Booked and Busy: How to Slow Down and Address your Trauma | Crooked Media
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December 09, 2022
Booked and Busy: How to Slow Down and Address your Trauma

In This Episode

Have you ever asked yourself, “why am I always so busy?” If so, there may be something or some feelings you’re avoiding. The ladies of Imani State of Mind are slowing things down to identify your traumas, so you can begin to heal from them.




[AD BREAK] [music break]


Dr. Imani Walker: Hey, everybody, welcome to Imani State of Mind. I’m Dr. Imani. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And I’m Meg Scoop. How are you? 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m good. I’m good. Um. I actually have been doing great. Um. Well, let me let me back up a little bit. I was I wasn’t really outside a lot this past week because it is still kind of raining in L.A. and– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah, same here. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –this morning I was like, okay, you got to leave the house. Like like I know that my mood gets kind of weird um and I get kind of like, you know, like, doubtful. Like, what if nobody likes me? What if like blah, blah, blah. So I was like, you know what, I need to go outside and go hiking. So me and my dog went and she was looking kind of like sad too. So we went outside and–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Aw ok. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –now I’m like, yay! [laughter] Like I’m super excited– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I love it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –about really nothing. Just the fact that it’s like a new day, um but I’m good. How are you? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I’m good, girl. It’s it’s same over here with the weather. It’s been like, rainy, but I love it. Like, it’s got a little chill in the air. Um. I put my Christmas decorations up, like, halfway because I don’t really– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Nice. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –like decorating, but I feel like I have little kids, so, like, let me try–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –to do something for them. But, girl. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: If you look at my tree, it is like half fluffed. And the other half I gave up on. Half of it got ornaments. The other half I was like ugh. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Ugh. 


Dr. Imani Walker: That was me. [laugh] I’m not doing trees like my son, Idris is 15. I’m like–


Meg Scoop Thomas: See yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I, you. I’m gonna give you some money. And he already knows that. And–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Ooo. I love–


Dr. Imani Walker: –Merry Christmas. And whatever.


Meg Scoop Thomas: I can’t wait for that girl. I can’t wait for those days. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Okay. Here go your money–


Dr. Imani Walker: No it’s–


Meg Scoop Thomas: –no decorations. That’s it. [laughing]


Dr. Imani Walker: For real. No, it’s coming. It’s coming, it’s coming. Um. It’s coming for sure. And it’s also, what else is coming? The holidays are coming, and I don’t know if well, I kind of feel like I do know. Thanksgiving came and went, and ever since then, my brain has been on automatic pilot. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. Same.


Dr. Imani Walker: Which has been great. I mean, I still have stuff to do, but I’m just kind of like whatever. Like, honestly, I’m not going to be really into it. And when I say it, I mean like being productive. Until the second week of January, so I’m like, whatever I say between now and then, like I feel like I could be forgiven for. Um. But, but, but in any case, Um I’ve also just been kind of doing a lot of reflecting. Are you like a resolution person? Like New Year’s resolutions? Or more like intentions? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Um I think I’ve been both. To me, it varies from year to year. But I don’t like doing resolutions because ah I’ll be honest, I don’t ever reach them. Okay. So. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Um [laughter]


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I probably just should just, you know, make monthly goals instead of a yearly goal. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people, it’s it’s always, I used to always get irritated because I used to go to the gym a lot. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And in the beginning of the year. You know, like I was I was basically at the gym every day. And when at the beginning of the year, I would just be like, oh my God, there are all these people here that like, by the by, like day ten, like January 10th, gone. They all gone like you know what. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I tried. I tried. So usually resolutions are kind of silly. I’m somebody who’s more intentional, like, I like making it, like, intentions. So I think my intention for 2023 is basically going to be like I’m like, I can do bad by myself. And also, if it’s cost me my peace, it’s too expensive. And– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: There you go. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. And exactly. And I say that because I’m somebody who has notoriously pretty much up until the pandemic happened and and that made me have to stop. I’m somebody who really I just couldn’t stay still, like I– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And and I would always be like, oh, I’m so tired. I’m so this, I’m so that. Like, I wish I could take a break and then I would take a break and then legit. I remember going on vacation to Cancun and I was I was married at the time. And so my husband was like, you know, he was like, so what you want to do today? I was like, I’m going to go kayaking and snorkeling. Do you want to go? And he was like, no, I don’t want to go. Like, I’m on vacation. I had a great time, my arms were very tired and I felt very productive. But it was almost like I had to do something in order to exhaust myself. So–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right, right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: What we’re going to be talking about today, honestly, is, are you the kind of person that can’t sit still? Now, we all know the holiday season is really an easy time to stay booked and busy. Shouts out to Real Housewives of Atlanta. And that’s really because being booked and busy means that we can collectively avoid facing our feelings or our thoughts on issues that we’re all struggling with. So we’re going to talk about how staying busy can actually be a response to trauma. It can actually be uh what can be thought of as a coping mechanism. So that being said, we’re going to move on to one of my favorite topics or one of my favorite segments of the show, which is current events. Now, Meg you start first because I know you have something hot and juicy to discuss for this week’s current events. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Girl. Yeah. So this week, if you’re, if you’re a Good Morning America person, uh you heard in the news that the co-anchors, T.J. Holmes and Amy Robach are have been having an affair. And I don’t know who hired the paparazzi or private investigators to take these pictures, but honey, they just have been– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Girl. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –canoodling all around New York, okay? They’ve been at the bar together, drinking. She went to the hospital for some kind of appointment. He was in the front waiting for her. They’ve been going to each others– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Really? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –apartments. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I didn’t see the hospital one. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. [indistinct] Girl. The paparazzi was busy, okay? Like they went I think into her apartment one evening, and only he came out the next morning with his duffel bag, like [laugh] they been kicking it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And they went on vacation to– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay T.J. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –upstate New York right after Thanksgiving. Um. Yeah, they went on a little vacation to the mountains, and he was patting her butt and they got him– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –on camera. I’m like, Yo, they’ve been out here. And what’s crazy is um I think Amy, her divorce to her husband was finalized recently. Um. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Mm hmm. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: T.J. his, there is no divorce on the table that we know of. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Um. His wife– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –actually his wife actually posted a picture of him in August. They spent his birthday together [cough] um and I think earlier, what last year coup– was it last year? Couple of years ago, he posted about how like he love his wife and they been together for ten years and he like, she’s put up with me. She’s amazing. He had all these glowing things to say. And then fast forward, that ain’t it any more because he out here– 


Dr. Imani Walker: No. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –with his co-host. Well. But–


Dr. Imani Walker: Here’s the other thing. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –here’s the thing. They’ve been. You you would. Okay. Go ahead. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No, no. I was just going to say the other thing is that so not only are they no longer on Good Morning America three, the third hour, but part of it has to do with the fact that I mean, yes, this the but the the the the relationship I’m not going to say affair because from what I understand, T.J. Holmes and Amy Robach had told they each told their spouses back in August and Amy Robach has not been wearing her wedding ring since then. So I think like for us, the public, this is new. But for like them, they’re like you like we we we were not as raggedy with it as it looks. It’s just that y’all didn’t know. Part of them not being on the third hour of Good Morning America is because he had an affair with someone on like a producer, like five years ago– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –or something. Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: It’s just– 


Dr. Imani Walker: So I was like– [banter] You know his name’s Loutelious right? You know, his real name is Loutelious. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: What kind of name? That sound like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Girl. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –a cheater name. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay, look, [laughter] his name is Loutelious. Loutelious Holmes Junior. Okay. And he is from–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh my gosh. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –West Memphis, Arkansas. Okay. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: He yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So I was like, oooh, lil country Loutelious I see you out here. I see you out here just getting all just raggedy in New York City. He like girl–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh, and and he and they’re, they’ve been suspended but they’re not they’ll be back. I’m pretty sure they’ll– 


Dr. Imani Walker: They’ll be back. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –be back because um ABC said that, you know, like there are two consenting adults of same– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –like status and one’s not a higher rank than–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –the other. So it’s kind of like we’re not going to do anything about that. However, when you report the news, you can’t become the news and that’s what’s happening. So I think they’re just waiting–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –until all of this dies down and then we’ll see them back um on TV again. But I’m laughing because to be honest with you, look, this ain’t gonna last y’all. Like, I’m gonna be honest. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Well– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Because– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Listen. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: No let me, wait, let me tell you why– 


Dr. Imani Walker: I don’t know. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –Imani. Let me tell you why Imani. Because of the messiness– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –surrounding this. Number one, you just mentioned that he was having an affair with one with a producer, right? Well, that producer allegedly was really good friends with Amy. And Amy knew what was going on. She was like covering up. I think there was a from what I read, there allegedly was some like indiscretion she’s covered up so that his wife wouldn’t find out. Right. Because that apparently was her friend that he had an affair with. Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Ugh. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: So if you know that about somebody. You lose them how you get them. And on top of that, her daughter was babysitting his daughter. As a woman, if I–


Dr. Imani Walker: Ugh. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –if you’re going to have some kind of relationship with my husband, why on earth would you over be over here allowing your daughter to watch my daughter? Like, just keep that over there. So the messiness of this situation, I’m telling you, it’s not going to last. And I’m laughing because now not only are y’all, it’s cute right now, right. Because y’all got–


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s cute. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –good chemistry. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Or it was. It was. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Y’all having fun. But now that–


Dr. Imani Walker: It was cute when it was a secret. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Thank you. And now that everybody knows and now that you know, you have brought this kind of like shame upon your to be ex wife, your children know about it like it’s not fun no more. And guess what? Y’all got to work together every single day. This ain’t, this is not going to last. So I’m just like, eh well, hope it was fun. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Hope it was worth it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m gonna say, I’m gonna say two things. I’m going to say two things. One is now granted what you just the first. Okay. What you just told me about the producer and Amy Robach like being friends and Amy was basically like you said, Amy Robach was covering for the producer? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. Like from what I, no there was like an incident or something and she kind of was like uh like basically she, she covered whatever the indiscretion was. I don’t know if his wife was about to find out about him and the producer, but she– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –was just like, you know. So you over here acting like a friend.


Dr. Imani Walker: Well his wife is a lawyer. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, his wife is a lawyer. So, you know, she was like, oh, for real, you [?] and do this research. But honestly, okay, here’s the here’s the first thing. One is you don’t don’t smash the homie. Shouts to Ray J. Don’t smash the homie. Like, that’s just like that’s kind of how I felt about the whole. I mean, it’s it’s old news. They already got married, but like the whole issue with Porsha and her new husband. I get that when it comes to being on a reality show that like, you know, that they say y’all friends, y’all ain’t really friends, you just met them like the day before. I get it. But it’s just like it’s like of all the people in the world that you could have, like, mess around with. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like, it’s just, I don’t know, I’m just kind of like, come on Loutelious. Like. And it’s not and it’s not. It’s not his fault. It’s not just his fault because Amy, you know, Amy was ten toes down for some Loutelious too. But um I’m just kind of like, I mean, y’all got I mean, y’all are like celebrities, basically. Like, y’all could be fucking with anybody, and you chose like, whatever. Like, that’s none of my business. But here’s what I will say. There is a strong likelihood that they may not stay together and I’m I’m with you on that. But remember that Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski from Morning Joe on MSNBC, they was co host for years and years and years. Now they didn’t do it all raggedy and you know, just, you know, uh having like private investigators following them and all that. Like they did it in stages and it was obvious that they had told, you know, MSNBC, like, okay, we’re a couple now da da da da da and then they got married. But I don’t know. I mean, honestly. Hey, what was that song? Where um uh Pebbles and Babyface song My Love Makes Things Happen? Love can make things happen? I mean, you never know you never know. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Girl this look like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: So.


Meg Scoop Thomas: –lust to me so. I mean, they may go on–


Dr. Imani Walker: I mean it– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –for a while, [laugh] but I just– 


Dr. Imani Walker: It might. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: To me the messiness behind it is the reason why I’m like, this is not going to work. I’m not saying that people who don’t, you know, host shows together, who have real chemistry, won’t like that they couldn’t work, I’m saying, because of–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –the messiness factor. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Is the reason why I’m like, oh, this ain’t gonna last. But I mean, they may, a year or two, but after a while. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mm mmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Maybe. Maybe. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mmm mm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Plus, I mean, he’s not exactly the most faithful person. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And that’s what I’m–


Dr. Imani Walker: You know. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –saying, you know about his– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –affairs, and I’m sure they over here talking about we didn’t start anything until we both were out of their relationship. I find that hard to believe considering– 


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s hard to believe. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You see her every day. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Like y’all might not have been out and about, but there was something that was brewing before y’all left y’all’s spouses. So just the whole messiness of it, I’m saying. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I don’t know if it’ll last because, you know, you guys didn’t tell the network, all this stuff. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. Yeah. I mean, and sometimes, I mean, in a lot of ways, it’s, you know, you what do they say? You lose them how you got them? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Boom. That’s exactly what I was thinking. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah so. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And and there was somebody had said something actually, when this story first broke and I was like, yo that’s hilarious. They were talking to some guests. I think it was like a doctor and then and [laugh] and then Amy was like, yeah because, you know, T.J. got an ingrown toenail and blah blah, like something that a like your wife would say, right? Like, you know, my husband. You you know, you know you got an ingrown. She said something like that. And– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like bitch, why do you know he got an ingrown toenail? Was it in your mouth?


Meg Scoop Thomas: And, right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: What are you doing?


Meg Scoop Thomas: So that was number one and and like [laughter] the girl who wrote who tweeted this was like I remember watching that and I was like, that’s weird. Like, why do you know that? And she said she had noticed T.J.’s face was kind of like, like, embarrassed, like, why would you– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah like bitch. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –tell my business? So. So that it changes the dynamic on screen. I don’t know if we’re going to like this as much when we see them, like on camera acting like they’re not a couple. Because I, I find it hard to believe that they would. The way GMA is set up, I find it hard to believe that he’ll be like, hey, honey, like toss it to you? You know what I mean? [laughing] [banter] 


Dr. Imani Walker: I think I mean, I think it could happen. I think it could happen. But I also but I also have seen situations like when I used to work at this hospital um years ago, there were two doctors who we didn’t know they were married for years. And then even when she had a baby, like we didn’t know until–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh to each other? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, they were married to each other like for a while and they, they, because they would be like, hello, doctor whatever. And she’d be like, hello, da da like no– I mean, like nothing. Like I never saw them together. And when they would be, you know, when they would be around each other they’d be like, okay, you know, like, okay, I’m at work, like, whatever. And then they had like, so she, she had a baby and it wasn’t until like they sent the announc– like the little announcement, it was like, you know, me and so-and-so and I was like, wow, that’s interesting because that man got the same name as um I was like, oh, shit. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: As you. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I was like damn, y’all had a baby? I was like oh my God. I’m like does does he know? And then I and then I was, people was like, Imani, they married. And I was like, oh. But I kind of, I don’t, I, I don’t shit where I eat. Like, I don’t, I’ve never dated anybody that I’ve worked with. Like, the closest I came was like maybe dating somebody that I was at the same. Like, I dated one person, okay two. Um when I was like at a certain gym. But like outside of that, I’m like, I don’t, I don’t want to, like, that’s my personal life is, is outside of where I commiserate. So. Um. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But speaking of raggedy, um you know that um, you know, everybody’s former favorite dad, Bill Cosby, running around here with more uh allegations. First of all, that man is 85. I’m like, I don’t. Okay. And I say that to say I’m not saying like leave him alone. I’m saying this man is 85 and he cannot outrun these allegations. I don’t know what kind of magical sorcery he’s going to try to pull or his lawyers are going to try to pull or the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, because that’s how he got off the last time. I don’t know what type of magical sorcery they’re going to try to pull um to make this go away. But I’m just like, here it go. Bill Cosby, 85. Um, are, he’s being sued again by five women, um one of them one of uh Lili Bernard. I remember from a documentary that I saw. Um. Yeah, she played Mrs. Minnifield on The Cosby Show. There it is. And I keep I’ve said this to as many people as possible. I’m like, when all this stuff came out, like years ago, I was like, this raggedy dude had the gall to be an ob gyn on The Cosby Show and then have his practice be in the basement of his house. I was like, that’s that’s straight. Like, not not that he’s a serial killer. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: [indistinct] 


Dr. Imani Walker: But you know how you know how people leave clues like they be leaving clues? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m like, the clues. I mean, I was like, that is disgusting. But anyway, Bill Cosby, you raggedy. And I just I don’t know.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Let this just be a lesson. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I mean. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That no matter what you do, the what you do in the dark will come out in the light. It don’t matter if you 85. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It don’t. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: What you have done will come out. So you just got to be very aware of that. Don’t think that you got away with it. Just– 


Dr. Imani Walker: I know. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –you need to be preparing yourself for when people find out about it because it will happen. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Well, also, yeah, because Tory Lanez’s got a new felony charge in the, you know, the case he has, um you know, with Megan Thee Stallion because he shot her in the foot. Um. But whatever. I don’t. Ugh. [sigh] Megan, we love you for so many reasons. Um. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Also, your mental health website is killing it. But I’m just like god, like Tory Lanez is not only is he really, really, really tiny, but he’s really, really–


Meg Scoop Thomas: He is small. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –really just like, ugh, it’s like legit. It’s like Bill Cosby. Um. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: [laugh] Tory Lanez? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Whose a singer? It’s like Bill Cosby, who’s the singer that that sounds like um Trey Songz? He sounds like a like a like a sheep when he sings, it’s like Bill Cosby, Trey Songz. And then Tory Lanez. Like right now, like in the order of like people who are not in jail, who need to be like that’s– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: [laughing] Oh my gosh. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –that’s my order. Um. And any, because because R Kelly gone. Um. Uh. What’s his name? Jeffrey um Weinstein. Is that his name? Jeffrey Weinstein?


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh uh Epstein. Oh, no, no, no not Epstein. Oh gosh. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No no. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: He’s gone. Or is that who you’re meaning? Jeffrey Epstein? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Jeffrey Jeffrey Epstein is gone. But I’m talking about Weinstein. He’s he well he– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh okay yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –he in jail and he on trial again and he ain’t going nowhere, so whatever. Anyway, it’s gross. Um. Anyway. Current events. What a week. And look, look, look you guys, we didn’t even talk about Kanye. Look at that. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oooh. Yay.


Dr. Imani Walker: Because there’s nothing to talk about. We did it. Um. I mean, there are things to talk about, but I ain’t talking about that. He’s so trifling. If you’re loving the show, though, if you’re loving this show, please let us know by rating the show on your favorite podcast app. Okay.


Meg Scoop Thomas: We have so much to talk about, so let’s start the show. [music break]


Dr. Imani Walker: Yay. Okay, so we want to know what’s on your mind. What are you guys struggling with? We love giving our professional and not so professional advice. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s right. It’s time for Ask Dr. Imani anything. And our first letter today comes from Ceci. Hey girl. Here’s what she had to say. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Hey. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Dear Dr. Imani and Meg. Okay. Before I say what I want to say, let me give a disclaimer. I love my husband. However, that man is a complete fuck up. [laughter] Like if liability was a person, it would be his ass. He has wrecked six cars in the last two years. Tried to fix our bathroom toilet and completely messed up our plumbing. Last but not least, he caught himself polishing our floors but used the wrong cleaner and stripped our floors. Our insurance is sky high now from all his accidents and the amount of money we have lost cleaning up his mess has depleted our savings. I love that man, but I need him to basically not touch or try to do a thing. I feel he must be going through something psychological or emotional because he wasn’t always a fuck up. I can’t afford another incident for my husband. I have no idea how to help him get through whatever is distracting him mentally. What do you ladies think I need to say to my husband to get him back on track without hurting his feelings? 


Dr. Imani Walker: [laughing] Girl. Oh, my God. This letter is wild. This is–


Meg Scoop Thomas: I love Ceci loving her husband. You love him girl. You do love him.


Dr. Imani Walker: I do. You girl, you just love your little just. I mean, I hate to say it. You just love your little raggedy husband. He just out here just breaking shit. You know who it kind of sound like? What what was that man’s name like, Mr. Bean? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh, yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Just just running around just messing up stuff. Just breaking shit. Just. Ceci, listen, I. We we can tell you love your husband. You love the hell up. You love the hell out of your husband. And that’s that’s beautiful. Um. Here’s the thing. Uh. So let me see. So I don’t know when this all started, but it it sounds like at at the very least, you mentioned that he wrecked six cars in the last two years. Um. So I don’t know if this started two years ago. I don’t know if this is something that he’s always and I don’t want to say that he’s clumsy because this isn’t really clumsiness. This is like and it’s not forgetfulness. Like-


Meg Scoop Thomas: Carelessness. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s carelessness. And what what I’m really what I’m really focusing on, honestly, is the fact that he’s wrecked six cars in the last two years. Um. I’m just wondering, like. I mean, your husband seems motivated to do the things that that he feels need to be done around the house, but like the wrecking the cars thing, like is is like, is your husband, does he drink? Do you think that he’s maybe like abusing something? Like six cars in two years is a lot like that’s a lot. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: This I have to ask this because that’s six, first of all six cars. Y’all kept getting car after car after car for six years. Means y’all– 


Dr. Imani Walker: After two cars I’m like, you taking the bus. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. Meaning y’all have some kind of money. My my question is, is it coming from you Ceci or him? Because if it’s coming from him, men usually tend to be a little more careful about stuff like that because it hurts they pockets. Right? If he keeps doing it, he keeps stripping the floor. Messing the floors up, messing the plumbing up. Whose pocket is this hurting? Is it yours? Cause I feel like if it hurt his. He’d be like, you know what? I’m not doing this no more. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: So is it and and is it because he doesn’t, did he lose a job? He’s got extra time? He’s trying to compensate. Like, is that part of it? I think there’s more to the story that we need to know. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Mm hmm. Yeah. I, yeah honestly. Um. I mean the other thing may just be Ceci that like, you know, is your, is your husband is, is, he is he somehow being so clumsy and just not careful because he has some sort of like a mental issue. I mean, to so to answer your question, how what do you what do we think you need to say to get him back on track without hurting his feelings? I mean, honestly, I don’t I really wouldn’t be so much concerned about not hurting his feelings. I’d be more more so concerned about him not like fucking up y’alls shit. Like, like legit. Like like you already fucked up six cars, the floor, the plumbing, like feelings at this point. I mean, I’m just saying personally, like, I can’t speak for you or for Meg, but personally I’m just like all this money that you cost. Like, I don’t care about your feelings no more like you either you like you need to get help or something. But but I think that, you know, I would I would just say to him like, you know, maybe you might want to, like, just talk to somebody. And I’m not saying that he necessarily, like, has a, you know, mental illness or has any symptoms, but whatever is going on, like it may be some it may be something mental illness, you know, God forbid it’s something like that’s more organic. I don’t know how old he is. I don’t you know, I don’t know. Like I’m like dementia? I don’t know what’s going on. I don’t know. But it’s there’s I think the main thing Ceci is that you just have to, like, talk to him and say, like, I think you should see a doctor, whether it’s like mental and also like, you know, an internist, something at the very beginning just so we can kind of figure out like what is going on, like what’s going on. And–. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, that, that’s, that’s what I would say because there’s a lot that that we just don’t know. From your letter. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And and then wait. I just actually caught this uh this line. Ceci says I can’t afford another incident for my husband, so I don’t know if that. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Nessari– I think that might be some clues as to like maybe that’s partially why because he’s not financially responsible for any of these things. So it’s kind of like eh whatever. Um.


Dr. Imani Walker: Please. I would [?].


Meg Scoop Thomas: I hope that’s not the case. [banter] If that’s the case, nah nah bro you you want to bust then if that’s the case. You are the–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –Bust. 


Dr. Imani Walker: My money? Nah. No. Plumbing, floors, cars? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Six? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And I think. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, no. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. And I think one thing you didn’t mention was what have you not been able to do because y’all don’t have the money because it’s been– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –used for all of the things he’s messed up. Maybe that is something that you guys can focus on. Maybe y’all can’t go to Di– take the kids to Disney World, like you said, or maybe, you know, you can’t go on that vacation y’all wanted to go to on your anniversary or maybe, you know, y’all can’t go to the movies this weekend because, like, you’re trying to build the savings back up. I think that’s one thing that you guys can probably talk about is what you’re not able to do as a result of the things that he’s been wanting to mess or he has been messing up. That might– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You know, put it in perspective for him, like, oh yeah, I do need to be a little more careful about this. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. And also I just, I mean, I know that when it comes to I’m not going to say all heterosexual men, but when it comes to like, you know, let’s say, you know, cis heterosexual men, like when it comes to repairs in the house, they, you know, for for some of them, they’re like yo, I can do this, I can do this. I usually will say, okay, like, let’s try it your way. And then if if you fix it, great. If not, like we’re calling somebody. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And then but but after this many times I’d be like, oh, we need the floors polished. Like we about   to call somebody like I’m like you and appliances, you and cars, like it’s it’s the car thing that’s really just like because it’s one thing to, you know, mess with the plumbing or like strip the floors, but like a car is, you know, you can it can be like a mortality situation. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: With cars.


Meg Scoop Thomas: And then the fact that there’s six. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Six. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: In two years, that’s a lot. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Yikes. So um I don’t know, I honestly Ceci, I just think that you need to just be honest with him. I mean, it sounds like you love him to death and and if it’s coming from a loving place, I don’t think that he would be, you know, offended. And if he is, then I think that’s a different matter. Um. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But, you know, let us know, like for real. Like write us back because there’s a lot missing and and I feel like I can’t really give you a good answer because there’s there’s a lot going on. So write us back and let us know, like, what’s, you know, like, what, what, what, what is going to like  if you went to the doctor, like what did the doctor say? What did your husband say when you brought it up? Just let us know or give us some background something. So– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Um. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: In any case, let’s move on to the next letter. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes, it comes from Benita. Hello, Benita. She says, hey, Dr. Imani and Meg, I have a good job. But thinking about risking it all for love. I need you all to either talk me out of it or give me your approval to go for it. My company has a no dating policy, but me and my supervisor are definitely feeling each other. His energy’s electrifying. He did tell me he felt that same electric energy about me when I enter a room. He told me he would never pursue anything with me as long as we both worked at the company because he wouldn’t want to risk his career plan. I have always been about my career and always put love on the back burner. I don’t want to do that anymore. I’m 45, never married and think my supervisor is supposed to be my person. Should I quit my job for a chance at love? What say you, Imani? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Um. Okay, so here’s what I would say. Let’s see, you’re 45. You’ve never been married. And it sounds like that’s something you want to do. And that’s, you know, that’s that’s a good thing. Um. I mean, look, you sometimes people find love in the strangest of places. You know what I mean? I, I don’t know if I would. Here’s what I would do. I wouldn’t necessarily be like, I got to quit my job. I got to get out of here so we can be together. But I definitely would discuss with him, like, these are the ground rules. Like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Let’s like maybe we can go out on a couple dates, you know, and if we feel that it’s becoming more serious then one of us, because it doesn’t necessarily have to be you, but one of us can decide to start, you know, the headhunting process or get in touch with a headhunter and start looking for, you know, another position. Um.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Because I’m like I mean, I’m like you. Like I don’t I don’t shit where I eat. Like, I’ve never met anybody at my job. Like, like I’m just when I’m at work, I’m at work. Like, I don’t I’m busy. Like, I’m not thinking about what’s going on under your clothes. It’s just it’s just odd to me. Um. But if this is somebody that you really connect with, I think that you guys should really create, like, a stepwise plan um so that it’s not it so that it’s not. It doesn’t turn into something like dramatic. And also so that no one ends up with regrets. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah, that’s the– 


Dr. Imani Walker: –cause if it’s like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –big piece. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Because if it’s like, oh, I’m going to quit my job, you know, like, let’s say you guys, you know, and you quit your job, you end up being together, you get find a new job. It’s not what you want. You’re going to end up looking at him angry. So you might want to decide like who which, you know, which one of us provided that you go on a couple of dates and you’re like, okay, this could be serious. Then I’d be like, okay, like let’s just pause and let’s create a game plan. Like, which one of us really loves this job more. Like which one of us or which one of us is it more beneficial for to stay at this company? Like maybe– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I feel like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: –your supervisor– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –that I feel like she already answered that. I feel like she said it– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Did she? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –was him. That’s why. Well, she says that it’s– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh oh oh. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –basic– he’s not, he’s not going to risk it all because he has some career plan with it. So it’s on her to kind of– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –like either stay here and we don’t date or leave. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Um.


Meg Scoop Thomas: It’s so it’s kind of like she it’s it’s a little it’s hard. I get it because it’s like it’s like she has to take the risk and not him. And he’s already said– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –he’s not going to date her until one of them doesn’t work there and he ain’t risking it, which basically means she gotta leave. And I don’t know if that’s [?]– 


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s that’s too much. That’s too much in the beginning. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: It’s a little unfair. Now, unless I would say this unless unless you’re 45, you said your your career’s always been important to you. So I’m assuming you’re not in like a low level position at this point in your career. It might be easy for you to find another job somewhere else considering what you do like what if you’re in HR? You know, you’re head of HR. Maybe it’s easy for you to find another HR job. So this is nothing for you to work somewhere else. If that’s the case, girl, leave. Okay? Just leave.


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah leave. Leave leave leave.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Now if I hope. I hope you don’t really like your job that much. And you go to another job that you do like because it would suck to be the opposite. Where you love you love this job and you left for love and now you got a job that you hate. So you got to keep that in mind as well. But I mean, you know, go for it. Why not? As long you–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah.


Meg Scoop Thomas: –as long as you in a career that’s, like, easily transferable. Now, if you have a job, you can’t find a job elsewhere. I don’t know if you should leave. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, yeah. I mean. I don’t know. I feel like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Would you, would you leave Imani? If this was your situation, would you leave? If you and Peter worked together. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh I would leave because I love Peter. [laughter] 


Meg Scoop Thomas: See! 


Dr. Imani Walker: I do. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: But you also–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah I mean–


Meg Scoop Thomas: –know how y’all are– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –Y’all are together. She. She doesn’t even. He didn’t even say that he– 


Dr. Imani Walker: She don’t know. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –would definitely be. He he just would never pursue anything. So she don’t even know if they’re going to be a couple. Like that’s a lot to risk. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Honestly, I might just start looking for other jobs because it it still might be like it’s like, okay, we have this interest. You came at me like, well I can’t leave. It’s just it’s just it’s a it’s an unfair situation for her to be in. So I might just start looking to leave anyway, just because it’s like, you know what? Let’s create some distance between myself and this job. I’ll leave. Not necessarily for you, but just because I need to figure out, like first of all, how do I feel about you? Second of all, how do I feel about being put in this position where basically you’re telling me that this is my decision. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And if you still like him, then you can get a whole other job and then you can, you know, decide to date him. So I wouldn’t, would I leave? I would probably seriously consider leaving, but not for him. I would leave just because it’s like I don’t really want to, like, date nobody I work– this is me talking, Imani. Not like me as um Benita. It’s like. I don’t date people I work with, but I do like you. But you’ve given me this situation. You’ve given me this dilemma where I can’t like you’re not leaving. So I can’t continue– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Exactly, exactly. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –to have an interest in you and work with you. So let me just break out. And then– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: If something materializes or if we continue to dig each other, then we can do that. And then you don’t even have to deal with, you know, no dating policies or being at the same job and that kind of a thing. So that’s what that’s what I would do. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So, yes. Leave.


Meg Scoop Thomas: I like it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But not for him. [laughter] Not for him. Not for him.


Meg Scoop Thomas: For sure. Not for him. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like for real. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Not for him. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Don’t leave for him. Yeah. And, you know, sometimes listen and he might be like, ooh, he might be like telling his friends, like, you know, well like, she left she left for me so and it’s like, you know, and I didn’t. I did not leave for you. I left for me. And um because yeah, like I said, like, like what me and Meg said earlier, like, you don’t want to, you don’t want to start a relationship with like, a regret meter, you know, like I left, I left the job for you, and I hate this new job, and and you–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Exactly. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –getting on my nerves today. So– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –now I don’t want to even talk like it’s it’s. Yeah, no, it’s too. It’s too much it’s too much. So that that’s what. So me and Meg say you should leave, but not for him. Okay, so– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: There you go girl. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So, yeah. So there you go. So thank you, Ceci and thank you, Benita, for submitting y’all’s questions. I hope that we were able to help. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And if you have a question or a problem centered around your mental health and you want our help, please send your emails to You can also text or leave us a voicemail at 818-252-9462. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. So let’s switch gears, you guys. We’re going to take a really quick break. But after the break, we’re taking a deep dive into how being booked and busy might just be a bandaid on a bigger issue. We’re going to slow it down in order to identify our personal traumas right after the break. [music break] Okay. It’s time to get into this deep dive. Every body responds differently to trauma. Everybody. So it obviously depends on what the traumatic experience was and how long the trauma went on for. But unprocessed trauma can really affect your physical and mental health. You might not even realize that staying busy is a trauma response. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And I’m sure many of us haven’t even realized when we’re using our social calendars to avoid our bigger issues because I’ve done it several times. 


Dr. Imani Walker: [?]. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: So, Dr. Imani, now that you’ve pointed it out, what’s the severity of avoiding [baby sound in background] processing trauma? And as you can hear my baby in the background, she’s trying to agree. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I know. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: With how she–


Dr. Imani Walker: She like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –process trauma.


Dr. Imani Walker: She like girl I’m booked and busy it is December. Got these presents. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: She like she got to stay she got to keep uh Benita husband away from these cars. Girl. Um. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: See. 


Dr. Imani Walker: [laughing] So, okay. So the thing about staying busy, staying booked and busy um is that a lot of it is really tied to our self-worth, and I can definitely attest to that. Meg I’m sure you can attest to it too, because when you’re somebody who I’ll just I’ll use myself as an example because it’s easiest. I love a checklist. I love a checklist. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Ooh, yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, my God. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I do too. Marking it off gives me so much like joy. Like ah!


Dr. Imani Walker: Listen. I love a checklist. I was trying to find my notepad in here that has oh, yeah, my notepad actually has like pre like bo– like boxes that are already printed on the page. So I’m just like, mm hmm check. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Mm hmm Check, mm hmm check. Mm hmm. I love that. So when, when we experience trauma and it obviously depends on the kind and how long and how severe and it depends upon the person. But when we experience trauma, a lot of times trauma comes out of the blue, right? Because if it weren’t out of the blue, it wouldn’t be so traumatic. It wouldn’t be so um just upsetting to us. And so for some people that experience trauma, that upsetting experience, and also the fact that it was a surprise leads them to be or want to control the situation. Um. I can definitely attest to that. I do as much as I can to basically keep my anxiety in check so that I don’t start like freaking out about like how many dog treats has my dog had today and like [?] [laugh] I mean, girl, it can I mean, it can just it can spiral–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –out of control, but being booked and busy means that we can focus on something that we have to do or or honestly feel that we have to do. But a lot of times it is stuff that we have to do. And also it’s it’s tied to it’s like when you like girl, I’m sure you can agree when you make that little checkmark, you feel like, Oh my God, look, look what I did. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. Like, I’ve just accomplished so much– 


Dr. Imani Walker: So much. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –that day. It just feels– 


Dr. Imani Walker: So much. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –so good to be like. Ahh. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right, like–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mark that off the list. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, exactly. It’s and so that is tied to, like, our self-worth. And dare I say, that’s tied to like our dopamine response because that’s a reward. The reward is, ooh, I get to feel good about myself. And the task is, ooh, I just, you know, I took I’m making this up. I took out the garbage. I, you know, went and did, I don’t know, like walked my dog, whatever. Like it could be anything. Um. And so because that self-worth and that dopamine response is tied to the booked and busyness, it’s like a drug. And it’s like, you know, like, let’s like like anything like cocaine, like uh uh, not necessarily heroin, but like, yeah, let’s take like cocaine, for example, or even alcohol. It’s like, oh, like, I feel good. And if this makes me feel good and I feel better about myself, like let’s do more, let’s stay booked and busy more. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But being booked and busy–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –obviously is going to lead to you crashing. The problem, though, is that this is a society that we not only have crashed and burned, we crash and burned it to the ground and then built it back up, crashed it and burned it and kept doing it over and over again. We’re a society. Well, I would say especially Western culture, where we have the availability of stimulants, whether it’s coffee, whether it’s tea, like I was just drinking like green light matcha tea and lemonade because I mean, I don’t love caffeine, but I need to like actually kind of like stay awake today. Um. We’re a we’re a culture that we’re not short on stimulants. And even for some people, again, I will use myself as an example. A typical day for me legitimately, like five years ago, would go like this. I’d wake up at 4 a.m.. I would go to Barry’s boot camp at 5:00 in the morning. I would work out. I would go to the gym at six. I would workout again and then– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: What? 


Dr. Imani Walker: –I would go home. Yeah, I would go home. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh, my gosh. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, it was crazy. I would go home, um get my son ready for school, make his breakfast, make his lunch, drive him to school, and then come home and then be, like, exhausted. Why? Because I’ve been up for 6 hours now and be like, oh, I haven’t even, like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Dang. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –gone to work yet. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Wow. 


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s insanity. That is insanity. And I was doing this for years and that’s why I say–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Wait, were you doing. Was that like because you had health goals or nah?


Dr. Imani Walker: Um sure. Let’s say yes. But a lot of it was that I was depressed and I knew that like like working out made me feel awesome. And it also provided me with a respite because basically like back then, I would even say to myself, I would say, you know, when I’m working out, I can’t I can’t think of anything else. But I was working out so hard and a lot of that was because I was trying to just not only avoid my issues, but I just didn’t like I just I didn’t want to think about it. But then when obviously, you know, the workout ended for the day and I was I was obviously exhausted because I’ve been up since four. I’d get to work by like ten–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right, right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –or 11 and just be like, oh my God, I’m dying. Like, how am I going to do this? And then, you know, still work a full day. Um, I was trying to A.) escape my problems, B.), make myself feel better, but C.), I was just like I was killing myself. I was. I was killing myself. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s a lot. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s a lot. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s a lot. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s a lot. It’s a lot. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And I and the reason I the reason I asked you was it like because of health goals or was it because you were avoiding because I feel like this is something that like as we’re talking about this, this is something I’ve been accused of okay, being just busy. Right. My fiancee tells me that all the time. There’s always in my head. There’s always something that needs to be done. I don’t usually just sit. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And I got that from my mother. She’s a very busy person. She’s like, I never just catch her sitting. She’s always doing something. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And as I’ve become a mother, like I have noticed the same with myself even growing up, now that I’m thinking about it like I used to always be in every club, uh every– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Me too. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –you know after school or whatever. And then as I got to college, I was just involved in everything and– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Not me too. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You know. [laughter] Well I went and then when I at church, I’m in every like ministry. I’m like, it’s just seems to be something that I’ve noticed throughout my life. I’m always just busy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And I’ve never been the type of person that’s just like, I just go home and just do nothing. I think I’ve learned that after this second child like, I need some time to just and it’s–


Dr. Imani Walker: Be. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –okay. And as I’ve gotten right [baby crying in background] and as I’ve gotten older–


Dr. Imani Walker: See she’s like–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Say it girl. Preach it.


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes you need to chill. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. [laughing] Because it’s because as you get older, you kind of like does all that stuff really matter? And the answer is no. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No it don’t.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Like, am I going to remember at the end of my life that I had, you know, extra dishes? No. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I’m going to worry about that at all. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No, you’re not. You’re not. And legit, like, I don’t I, I don’t know if I mentioned this to you on the podcast or not, but um no, I probably did. I got my AARP card. I’m very excited. Um. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yay! 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yay, I got my AARP card. You could get one too girl um if you are– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I know. Because you said you were you were the reason why I was like, oh, let me go ahead and try to apply for one. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, girl, you know. I mean, it’s not like they got to approve you. You just pay for it and they give it to you. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. And it’s–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh. Okay. [?] have to go get mine.


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, it’s not. It’s not like. It’s not like. Can I. Can I come in your club? They like, for $12 a year, you can do whatever you want. So yeah but, but I’m now like I, I’m about to be 47 at the end of this month and I’ve really like the pandemic, obviously awful, terrible for so many people, including the 1 million people who died and their friends and family. I’m not going to sit here and say that– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –like, oh, I’m so happy the pandemic happened. I’m not happy it happened. For my well-being, though. I’m happy that I got the mental break. To say you’re doing way too much. You are doing–


Meg Scoop Thomas: That exactly. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –way too much. And like, what do you–


Meg Scoop Thomas: For sure. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –like for what? Like why? And a lot of that is because, like you said, like, my mom has been retired. For the past 14 years. She is all but I mean, retired from what? Retired from her former job. But she still she got jobs. She on boards, committees. And she you know, this morning I saw her and she was like, yeah, I’m about to. I got this meeting. I got to go. And I mean, she she busy. She booked and busy. I think some of that may, you know, culturally speaking, you know, like your mom is Korean. My family came from Jamaica, you know, and they always joke about Jamaicans how we always have tree job and I definitely have tree job. Like I’m never not going to have just one job. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Same same. Always.


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Having one job–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Having one job freaks me out because I’m like, what if something happens? Um but–


Meg Scoop Thomas: And that’s funny that you say that because we’re children of immigrants and like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Well not me.


Meg Scoop Thomas: –you know that’s like a really big–


Dr. Imani Walker: Not me. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Well I’m saying I’m saying you’re you’re family–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –comes from Jamaica. So–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –like I’ve noticed families that are have emigrated for somewhere else they tend to be a little more like the and that’s a trauma response. It’s like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: It is. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –we can never be lazy. We can never be lazy because we’re going to end up poor. We’re going to end up back where we were. And so for that reason, I’m a always just be busy, busy, busy for because I ain’t gonna be poor again. But that is a trauma response. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It is. And if you think about it honestly, culturally, it’s a trauma response because of slavery. It doesn’t mean that like did we– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yup. Yup/


Dr. Imani Walker: Did we want to be slaves? Did we want to be enslaved? No. But it’s kind of like how this generation. Like. Like I would say Gen X and onward. Um. Like. Like we were spanked. I knew when I had a child, I was like, I’m not spanking my son. Like, there’s like it’s it didn’t work. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Same. Same.


Dr. Imani Walker: It just– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s just silly. Like, we’re going to have to have a conversation about that. I’m not spanking my son, but there are certain things that even though we didn’t want them to happen to us, that we internalized. And staying booked and busy is one of them. Spanking our children was another one. Um. You know, having a like, I guess like um um taking on the patriarchy of the society that we live in is another one because there are a lot of like Jamaica is is definitely a matriarchal society. Like it is that’s that’s how it is. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And over here it’s much different. But in my family, it’s like if you have a question or a issue, you go to my mom like she’s the she’s the main one. Um. And and even it’s interesting, even her older brother, she’s the youngest. They go to her. So it’s just it’s just really interesting in that way. But I digress. My point is, is that we have internalized a lot of, you know, our oppressors, let’s say um um, coping mechanisms. And it’s it’s not it certainly didn’t work for them. And it’s not going to work for us because that was forced upon us. It reminds me a lot of, um, there is a Instagram account um god, I don’t want to get this wrong, but it’s, it’s, oh, it’s called the sleep ministry and it’s a Black woman. Um. And she is like, listen, if we’re really going to undo a lot of these, like coping like, like bad coping skills that we have developed culturally, like we have to rest and I–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oooh I love that. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Like, so they’ll be times when she’s like, Listen, I have this Instagram account, but I’m not. I’m gone for three months. I’m resting like, I’ll be like, for real. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I love that.


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m, I’m resting. And like, if you want to know where I’m at, like, I’m not going to be here. I’m fine, but I’m not going to be here because I have things to do. And the thing that I’m going to be doing is taking all these naps and just being me. And that was something that really like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Man. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –resonated with me. And so at the beginning of the show, the top of the show, I was saying like, yeah, like over the past week. I was kind of like down and like uh because it was raining and I love I mean, I’m not mad at the rain. I’m happy because all of my plants and stuff get the rain. But I needed to move around today and I’m glad that I did. But it it still is hard for me to just be like, just lay down, just lay down and, like, watch a show.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Okay so–


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s okay. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. But here here’s what I want to understand, though. How do you know if you’re being busy or if you’re being productive? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Like what’s the difference? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Good question. So productivity. Okay. This is this is this is my answer, because I was thinking about this um not too long ago. When I was booked and busy pre-pandemic, which seems like, you know, like I it was like it was a whole other like different me. Um. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I would have all this stuff to do. And a lot of it was busywork, you know what I mean? Like I like, for example, I back then if I got an email that came to my phone, I was like da da da. Like, all, like, respond to it right away. Right. Did anyone yell at me like, oh, my God, Imani. You’re not responding to emails right away? No, that was just me trying to be booked and busy and trying to avoid the fact that I was depressed and guilty and didn’t feel like the best mom and ex- you know, all the things that go along with depression, anxiety and just, you know, not having good self-worth, being productive for me now means that like girl this ask me if I’ve checked it is it is mid-day. Ask me if I checked my email yet? No, I haven’t. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Not at all. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I haven’t, I scrolled through and was like, they ain’t nothing important there. Nothing. Nobody needs anything. And if they do, they, they got my number. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Legit. And I’m– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: See. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So being productive means that there will come a time today when I will respond to like some emails, some of them, hey, some of them I might even leave till tomorrow because they’re not that pressing. But being busy means it’s busy work it’s really not contributing to your goal or like your job, let’s say it’s just you trying to find things to do to avoid yourself. Whereas being productive like now that I’m productive, like what I realized during the pandemic is I may have been at work for like, let’s say, like, let’s say I was at the hospital for like 6 hours. I can still do that same work in, like, 2 hours at home. That’s why I work from home. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: See, oh that’s good. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m like, I don’t need to go in there. I mean, I’m like, yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah it’s good. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I miss you guys. I miss talking to you guys. But y’all got my number like, I can get all this done in 2 hours and then go and chill and do what I need to do. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And that’s the difference. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You know, I think I I’ll I’ve gotten better at this since becoming a mom and having to, like, prioritize, you know, the stuff I do for myself, the stuff that I do for one of my multiple jobs, the stuff that I do for my kids. So, like having to be more organized has allowed me to go, okay, Megan. Is that really necessary or are you just trying to be busy? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You know what I mean? Like like what are you. So I’ve had to question that a lot. And I’m I’m proud of myself because I will say I feel much better because after a certain time, don’t hit me up. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Cause I’m not going to answer you. Like don’t. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Don’t. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I put it on my calendar at work uh like a certain three hour block because I’m in on the West Coast, East Coast, and then on the West Coast, there’s a certain three hour block. Don’t ask me for nothing because I have to get my child from school. I have to be a mom. I have to be present with my children. And then after that or before that, we good like–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –the rest of the day. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah, but that block. Don’t don’t ask me for nothing and I’ve stuck to my guns with that. I’m really proud of myself because before I had no boundaries when it came to like, you know, just work when people could reach me, it’s like, oh, all hours of the night or all hours of the day. It’s fine. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, yeah yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Not anymore. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. No, legit I, I was starting to do that and then as far as like scheduling time like just being like these like this block of time, I’m not, I’m not here like, um don’t try and call. And even if you call me like I like listen, there’s times my mom calls and I’m like, Mm mm. [laughter] And it’s not it’s not that I’m like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Sorry. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –I don’t want to talk her it’s just that like, I’m like–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: This can this can wait like an hour or maybe it might even wait [baby cry] till tomorrow. Yeah, exactly. She’s fine. [laughter] Exactly. So. So, yeah, I think that’s the big difference. And now that I have been more productive because I have been taking time to myself, I just feel better, I guess, because I mean, obviously my depression and anxiety are down, but also because I feel better about myself. Like there were things about my health, like physical– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah that’s good. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –health that I was ignoring, like, and that’s that’s not good. And I definitely feel just like, oh, like. Like, I’d be like, look at all the stuff I finished in 2 hours. As opposed to being like, well, that was really fun having these conversations with you guys throughout the day for 4 hours. But like on the on the real, I got to go back to my office and close the door and, and not not answer–. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –to anything so I can do this stuff. Um. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And I just. Yeah, I just. I just feel better. And also, I know that I’m doing better with with being productive and not busy because. How do I say this? Because I just feel like I can actually, like, tend to me. Like I actually don’t have to put like I was saying a little while ago, I don’t have to put it in my calendar like you got to take a break. It’s just like, oh okay, is it 2 o’clock? am I done?Okay then. Time to lay down. Like, time to go–


Meg Scoop Thomas: I love it. I love it.


Dr. Imani Walker: –look at a cloud. Time to go, like, you know, play with my plants. Like, that’s, you know, that’s that that’s really what it is. But but, you know, I think that it’s especially important now that there are like I remember earlier this year or actually right around September, there were certain companies that were like, okay, y’all got to come back to work. Y’all got to come back to work. And I always and I would say to myself, I was like, this is because the CEOs of those companies basically want everybody to be on the same shit that they’re on. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. And they want to be able to, like, watch you like a hawk instead of–. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Trust that you’re doing your job, that they pay you for. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. And I’m like, I’m sorry if your self-worth is not as great as mine is right now, but like, you could go home. Like you could do this from home. So I’m going to be at home. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. For real. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, for real. And now. Now, like, we’re seeing more and more. I saw a couple of articles over the weekend. Like, there are companies that are like, oh, we can help you build like uh, like uh your home office. Like we can help you like their it seems like these are like people that are like home office um um stylists, if you will. And so they’re like, yeah, we can totally help you create a hybrid office. I’m like, I feel like we’ve kind of been able to figure that out over the past three years, but whatever, whatever. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Ser– yeah, at this point you late. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. I’m not mad at the hustle, but but yeah, I would say that’s the biggest difference. Like, do you feel good? Like, do you feel like your work isn’t taking over your life? Because I used to be deadass. I used to be in the shower. Like when, when, when my like glass would steam up and I would like I would think about like, okay, I got to see this patient today. Like I would write down like, what medications do I want to change? What do I want to do? You know, like that type of thing and that it’s like now that now that I’m out of that mindset, I’m like, girl, you could have thought about that when you got to work. You ain’t got to do that in the shower. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: See. 


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s your time. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s your time. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So, so, yeah, I, I just, I just hope that everybody out there listening, like, understands, you know, yes, the holidays are coming. But I think there’s one things to be learned from Black Friday when really the sales were nonexistent because I was like 30%. That’s it? I was like I ain’t buying shit. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s it, right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. I think the stores were like, well, listen, the thing about it is that, like, we ain’t making no money so we ain’t gonna have no sale. So maybe y’all should like take a backseat as far as your spending and just like your busyness and busywork that you’re doing for the holiday, that’s how I took it. So I’m going to be I’m actually making Christmas presents this year, like, I’m making like liqueurs and stuff. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh that’s dope. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, I’m making, like, liqueurs and stuff. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I like it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, cause I’m like A.), like, you know, I’m cheap. B.) It’s more personalized and C.), like, it’s like having to think sometimes like, what does my mom what? What does my dad want? What do these people want? It takes so much time. And then you buy it. They may use it they may not. I’m like, everybody is going to love this liquor that I made, this coffee liquor. I hope no I hope none of my family’s– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s dope. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –listening cause that’s what y’all getting. Um. But um but yeah, I’m just like. I’m just trying to bring it. I’m trying to bring it back to the essence. Trying to bring it back to me. So I’m like, y’all gonna y’all gonna get these homemade goods. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s good. I like that, actually. Um. I feel like that’s something that I’m going to start adopting is just like being more intentional about stuff uh like, especially like for the holidays instead of buying a bunch of stuff and doing this, doing that, like, you know what I’m going to do real something that makes me happy. Something– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –really simple. And– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Instead of, like, trying to fill up my calendar and just be busy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Exactly. Right. Cause it’s. I mean, I have bought stuff for my parents, and I’m like, y’all don’t even use it. I know, you’re not using it, you’re not using that shit. So legit. I’m like, either you’re getting, like, something I made or you’re getting a plant that I grew. So there you go. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: There you go. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And it’s cost effective. And I’m just like, people are going to use it. So. So, yeah, I just. I just feel like, you know, like you, it’s time to be more intentional. And it’s time to really like this if if– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Love it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, if you are. If you are blessed with life, if you are breathing every day, if you are on this earth, then, you know, make sure that every day, not that every day counts, but make sure that every day is fulfilling for you. And um and that could mean anything that can mean take a walk, that can mean like schedule time in your calendar that can mean take a nap. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I love it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But yeah, like, honestly, like I’ve seen, I’ve seen a few memes about this on on social media, but it’s like, you know, grind culture is white supremacy. Like, it is a product of white supremacy. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oooh. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It is. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That is true. That’s true.


Dr. Imani Walker: It is. Like grind for what? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Why? Like, I got a job. I’m a get paid regardless. Like, what am I grinding for? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s true. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So that’s where I’m at. So, you know, next time, next time, your brain or your mind is like, ooh, we need to be booked and busy. Just remember, you don’t want to give in to white supremacy. So and also it’s nice to take naps and look at clouds. So. So in any case, that’s that’s actually all the time we have for our deep dive conversation today. [music break] Okay. Let’s get right into our pop culture diagnosis for this week. Meg, can you please give our listeners a quick synopsis of the Netflix docu series Killer Sally. Because, you know, we are absolutely going to be talking about some Sally. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. Now, at this point Netflix has done I mean, my TV is hostage to Netflix. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I’ve been watching stuff left and right on there. Now, Killer Sally, it’s a docu series about a bodybuilding couple. Now, this couple, there’s a lot of stuff that happened, but basically it ended up with Sally shooting her husband um on Valentine’s Day and then she went to prison for it. A lot happened. But like the real question is, did she do it like because he was attacking her or was this premeditated and she was mad cause he was cheating on her? He was he was just a bad husband and she just shot him like–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –I’m a end your life today. I that I don’t know. But it’s a very interesting docu series and actually like I had never heard about it until– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Me neither. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –watching it on Netflix.


Dr. Imani Walker: Me neither. I was like, what is this? I was like, this is um. I, because, you know, I love true crime. I know you love true crime. It was just never anything that I had ever heard of. So I was like, when I first saw it, I was like, Huh? But here’s the thing, right? So I went to Google it and I mean, you know, I will I will I will admit. That my Blackness initially prevented me from wanting to watch this. Okay. Because what I what I saw was– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Understood. Understood.


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. I’m like, I saw this this white woman, Sally, who, you know, petite, really cute blond hair. And I was like, so wait. I’m like so you’re telling me that she was a bodybuilder and she shot her Black bodybuilder husband? I was like, mm I don’t know. Like I was like, not that I was not that I was wasn’t ever going to watch it. But I was like, I need to let this simmer a little bit. I need to see if there’s anything, you know, if people are talking about it in a way that is intriguing or if there’s anything else that comes out the woodwork. So I just kind of wanted to let it simmer on the back burner. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So but because our producer was like, hey, we’re going to, you know, this is what we’re going discuss for today. I was like, all right, like, fuck it. Like, we’re going to watch Killer Sally. I’m going to I’m going to do it alright. Not put my Blackness aside. But I’m going to just as as a means of, you know, educating myself and also educating the rest of you guys. So I watched Killer Sally. I watched all of it. It was really good. Um. Now. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah, it was. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Before we talk about Sally’s diagnosis, because she actually gave her diagnosis during during the um the show during the series. But. The one thing that that I think everyone needs to understand before you watch Killer Sally and they go into this, obviously, is that bodybuilding, it’s a whole other culture. It is a sub sub subculture. There are people who go to the gym. There are people who like working out. There’s people who like training. And then there are people who deliberately change their body. So that it appears in a certain way. And I’ve read a lot– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right, right, right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’ve read a lot of articles. I’ve discussed it, you know, even like during my training, like, you know, are bodybuilders, do they have body dysmorphia? And I think we may have talked about it a little bit on an earlier show. And I think to a degree, they do because you like someone said something during the uh during the series and they said, you know, when it when it comes to the women especially but men too but especially the women, when you’re like a real for real bodybuilder and you’re a woman walking around in public is interesting because of what we’ve– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. Cause–


Dr. Imani Walker: –been taught and learned of how to think about a woman’s body shape. Right. Like we’re we already– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Exactly. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –and and me and you discussed this, Meg like you and I love looking at like, you know, before and afters on Instagram of like, you know, plastic surgery, plastic surgeons. Like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right, right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m just like, oh, my God, look what they did. Oh, my God, look what they did. Like that. I love a 180 I love a before and after. This is something completely different. Like like it’s it was obvious and they discussed this during the show. Like, these are people who are putting um foreign substances into their body in order to bulk up. They’re eating like uh K– her name isn’t Killer Sally. Her name her name is Sally McNeil. Sally was uh was married to um to her husband, who she ended up killing. And she told this story about how she would they would go to Costco. She’d go to Costco and buy I want to say it was ten steaks and her and her two kids–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Would eat three and he would eat the rest of them. This man was eating–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –114 eggs a week. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s crazy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: That’s crazy. And I mean, I know that, like, we can all go to, like, the Rock. Like we can all go to, like, Dwayne Johnson’s Instagram, and he’ll show, like, what he eats in a day. And it’s just like. I mean, it is it’s it’s–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I mean, it’s it’s I’m saying it’s a lot. I mean, obviously, you know, just the just just the quantity, but it’s like mentally, I’m like. What? Like, how are you like. It just makes my stomach hurt looking at that. But anyway, so we’re dealing with a– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Completely different subculture. I’m aware and I’m sure a lot of people listening too and you are too Meg that when you put, you know, um these foreign substances these exogenous substances in your body in order to bulk up a lot of it, is uh there are going to be anabolic steroids. And those are those are um steroids that build you up. The issue with anabolic steroids. And also if you use testosterone. And I believe that um that Killer Sally’s husband did. Um no well, as far as testosterone, um it can cause mood issues. And Sally–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –said that before he was trying to train to like get to like Mr. Olympia, the Mr. Olympia competition. And she said that like when when he was like like bodybuilders would say, like, oh, I’m six months out and three months out and three days out that as it would get closer and closer to the competition date that he would get more and more violent towards her. And I was and I wasn’t I completely expected that. So when it comes to to Ray McNeill, we were aware that like this was somebody who was getting more and more violent with more the more substances he put into his body. Ray had a very difficult upbringing and was sexually abused by a cousin. Um. His mom gave him up, um gave him up, I guess, for adoption at first when he was two weeks old and his grandmother raised him in poverty. Sally came from an equally um abusive background and was um basically physically abused like really badly. And she also would see her mom be like severely physically abused. And, you know, no surprise, these are two people that, you know, are very, very strong. They both have these abusive histories and they got married and they started beating the shit out of each other. Um. Sally said– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –That he started beating her three days after they got married. Granted, they got married two months after they met. But whatever that’s, you know, the impulsivity I’m not surprised by, because when you’ve dealt with that type of trauma, when you find somebody who you believe really loves you like that you are stick to them like glue. All right. So. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah, yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Sally and Ray. Ray, now, this is the case. At the end of the day, the [?] read is. This is a case of two people who didn’t abide by I can do or I can do bad all by myself. Right. Like, they really should have split a like they probably should have. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Way before. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Way. Like they probably should have dated and then, like, figured out, like, we don’t work and, like, walked away because Sally came into the relationship with two young kids um from a previous marriage and um– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: In any case and they’re they’re Sally’s kids were saying how not only were her kids biracial, but they were like, my mom is this like, you know, Xena the warrior princess looking woman and my dad looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger but Black. And then here we are at Disneyland and they walking around and in half shirts, you know what I’m saying. And bootyshorts. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m like they’re like my parents look like superheroes, like and we biracial like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: They were like it was all over the place anyway. So Sally. So Sally’s diagnosis, Sally said during the series, she was like, listen, I was in the Marines. She met Ray in the Marines. They were both stationed at Camp Pendleton out here in California. She was like, I had PTSD, but not from the Marines, she said I had PTSD, because Ray was beating the shit out of me. And he’s she said– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: That he would you know, she was like every time he would get mad at me, he would, like, go for my throat and try to choke me. Long story short, Ray had had a series of affairs. Um. He ended up getting killed on Valentine’s Day because he was going to break it off with his wife. She didn’t know that. She didn’t, Sally didn’t know that. But um he had that was his plan. And he started– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Or so she said she didn’t.


Dr. Imani Walker: So so so she says. So she says. Um. Long story short, uh they get into it because he got home really late, like the kids were asleep. Like that late. And um he started with her and she was like, I’m not taking this anymore. And she shot him twice. She shot him in the body, which killed him, like in his um like chest cavity. And then she shot him in the face. And it was and it was a it was a shotgun. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So you have to like reload. So that was kind of like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –the nail in the coffin for her during, you know, court testimony. So um Sally had PTSD what her now this story is interesting, but what’s equally interesting to me is her kids. So her kids, both of them went into the military. Her daughter ended up being in a relationship with someone for three years who beat her. And she was like, legit? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yup. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No. She was like, I’m not doing this. Like, I can’t like I’ve been down this road. My uh my stepdad is dead. I’m not doing this. Her son, Sally’s son, also entered the military. He went to like five tours of Afghanistan. The daughter went to three– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –tours in Iraq. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Crazy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It was crazy. So he said that when he got home, he was married. But like he was really he treated his wife really poorly and he instantly got into, like addiction, um got into drugs and became addicted. But at the end of it, you know, it’s a really happy it’s a really happy story. Um. I don’t know if you saw the end of it. But um.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. Where she got she got out. She did her time. 


Dr. Imani Walker: She did her time. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Um. And then she got out. She met a new man and she’s now happily married– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Norfleet. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –to this man.


Dr. Imani Walker: Did you see her husband’s new name is Norfleet? I was like, get it Sally girl. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: He’s so sweet too. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: She got her that, that is a that is a real Black name. Norfleet. Okay?


Dr. Imani Walker: That is listen, I was like, that’s I’m like that’s a real for real Black Black man. She he said– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: It is yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: The preacher said, um Norfleet, do you? I was like, Come on, Norfleet, come on, Norfleet and Sally it was it was– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: She’s she’s really happy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And now she’s, you know, reconnected with her children. She had lost touch with them. You know. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Cause there’s just a lot of trauma that happened to them as kids. Think about it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You know, this has happened to you. Um.


Dr. Imani Walker: And Ray was beating them. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: So–


Dr. Imani Walker: Ray was beating the shit out of them, girl it was oof. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: So, I yeah. So and this just goes to show you why if you don’t heal from your traumas, that they will get passed on. Because look what happened. She was you know, Sally saw that growing up. She saw her mom get beat. She was beat, her daughter got beat. Her son probably abuses, like there’s just so it keeps going [baby crying] if you don’t take care of it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes. Milan. Yes, girl. Yes it does it keeps going on. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: She over here. You. She think–


Dr. Imani Walker: She is– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: She out here preaching too girl. 


Dr. Imani Walker: She is she is testifying she like y’all need to heal y’all’s trauma now. I’m a baby, girl. Yeah. She’s like, I’m a baby but y’all got to figure this out. Um. But, yeah, like that. That was the most, like, glaring, like, take home. Like, heal yourself. Heal yourself. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Heal yourself. Because I guarantee Sally and Ray was training and taking all these steroids and definitely not working on themselves. Definitely not looking out for they kids. Um. Cause you know, Sally said that she would take her kids down to Tijuana with her to go get steroids for Ray. Meanwhile, girl. Ray wasn’t working the entire time. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Wow. 


Dr. Imani Walker: The entire time. So they broke and shit girl, it was it was a mess. But honestly, like, I’m glad that I watched it. Um. I’m glad that I took my time watching it. I’m I actually I really, like, cried, like, two little tears at the end. I was like I was like, that’s so sweet because everybody, I mean, I don’t know what’s going on now, but it was a really nice story of like, reckoning. Like, Sally was like, look, I did what I did. I fucked up. It doesn’t mean that I’m a fucked up person, but I was just scared and I didn’t want to, like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –get choked out again and, like, get beaten up again. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And so I I get it. I get it. Um. But it’s a cautionary tale. Like, you know, you really, I, I, I understand, you know, having a kid myself and not having all of my trauma healed. And it takes it’s a process um in an ideal world. You know.


Meg Scoop Thomas: It is. For sure. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. In an ideal world, you want to make sure that you are healed and sometimes it doesn’t work out that way, but having kids is always like the best impetus to start that process. So um I’m really glad in the end that like, you know, big up to Sally and Norfleet. Big up to Sally and her kids. Like, I’m really glad to see that you guys at the end of this show like came together. And it was really it was really like touching. Like, I’m I’m glad I watched it in the end. So, yeah, Killer Sally, not a killer no more. You did it. [laughter] [baby cry] I’m really proud of you. I’m really proud of you. Yeah, I’m really proud of you. So that being said, I loved the show and that’s also it for our pop culture diagnosis of the show. So we’re going to have, of course, another fun character to analyze next week. If you guys have suggestions for fictional characters out there you’d like for me to diagnose, hit me up on Twitter at @doctor_Imani hit Meg up on Instagram @MegScoop and email the show at And again, if you’re enjoying the show, please don’t forget to rate and review the show on your favorite podcast app. Thank you for listening to Imani State of Mind. Thank you to Meg as always, for co-hosting. Thank you, to Milan, for testifying. And we’ll be, we will be back for an all new episode next week. [music break] This is a Crooked Media production. Our executive producer is Sandy Girard. Our producer is Lesley Martin. Music from Vasilis Fotopolous, edited by Evan Sutton and special thanks to Brandon Williams, Gabi Leverette, Mellani Johnson and Matt DeFro for promotional support.