people who are at the end of their life, you know, this legislation is a more dignified way for them to die right now, here today. Yeah. And anyone who knows someone in that condition, I think it would be very hard for them to. Yeah. To move away from that.

Nish Kumar It must be really difficult for somebody to hear in that position that if you sat here and saying, well, look, we don’t think this version is right. Yes, but another version might be right down the road. It must be really awful if you were in that position to go. I don’t have that kind of time. I need something now. I need something now to afford me the dignity.

Rosena Allin-Khan But even if it was passed, it takes so long. Yeah. The whole process is so lengthy. So anybody, you know.

Coco Khan But psychologically, it would help them, right? I mean, this would give them agency and it would it not help them even just have a mental calm, which is when it gets too much. I’m in control.

Rosena Allin-Khan Yeah, I think it really would.

Coco Khan Yeah. So. So what does that mean for the result, do you think?

Rosena Allin-Khan I don’t know. And I think that the mechanics of a Friday you guys probably know it’s it’s very different to the rest of the week because most people aren’t traditionally in on a Friday. It’s normally constituency time.

Nish Kumar Yeah.

Rosena Allin-Khan So those that are in on Friday particularly if they live in Scotland and Wales and Scotland, may choose to vote on this all the while all the all the MP from around the country essentially would go home on Wednesday night or Thursday. You’re either going to be there because you feel very strongly about voting on it.

Coco Khan You to because people do that. No, that’s outrageous.

Rosena Allin-Khan Or because you live close. Right. So, I mean, no, it’s it’s not a given. Everyone’s going to be there. We’re not witness to be there. So. I can’t. I genuinely can’t call it.

Coco Khan Sorry if I’m, you know, being naive about you, but I can’t believe anyone would not turn up to this vote. It feels really monumental. I’d be a bit angry if it was my MP. I’d want to know.

Rosena Allin-Khan I mean, I feel like people will be there, but it’s not as though we’re mandated to be there because three hours later, there’s another three line whipped vote.

Nish Kumar And if it doesn’t pass. As I say, I really don’t believe this is the end of this conversation because I think they the one thing that everyone here is an agreement with is that there are people in society that deserve the right.

Rosena Allin-Khan Absolutely.

Nish Kumar To a dignified death.

Rosena Allin-Khan Absolutely. That all the way.

Nish Kumar So in terms of then looking forward to this conversation, should the first thing we start doing be looking at investing in palliative care, changing the system around that and getting our care and health system into a position where the next time the bill is tabled, we can actually look people genuinely in the eye in society and say, this is offering you a real choice regardless of your material circumstances. Is that is that the next phase? If its a no-vote on Friday?

Rosena Allin-Khan That’s what I think. I think this has caused us to have really, really important conversations about what I mentioned earlier, that the dignity behind dying and the dignity behind end of life care and. I think it’s a shame that we can’t go into Friday having that optimized I think about take this stuff so seriously. Because I think as a. As an elected representative. It’s a huge burden to have on your shoulders and you have to really look at everything in detail and also know that you can look back at yourself in the mirror with the votes that you’ve taken. And I’ve tried to do that throughout my career, and this is no different. But whatever happens on Friday, I will respect the outcome and. Work on looking at how we strengthen safeguards and how we make dignity and death better.

Nish Kumar Rosena Allin-Khan, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK.

Rosena Allin-Khan Thank you.

Nish Kumar And my pledge to you is next time we will talk about something more fun.

[AD]

Coco Khan The UK’s reeling after a weekend of wild weather across the country. Storm Bert caused devastating flooding in England and a major incident in Wales. Hundreds of homes were underwater. Winds of up to 82mph were recorded and at least five people have died. So it’s very scary stuff.

Nish Kumar So extreme weather events like this are becoming more common and more intense. Over a fifth of UK homes have suffered storm damage and 1 in 8 have had flooding in the last five years, according to research done by the insurance company Aviva. With Cop 29 overshadowed by the reelection of a climate change denier as US president, Storm Bert is a harsh reminder that the climate crisis is literally knocking our door office hinges.

Coco Khan Joining us now to discuss how the UK government can lead the fight against climate change as Trump is looming large is Tessa Khan, a lawyer and director of Uplift, an organization that supports a fair transition away from oil and gas production in the UK. Hi, Tessa.

Tessa Khan Hi, Coco. Hi, Nish.

Nish Kumar From assisted dying to the climate crisis, this week’s episode has got it all. If by all you mean reason to be incredibly depressed, but Tessa you are part of the organization that is taking truly positive action. So back in 2023. Uplift, along with Greenpeace, took the Conservative government to court for signing off on a new Jackdaw gas field and Rosebank oil field off the coast of Scotland, claiming the decision was unlawful. The new Labour Government has since withdrawn its support, but oil companies Shell and Ecuador have said that they’ll fight it in court. Can you briefly explain what the grounds are for this legal challenge?

Tessa Khan So in short, the burning of oil and gas and coal are what are driving the climate crisis. Burning fossil fuels create carbon emissions, which are what changes our atmosphere and ultimately is leading to the world warming. So approving the UK’s largest undeveloped oil field, which is what the Rosebank oil field is in 2023, is completely irrational and in our view, also unlawful. So as you said, uplift together with Greenpeace, decided to legally challenge the last UK government’s decision to approve Rosebank. And we’re doing that on a couple of different grounds. The first is that, astonishingly, when the government approved Rosebank, it has to basically do an assessment of the environmental impacts that any oil and gas project will have. And when they conducted that environmental assessment, they didn’t take into account the climate harm caused by burning the oil in Rosebank Reserves, which is the single biggest environmental impact that that field will have. So we think that that’s crazy. Luckily, the UK Supreme Court just this summer agreed with us in a different case that it is crazy for government decision makers to approve new oil and gas projects without looking at the thing that is actually the most responsible for the climate within those projects, which is burning that oil and gas. So that’s an argument we’re making in court. This new UK government that we elected in July actually agrees with us that it was unlawful to approve the field without taking into account that climate impacts. So that’s great news. But we’re still fighting the oil and gas companies effectively in court on that. We’re also making a separate argument, which is that when the oil and gas regulator approved Rosebank, which it also had to do, it didn’t actually publish any of its reasons for why they thought it should be approved. And we think that, you know, really, as a matter of due process in a democracy, we should get to see the reasons for why a massively controversial new oil field is approved. The climate impact of Rosebank is disastrous. But the thing about Rosebank is that it’s also not going to do anything at all for the UK’s energy security or for energy bills, which are, I would say, the arguments that we generally hear about why we need to keep opening up new oil and gas fields. So Ross Banks oil like 80% of the oil that we produce in the UK ends up being exported. So it doesn’t go automatically into British cars or British homes. If we buy it back, we buy it back at the same international prices that anyone else in the world would be buying it from. And the companies themselves acknowledge that on that basis, it’s not bringing down our energy bills. It’s not any cheaper just because we make it domestically. The people who are profiting from the development of that field are the very wealthy oil and gas companies who are trying to develop it, which includes a Norwegian oil company called Equinor, which is partly owned by the Norwegian government. So effectively we are subsidizing Norwegian pensioners at the same time as British pensioners. Going cold this winter.

Nish Kumar I like legalized mugging. Like, it’s absolute nonsense. The one argument that is constantly put forward around any of these conversations around the climate crisis is that the oil and gas companies have been saying that revoking the license would cost thousands of jobs and the north of Scotland is very dependent on oil and gas in terms of as an employer. What do you say to people who say that they’re worried about job security in these areas?

Tessa Khan So, I mean, we take the question of jobs absolutely seriously. I mean, people’s livelihoods are critical. But I think, you know, the reality that most people don’t grasp is that jobs supported by the UK oil and gas sector have actually halved in the last decade. And that’s despite the conservative government handing out hundreds of new oil and gas licenses. And that’s because North Sea oil and gas is in irrevocable geological decline. You know, oil and gas production in the UK peaked decades ago. So regardless of how many of these new fields or new licenses you approve or you hand out, you still need to come up with a proper long term solution for job security and livelihoods in those communities. What we do know can create long term sustainable jobs because we have some of the best resources in the world is renewable energy. I mean, the UK has the second biggest offshore wind market in the world. We have the best renewable energy resources in Europe. You know, if we get the right sets of policies to support the development of those resources and make sure that investment stays at home, jobs stay in our communities, then we can have a genuinely thriving world leading energy industry for decades to come. And there is no world in which oil and gas is going to provide that.

Coco Khan I mean, I have to say, hearing you talk about the UK on the global climate stage, I had a little feeling of a bit of a patriotic swing. I have often genuinely, I often wonder where does the UK compare to other countries when it comes to climate action? I know Keir Starmer’s, he was at Cop recently and he pledged to restore the UK’s role as a climate leader. Are we actually a climate leader?

Tessa Khan Yeah. So I guess the first thing to remember is that leadership’s relative, right? So with that caveat, I guess obviously we’ve seen a pretty significant shift in, I would say, rhetoric and action with the new government that we’ve just elected, which has been elected with the understanding that it wants to make the UK a clean energy superpower. Yeah, there’s a lot of polling to show that across the UK people want the government to take climate change more seriously. They want us to go faster, not slower. It’s also true that the UK has, over the last decade or so, it’s done a lot to address greenhouse gas emissions. You know, we’ve reduced greenhouse gas emissions by about 50% in terms of what the UK emits compared to 1990 levels. The Prime Minister’s just set another very ambitious target, which is about 80% reduction in greenhouse gas emission levels by 2035. That’s a good thing. They’ve also signaled that they won’t be approving new oil and gas exploration licenses in the North Sea. That’s a good thing. And also, you know, arguably a world leading level of ambition. There are definitely, I would say, promising signs that as they’ve claimed, that the UK is kind of back in terms of climate leadership and frankly, we desperately need it at the moment.

Coco Khan I think a lot of the news from Cop was overshadowed by by Trump’s election. He’s quite clear about his aims. He wants to increase fossil fuel production. He’s just named Chris Wright, an oil and gas industry CEO, to be his next energy secretary. What does this mean for the UK’s bid to be a climate leader? We’ve got such a weird relationship with the US anyway, and I think, Am I right in thinking it’s not unreasonable to believe that the President of America taking this position is a significant historic knock back?

Tessa Khan Yeah, it’s definitely a bad thing. Like I would struggle to put a positive spin on Trump’s election, I think.

Nish Kumar I read somewhere it says and I please correct me if I’m wrong and I really want you desperately to correct me here because I really need psychologically to be wrong about this. But I read that there are some climate scientists that argue that if Trump carries out all of the policies he says he’s going to carry out on the climate crisis, it will negate the entire rest of the world’s efforts on climate change in the next four years.

Tessa Khan Yeah, So I mean, I haven’t read that. And that that sounds hyperbolic to me, which is good.

Nish Kumar Thank God.

Tessa Khan . Yeah. And I think there are a few different reasons for that. First of all, you know, I mean, the US isn’t the entirety of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions. It’s about a fifth I. Think about 20%. But, you know, I mean, I think there are a couple of other factors at play. The first is that regardless of who is in power in the U.S. for the next four years, the economic momentum behind the energy transition is real. And that is going to continue regardless of, as I said, who is president at any given moment. So the cost, for example, of solar panels has dropped by 80% in the last decade. Wind and batteries, which are crucial for energy storage, are also dropping and in price and growing exponentially in deployment. And those economic trends are here to stay. So, you know, there are aspects of this clean energy transition that have a huge amount of momentum behind that. I think the other thing that we don’t know about Trump’s presidency is how he’s going to respond to the fact that Biden in the last couple of years passed a really significant package of climate or clean energy legislation worth hundreds of billions of dollars that actually invested in manufacturing and created jobs and wealth in Republican constituencies. And that was sort of a deliberate move to protect in some ways the energy transition from the whims and vicissitudes of politics. And so, you know, query, I guess, how hard Trump is going to go in rolling back on benefits that actually his supporters are currently taking advantage of. But it’s ultimately true that this definitely vacates the stage in terms of global leadership for the UK to step up.

Nish Kumar We’re number one. Hypothetically, if we take advantage of the current situation, we could be number one. We could be number one.

Tessa Khan I’ll take it.

Coco Khan I mean, I’ll take you. You can’t have a conversation about climate and have an uplifting point these days, and you just gave me one. So now I have a reason to be a bit more happy with my strange existence on this planet. So just coming back to Rosebank, the legal challenge was given the go ahead just a few weeks ago. What’s the next steps? Are you feeling confident? I mean, hearing you talk there, it feels like the winds of change are here in the UK. I mean, yeah. How are you feeling about the case?

Tessa Khan I always feel good about the cases involved in facts. I’ve been proven wrong in the past. On this occasion, I genuinely think and I think it’s because, as I said, the government actually agrees with us, but the decision was unlawfully made. So we’ve just had a hearing in a court in Edinburgh that hearings just concluded. We’re now waiting for a decision from the court, which we hope will be that the decision was unlawful and therefore the oil field won’t go ahead. But inevitably, the oil and gas companies who have just gotten used to getting their way in terms of pushing this fields through, we think they’re going to still try to move ahead with Rosebank, even if the court says it was an unlawful decision. And that’s why we still think there’s a huge role for all of us to play, as in everyone in the public, to make it clear that we don’t want this study oil field. It’s a terrible deal for the British people. All it’s doing is making these unbelievably wealthy oil and gas companies richer, and we demand better. So there’s still, I think, a lot of work to do to convey that clearly.

Nish Kumar I feel weirdly optimistic.

Coco Khan Yeah, I know.

Tessa Khan It’s not often we have a climate conversation that ends with me thinking, the world isn’t going to fucking blow up. And how important is it to push back against hopelessness? Because like, especially in the wake of the Trump election and what the threat that he constitutes to our way of life, especially on the subject of climate. How important is it to push back against sort of despair on this issue?

Tessa Khan Look, you know, I think it’s completely human to be pretty down about recent developments, including but not limited to Trump being elected. But I think that we still have a huge amount of agency in deciding what our future looks like. And there is huge amounts to play for, and especially in the UK. I will say that the oil and gas industry is in a more vulnerable position. You know, we have changed the conversation around oil and gas in this country in a way that has never happened before. And that’s the reason that this government has decided not to give out new exploration licenses for oil and gas. You know, it’s despite the massive PR machine that that industry has. People are understanding that it is a profiteering industry that is only interested in its bottom line and it’s not interested in doing the right thing by us. And. We are in a really crucial moment for, I think, waiting lists for it. And we all have a role to play in it. So, you know, I really think that, as I said, we’ve got a tremendous amount of agency in deciding what our future looks like.

Coco Khan Tessa Khan, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK.

Tessa Khan Thank you so much for having me.

Coco Khan So I think we can agree that it was great to hear some positivity when we’re discussing the climate crisis. If you want another injection of hope, by the way, check out this week’s Pod Save The World, where Tommy and Ben sat down with Malala Yousafzai, the global icon for girls education. She famously survived a Taliban attack in 2012.

Nish Kumar In this rare interview, Malala reflects on what happened when the Taliban retook Afghanistan in 2021. She shares her perspective on the fall of Kabul and the women’s protest movement that followed.

Coco Khan Plus, she discusses the documentary she executive produced about Afghan women and what keeps her fighting for women and girls rights. Listen now on the Pod Save The World feed or watch the full interview on YouTube.

Nish Kumar And that’s it. Thanks for listening to Pod Save the U.K. And we want to hear your thoughts. Email us PSUK@ReducedListening.co.UK.

Coco Khan Don’t forget to follow Pod Save the UK on Instagram TikTok and Twitter. And if you want more of us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel.

Nish Kumar Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.

Coco Khan Thanks to senior producer James Tindale, assistant producer Mae Robson and our multitrack fellow Derek Armor.

Nish Kumar Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

Coco Khan Thanks to our engineers Evie Shelburne and James Reynolds. The head of production is Dan Jackson.

Nish Kumar The executive producers are Anoushka Sharma, Louise Cotton and Madeline Herringer with additional support from Ari Schwartz.

Coco Khan And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts.

[AD]