Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny + The Indy Franchise | Crooked Media
Jon, Jon & Tommy's first ever book is here - Order Democracy or Else NOW! Jon, Jon & Tommy's first ever book is here - Order Democracy or Else NOW!
July 12, 2023
X-Ray Vision
Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny + The Indy Franchise

In This Episode

On this episode of X-Ray Vision, Jason Concepcion and Rosie Knight ready their whips! In the Previously On (1:35), they explore the Indiana Jones franchise, speed-capping the first four films. In the Airlock (6:24) Jason and Rosie dive deep (deeep) into Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, discussing the overwhelming plotting, the deaging, and the box office bombing. Then, in Nerd Out (1:10:37) a Secret Invasion theory.


Note: Imprecise timestamps are an unfortunate side effect of a new ads system. Thank you for your patience as we work to resolve this issue.


Tune in every Wednesday & Friday and don’t forget to Hulk Smash the Follow button!


Nerd Out Submission Instructions!

Send a short pitch and 2-3 minute voice memo recording to that answers the following questions: 1) How did you get into/discover your ‘Nerd Out?’ (2) Why should we get into it too? (3) What’s coming soon in this world that we can look forward to or where can we find it? If you’re sending a theory, feel free to send only a summary of your theory (no audio needed) for Jason and Rosie to react to on air.


Follow Jason:

Follow Rosie: IG, Letterboxd, & newsletter

Join the X-Ray Vision Discord

Follow Crooked:


The Listener’s Guide to all things X-Ray Vision!

Consider donating to the Entertainment Community Fund here.




Jason Concepcion Warning. This podcast contains spoilers for Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, as well as the first four films in the Indiana Jones franchise. Hello, my name is Jason Concepcion.


Rosie Knight And I’m Rosie Knight.


Jason Concepcion And welcome to X-ray Vision, the Crooked Media podcast, where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics and pop culture.


Rosie Knight In this episode in the Previously On, we are jumping into the Jeep or into the Dinghy or whichever your preferred Indiana Jones method of travel is.


Jason Concepcion Lead Lined fridge.


Rosie Knight Lead lined fridge. A very smartl idea, I must just say. And we’re going to look back on the Indiana Jones franchise to lead into our Airlock, where we’ll be talking about Indiana Jones and the Dial Destiny. And in Nerd Out, we have a theory on Secret Invasion.


Jason Concepcion Coming up, Previously On. Bum, Bum, Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. Bang! Bang. Here we go, folks. The legendary collaboration between George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, which produced the Indiana Jones franchise, which started with Raiders of the Lost Ark 1981, followed by Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom in 1984. Technically a prequel. We’ll get into that in our recap, followed by Indiana Jones The Last Crusade in 1989, filed by Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull 2008 followed this year with a resounding Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny. But let’s start with Raiders of the Lost Ark. Rosie, we open in 1936, and we meet intrepid archeologist, tenured university professor, adventurer and grave robber Indiana Jones on a mission to recover a golden idol from an ancient temple in the jungles of Peru. A place where he will return later in this series. His aide de camp double crosses him, setting up a theme of the franchise.


Rosie Knight Rude.


Jason Concepcion Rude. And he’s nearly crushed by a boulder. But he does get out alive thanks to, you know, his guile and his trusty bullwhip. Unfortunately, the idol is then stolen from his hands by his rival. In the field of archeology. Dr. Belloq and Indiana has to flee for his life back at university, where he teach again. He is a teacher. He’s and apparently fending off advances from his students at all times. I suspect.


Rosie Knight A lot of students.


Jason Concepcion We’ll get into this. Yes. The U.S. Army intelligence comes calling and they tell Dr. Jones that they have unscrambled some communiques from a guy named Adolf Hitler you may have heard of. And it turns out Hitler is obsessed with ancient artifacts. And the Nazis are currently digging for something in Egypt and nobody knows what’s going on. Jones is like, oh, I think they found the fabled legendary city where the Hebrew Ark of the Covenant is may be kept in a place called the Well of Souls. And the U.S. Army intelligence guys are like, Wow, I guess we came to the right guy. Tell us more. And it turns out the Nazis are also looking for a guy who specialized in the Ark of the Covenant and named Abner Ravenwood. And Jones also knows him. More to the point, Jones knows Abner’s daughter, Marion. And when I say know, what I mean is Jones used to have sexual relations with Marion when, in her words, she was a child. And you could do the math on how old she’s supposed to be in the movie. It’s a bad look for Dr. Indiana Jones. But it was 1981 and I guess and things were different and.


Rosie Knight I guess it was 1936 in his time.


Jason Concepcion Yeah and things were also different. Anyway. The army is like, okay, go, go after Abner Ravenwood. Jones knows where he is. He thinks he’s probably in Nepal. He goes to Nepal, he finds Marion there. She’s running a bar and she is now a full blown alcoholic. And honestly, the dark take on rewatches like because she’s really mad at him and that anger like bubbles over, quite easily. And it’s that kind of like infamous snippet of dialog where she says, like, I was a child, yada, yada, yada. He’s like, the dark read on it is like she is medicating the trauma from a relationship with full grown adult, Doctor Indiana Jones.


Rosie Knight By living in a bar in rural Nepal and getting drunk every single day drinking people under the bar.


Jason Concepcion Um, so, but she but luckily she has probably the strongest liver of any human being.


Rosie Knight She’s powerful.  I love my Marion.


Jason Concepcion She’s a very, very, very powerful. And again, a high functioning alcoholic. It turns out Abner is dead. But. But what about his artifacts related to Tanis, the city where the Ark probably is? What about that stuff? Namely, a medallion. Is that still around? Marion is like, No, come back tomorrow. Maybe we’ll talk about it. Unfortunately, the Nazis are also in town, led by a very ominous Gestapo Officer Toht. And he is looking for the same stuff. Jones and Marion just barely escaped with the medallion. But unbeknownst them, Toht has a partial image of the medallion burned into his hand and at a high enough resolution that it’s actually useful. Next stop, Egypt, where we meet Indy’s friend and sometime fixer, Gimli. I’m sorry. I mean, Sallah. His crew is has been hired by the Nazis to do some digging. And Gimli says the Nazis were really stupid except for this guy, Belloq. And then Indy’s like, No, no, no, you idiot. That’s Belloq. Which, like, how did he I guess he saw his name like, on a call sheet. Like, how does that work? How do you get his name wrong?


Rosie Knight I also.


Jason Concepcion When you hear it.


Rosie Knight Say, I just want to say, there are so many Kana six inch remake figures of Belloq in every Target. So if you, I’m  always like, why is he there?


Jason Concepcion Who wants Belloq?


Rosie Knight Who wants Belloq? I mean, he does have a cool, like kind of like a coat on. But like, yeah, I don’t know, maybe he found one of the toys and that’s, that’s how he gets the name now. How did he get it right?


Jason Concepcion But it turns out the Nazis are appear to be close to finding the Well of Souls. Little does Indy know that he is being spied on.


Rosie Knight But by who?


Jason Concepcion Well, it’s the Spy Monkey. A Spy Monkey is working directly with the Nazis.


Rosie Knight I can’t believe he’s a Nazi. I’m so disappointed in that.


Jason Concepcion I know the Nazis, it turns out, have perhaps a team of Spy Monkeys. Certainly at least one. And they set loose a team of assassins to kill Indy in the streets of Cairo. But of course, he escapes because we’re only like 45 minutes in the movie. Spy Monkey helps the Nazis capture Marion.


Rosie Knight Rude.


Jason Concepcion And Indy thinking Marion is dead, honors her in the way that she would like to be honored. Which means he starts binge drinking. Since Belloq calls for him and does some monologuing, basically says, like, you’re the good version of me, but you know you’re going to be me soon enough and yada, yada, yada. And Indy is eventually saved from being murdered by Belloq and Black’s assassins by a gang of street kids. Spy Monkey dies from poison dates, which allow, which allow Gimli to realize that the seeds are poisoned, bad dates, and and saves Indy’s life. And Indy never thanks him. And by the way.


Rosie Knight Rude.


Jason Concepcion I think so. Indy sneaks into the Nazi camp. He finds the actual location of the Well of Souls because he knows that the the staff that the Nazis using this is too long. He discovers Marion, who’s still alive. But because the ark is really  the pressing thing right now, he leaves Marion.


Rosie Knight He’s like, Bye. Are you an ancient artifact Hitler ants? No, you’re not. Fuck off You’re not off. So. So I’ll see you later that night.


Jason Concepcion Mainly braves the Well of Souls, which is filled with snakes and other behaviors. And he hates them and famously does not like snakes.


Rosie Knight Not a fan.


Jason Concepcion Not a fan. And he recovers the ark. Meanwhile, Belloq has grown obsessed with Marion in a very short amount of time, and he gets her address that looks suspiciously like a wedding dress and asks her to wear it. And Marion, meanwhile, is plotting her escape, and she figures, Let’s have a drinking game, which I’m really good at. She gets Belloq really, really drunk. And just as she’s about to grab a knife and either stab him or just threaten him, an escape Gestapo Officer Toht shows up with the most kinky clothes hanger of all fucking time.


Rosie Knight He’s ready.


Jason Concepcion I knew he was ready for some shit. And you know what? I want to stop here because we are going to talk about the Dial of Destiny and the wonderful Mads Mikkelsen. And I love Mads Mikkelsen and everything. So we will never turn away the sight of the wonderful Mads Mikkelsen on any kind of screen I’m watching. But I will say I do like one of the things I like about Raiders is that the most ominous Gestapo officer is really just like a geek, you know? He’s just, like, not. He’s not formiddable looking at all.


Rosie Knight Meant to be scared of because he is, like, secretly this psycho, you know? He you don’t know what he’s thinking. Like, that’s a scary character. Also, like I will say, one of the most enjoyable things about these movies, which is as we will get into a very patchy and really terribly racist, the further into them you get.


Jason Concepcion Really quite are.


Rosie Knight It is great to see just like Nazis are just getting killed now only Indiana Jones.


Jason Concepcion Willy nilly.


Rosie Knight Other people didn’t love to see it, but when he’s killing anarchy or somebody beating up a Nazi or drinking a Nazi to an early grave.


Jason Concepcion It’s just great.


Rosie Knight That, that’s a feel good situation. I feel like that’s part of why these movies have held such a long esteem is like it’s very rare that you can watch a movie and feel good about people being killed. But Indiana Jones, you’re like, Sorry, you are a Nazi.


Jason Concepcion And Indiana famously has never, ever, ever been a Nazi sympathizer except when he slept with full blown Nazi, Dr. Alison, we will get to that.


Rosie Knight He didn’t know she was a Nazi. Just saying.


Jason Concepcion We’ll get to that in just a bit. Okay. The next morning, Belloq intercepts Jones and Gimli as they are removing the ark once again. He is right there. He takes the ark for Hitler. The Nazis locked Jones in the Well of Souls along with Marion, much to Belloq’s chagrin. But of course, they escape because now we’re only an hour and 15 into the movie, Jones manages to steal your back from Belloq. He loads it not to a shipboard for the states. Jones and Marion share a cabin, which is we’re right back into it. I guess trying to rekindle that old statutory magic. And Indy is too, is too banged up to do anything and he falls asleep. And of course the Nazis intercept the boat, they take back the ark, they seize Marion, despite and this was record scratch shit here for me. This is a movie for PG movie for kids. The despite the fact that the ship’s captain is like, Hey, leave the girl so we can use her to offset the costs of the trip.


Rosie Knight Boo. Tomato, tomato.


Jason Concepcion And again, a movie that I enjoy. I do enjoy Raiders, but this is a movie for children. This is a PG movie for kids.


Rosie Knight They may use the pulp trappings to do some, to lean into their worst tendencies.


Jason Concepcion Pre code. Almost like a pre code movie for kids.


Rosie Knight They’re like, Well, it’s based on stuff from a time when things were really racist or misogynist, so let’s just go for it.


Jason Concepcion This is the good part. Belloq is absolutely thrilled to have his girl Marion back. Indy sneaks onto the Nazi submarine, rides it back to the Nazi Guns of Navarone style base. He ambushes Belloq and the Nazis with an RPG. But then Belloq is like, Come on, this is a terrible climax to the film. If you just blow us all up, don’t you want to see us open the thing? And Indy’s like, yes, I do. That evening, Belloq intones a Hebrew prayer. He opens the ark and while cameras roll, magic fire melts. Everyone who is looking at the Ark and Jones and Marion survive by not looking at it. Really smart by Indiana Jones.


Rosie Knight Okay, so let’s talk about this. So that, like this is one of the most. In the one thing I love about Raiders is like it is like a really pulpy B-movie style film right here. But it also is like an intrinsically interesting cinematic conversation starter because you could arguably say, and it has been said, has been said by me and articles, it’s been said in the now very famous Big Bang Theory, cold open. Probably the only time we will ever mention the Big Bang Theory on this show. But like Indiana Jones does not really affect he doesn’t do any of the events in this film. At the end of the movie is God burning everybody’s eyes out because they tried to touch the Ark of the Covenant that would have happened whether or not Indiana Jones was involved. Now, arguably the biggest change. The stick may be, but someone else might have worked that out. Like he doesn’t really play much of a role in the actual actions of the movie. He does not move along in the traditional way of a protagonist. And you could argue that the movie is the same with or without him. I just find that so interesting and weird.


Jason Concepcion I think it’s very, very weird. And also, I mean, you know, Spielberg is just like in his bag because you don’t know, like.


Rosie Knight No, you never notice until you.


Jason Concepcion That Indiana does nothing. The hero of the film does not do anything.


Rosie Knight He is argueably not even the protagonist in the way that we understand or our protagonist is, because the Nazis would have died anyway, like he arguably, you could say he he changed whether or not they’d be able to open it. But I think you could argue that somebody else may have been able to do that. It’s so weird. But like you said this is a movie that is all about vibes. Because you’re so, you’re in the it’s like, oh, you picked up like a pulp novel and you just go in with it and you wish it wasn’t racist. But oh look, there’s like a cool, you know, a boulder’s going to knock him over it and he’s running away from a boulder. By the way, I just want to say that moment is actually directly stolen from a Scrooge McDuck comic, if you can believe it directly. There’s a good comic book bit of knowledge for you, but yeah, like you’re just vibing on it, but it always makes me laugh. And in a recap when you start saying it is just like, okay, so Indiana Jones gets there, doesn’t do anything. They open it, everybody dies. And then he just like puts in a warehouse.


Jason Concepcion Well, I think again, I think Spielberg was just you know, he Spielberg was on a truly the midst of a legendary iconic cinematic run. And I just think the way over the course of this film, they build up the Ark of the Covenant, build it up, build it up, build it up. You can get away with the final act of the movie being in what the fuck’s inside this thing and watch us microwave all these Nazis.


Rosie Knight The original Pulp Fiction suitcase. It’s like you want to know what’s in there.


Jason Concepcion It’s also because there are essentially no special effects in this movie until this sequence, it just kind of knocks you back, especially the face melt, which remains incredibly powerful.


Rosie Knight I mean, we all still think about it at all times, but that’s one of the first things that you think about when you watch when you think about Indiana Jones. And one of the most interesting things is that actually was like so influential that there’s like this also very offensive. I will just put that but like a B-movie called Street Trash that was directed by J. Michael Morrow and it’s like the whole movie is like that effect. It’s basically that this booze get this like booze gets infected and anyone who drinks it melts. And the movie is called like a melee movie. And it was kind of that Troma style thing. But that literally is just replicating the famous face melting sequence, which I watched so many times as a kid and also, like, absolutely devastated me and terrified me as a kid.


Jason Concepcion Oh, so scary.


Rosie Knight So good. Actually. You know what? I think Steven Spielberg, you make a great point, because the truth is, if you think about the movies that he made his name with. Jewel. Jaws, you know, those movies that she lost her.


Jason Concepcion Close Encounters.


Rosie Knight Yeah. Close Encounters. I mean, those movies were actually very unconventional. Like Jaws. Obviously, you had all the issues with the shark, so you barely see the shark. And then when you do see at the end, it’s this huge impact moment and you create that really weird. Under half underwater, half above water. POV.


Jason Concepcion Close Encounters is one of the craziest slow burn movies of all time.


Rosie Knight Ever.


Jason Concepcion Nothing. Almost nothing


Rosie Knight I loved making mashed potato mountains. Just chilling.


Jason Concepcion Yeah but in the in the. In contrast to like a movie really say almost nothing happens over the first like hour of that movie is happening, except a guy flipping out.


Rosie Knight ,E.T., is just a bunch of kids and like, a weird puppet. So actually in that way, the idea that he kind of made a protagonist less movie where the character who is the titular character is not really the protagonist who drives on the story at all. That actually makes a lot of sense because he was always doing things in a kind of unusual way.


Jason Concepcion He absolutely was. X-ray Vision will be back.




Jason Concepcion And we’re back. Raiders of the Lost Ark was followed by Temple of Doom. We opened in 1935, so this is a prequel and one of the most interesting things. To me on rewatch was just what a different guy. Indiana was only one year earlier. Of course, in Raiders, it’s got to get at a museum. This belongs in a museum. We got to get this in a museum. One year earlier, he’s just like out here flipping artifacts for diamonds. Like, just seemingly the museum thing had slipped his mind at this point. Like, he’s just out here looking for cash. Like, quick cash.


Rosie Knight I’m like, I’m guessing that he was, like, meant to be doing it for some other magnanimous reason, because he’s always finding something to do. But really, I think they’re essentially setting him up as a bit more of like a rogue who works on his own moral and ethical compass, because then we end up with the main MacGuffin of this, which wouldn’t really necessarily work with the museum argument.


Jason Concepcion Agreed. And again, this this Indiana Jones, a real hero although roguish in Raiders, is not above like taking a dinner fork and sticking it into a bystander’s ribs and saying like, I will stab this woman unless you give me what I need.


Rosie Knight He is doing This is one of the most bonkers cold opens of all time. And you can.


Jason Concepcion It’s wonderful.


Rosie Knight If you if you. If they made movies like this today that was still like this and not like Dial of Destiny, they’d be like, each movie’s going to take from a different time period. It will showcase the different influences of film makers and choreographers. That is essentially what Spielberg was doing, but without any of the PR like, it’s so different from Raiders and just absolutely bonkers.


Jason Concepcion This Cold Open actually might be my favorite thing in the entire series. It is in a movie that is is crazy for its highs and lows. It is very it’s filled with adventure and excitement. Has maybe the best personal relationships of any of the movies, but also is like horrendously racist. And this cold open is it’s has madcap action. It is a wonderful homage to the musical work of Busby Berkeley with this kind of like, wonderful dance routine that opens the doors.


Rosie Knight Opens up with a full musical.


Jason Concepcion Full musical.


Rosie Knight Just like, sure.


Jason Concepcion Where we meet showgirl Willie, played by Kate Capshaw, later Steven Spielberg’s wife. When we say highs and lows, I think the character of Willie is certainly one of the lows. She just exists to be like.


Rosie Knight I’m a woman, everything is terrible.Is that a spider? The costuming is fantastic.


Jason Concepcion Fantastic. And she and Kate is a wonderful actress who does it with charm.   But they don’t they give her a lot.


Rosie Knight And that’s I think they don’t.


Jason Concepcion Give her anything.


Rosie Knight That classic thing of like, oh, well it’s set in the old days so we can make it as misogynistic as we presume. But actually, I just want to say, I talk about this a lot. When you actually go back and watch an old noir movie, actually a lot of times when there were women directing them, Ida Lupino, the Hitch-Hiker, watch it.  It’s unbelievable. But two, a lot of times the female characters in the movie actually, like super complex and like weird and dark and smart and clever and funny. And I think this is almost where you get into that parody verse is homage or whatever. They sort of think, Oh, well, it’s a femme fatale. It’s like a woman. She said she doesn’t know what she’s doing. That’s how it was back then. And it’s doesn’t actually really represent the era she.


Jason Concepcion Just known.


Rosie Knight They were making. No, there’s no talling. No there’s nothing. There’s no cool double side. I don’t even know what this would be. She’s like, almost she’s almost the comedy relief. But she.


Jason Concepcion She is the comic relief.


Rosie Knight Which they don’t give her a lot of like gags. It’s not in the usual way, the jokes. She is the butt of the jokes by being the one who doesn’t want to go on the adventure, who doesn’t want to be involved, who hates Bob.


Jason Concepcion She is kind of the like. Joan’s is the straight man. And then they cut to her freaking out about like the horribly racist fights that they have or the spiders or like the monkey brains. The monkey brains or the food in the village not being up to snuff, that kind of stuff. And more about the highs, of course. This is the feature film debut of Ke Huy Quan, who is wonderful. The vet has, as Indiana Jones is assistant fixer young, short round the diamond deal that Jones is working on goes sideways. And so Doctor Jones, Willy and Sallah have to escape via plane, which eventually crashes in the Himalayas. And Jones and company survive by sledding down the mountain in inflatable boat which they dive out of the crashing plane.


Rosie Knight Unbelievable.


Jason Concepcion And so for everyone’s  who.


Rosie Knight Go down a mountain.


Jason Concepcion Go down the Himalayas.


Rosie Knight Like a mountain in an inflatable dinghy.


Rosie Knight And every single one of you watch this as a kid and rewatched as an adult and thought, that is cool ass shit.


Jason Concepcion Yeah, that’s right. So remember this. When we get to Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and the lead line refrigerator, okay? They eventually come to rest near a village somewhere in northern India. Let’s stop here. So the government of India read this script and said this is like horrendous.


Rosie Knight Racist.


Jason Concepcion It’s it’s offensive. It paints Indian culture in an inaccurate and horrendous light. And we’d like you to tweak the film, tweak the script to make it more an accurate depiction of Indian culture. And the production was like, No, let’s just shoot in Sri Lanka instead. So the film was shot in Sri Lanka.


Rosie Knight I just need to say that is like the least you can do. Like, how hard would it have been to just be like, yeah, sure who who noticed this in your office? So what’s the bad talk to?


Jason Concepcion For instance? We don’t eat eyeball soup. Or live snakes.


Rosie Knight If we do eat awful, we don’t eat out of a monkey’s head. Every culture.


Jason Concepcion And by the way, every culture eats awful.


Rosie Knight Thank you, but like.


Jason Concepcion Blood sausage, anyone?


Rosie Knight How, how, how little they were asked to do, and yet they said no. And if I’m not mistaken, I believe that the little village that they built in Sri Lanka for this is actually still there. It was at least when I was younger, it was a it was a tourist destination that people talked about quite a lot because they just left it there as is were want of Hollywood production.


Jason Concepcion So Jones and company are like, Hey, can you just send us to like the nearest town with a telephone? But the villagers are like, No, we need you to stop at the Maharajas Palace because our children are disappearing and we’re all starving. And this is somehow connected to the theft of our sacred Sankara stone. And so. Indiana Jones Please go figure it out. Jones and friends go there. They meet the local British colonial forces and they are treated to the aforementioned horrendous feast, which includes, as we mentioned, eyeball soup, live snakes, monkey brains. et cetera. Stuff that’s not real


Rosie Knight Just nothing, not any real, not anything that you would actually see somebody just ridiculous corny shit.


Jason Concepcion Jones discovers that a thuggish cult led by the ominous Mola Rum have been kidnaping local kids to use a slave labor to dig up the rest of the Shankara Stones. And also Mola Ram does crazy stuff like pull the beating heart out of living people as. He’s doing this.


Rosie Knight He’s just doing that all the time. He’s doing it. Doing it. Can’t help it.


Jason Concepcion Regular ass basis.


Rosie Knight Loves it.


Jason Concepcion The film has a really dark, gory tone that I actually quite like.


Rosie Knight Was the reason that when I was a kid, I would always return to this movie. Like even. And even as I got older and understood like how horrifically racist it was, like it seemed like a fantasy to me when I was a kid, so I didn’t really put it together as much. But like the darkness, especially when you get into the the voodoo kind of like horror elements, even the feast actually is played very much for horror, which plays in horrifying racist shit. But yeah, when you get down into the cabins and they’re sacrificing the kids and everything, it’s really bleak.


Jason Concepcion I mean, when Mola Ram pulls the heart out, it’s like the face melts from Raiders. It’s right there.


Rosie Knight He almost pulls it out of Indy. You see it like pushing through the chest.


Jason Concepcion Oh, my gosh.


Rosie Knight I always remember that.


Jason Concepcion And then, of course, India is, you know, turned into a zombie, an evil zombie point. And it’s really, really scary. And there’s that man, that scene that sticks with me even now when short ground is like, I love you and please wake up. And India is like hating him and stuff. And and Ke Huy Quan is crying.


Rosie Knight Yeah he was selling it.


Jason Concepcion Like he burns in the way. Very, very dark and very, very violent. In fact, two months after Temple of Doom was released, the MPAA, at the behest of Spielberg, would create the PG 13 rating because PG this this movie and Gremlins really, really pushed the envelope of what PG could be. Yeah. Eventually Indie with significant help from short round defeats Mola Ram, frees the kids, returns to Shankara Stones, and the British colonial forces are victorious, gunning down maybe many of the thuggish cult and movie.


Rosie Knight How about you should have how get rid of those colonial forces? Can I just say that this was also just one of the only times you just wanted not to give Indiana Jones any credit? Because I wouldn’t like to do it, you know? But I will say nice to see him return to the Stone. He usually does just steal it, that stone to put it in a museum, you know, I’m glad. Good for him for returning that stone. Wish he’d learned a lesson there and continued that throughout his life.


Jason Concepcion We go to The Last Crusade, and this is a film with a notably lighter touch than Temple of Doom, a more adventurous, humor filled movie. And I think it’s the best movie of the franchise.


Rosie Knight It’s the best one. I think it combines what both movies did well and manages to issue a lot of what they did less well. And yeah, just very fun. This actually has my favorite cold open of all the trilogy, one of the most impactful, cinematic, wonderful moments for me. I still think about it regularly. I think it’s just wonderful. So yeah, this is a joy. This is my favorite.


Jason Concepcion So that that aforementioned Cold Open takes place in Utah, in the teens. We meet the young Indiana Jones with a wonderful long mop of surfer hair.


Rosie Knight Played by River Phoenix.


Jason Concepcion By the late River Phenix as who is wonderful in this role.


Rosie Knight So fun. You want to see a whole movie about him as this great circus train chase. You learn about why he’s afraid of snakes, where he got his look, which is a really weird lore


Jason Concepcion Apparently he just got his entire look from a guy who he hat.


Rosie Knight After he bested him like this guy.


Jason Concepcion After he bested him. It was great.


Rosie Knight This guy literally beats Indiana Jones as a child. And Indiana Jones is like, better just based my entire look vibes these Easter egg everything yeah just got to be based on him as a teen This kid was like this. Yeah it’s got to be in a museum.


Jason Concepcion And by the way, it seems he loved it. It was a zeal for museums crossing Coronado that belongs in a museum. Even then, you know, young Indiana Jones was like he was passionate about museums back in the present at school. Dr. Jones get his gets his dad’s journal in the mail and he discovers that his dad, who is a minimalist, has disappeared. Apparently while on a quest for the legendary Holy Grail, a.k.a. Jesse’s mug, Walter Donovan, the financier behind this quest for the Grail, invites Dr. Jones over and he says, Hey, why don’t you go look for your dad? You know, we were really close to finding it. Yeah, let’s see. We were really close to finding the Grail. Why don’t you go? Jones and his buddy Dr. Marcus Brody had to Venice on Dad’s trail. There they meet full blown Nazi beauty, Dr. Elsa Schneider, I guess, who’s been working closely with Henry Jones. Very, very closely.


Rosie Knight She lies about being a Nazi, but I feel like he’s probably met enough Nazis to know she had tBig Nazi energy.


Jason Concepcion This is my issue.


Rosie Knight Big Nazi energy.


Jason Concepcion When. When when people are like, well, okay, But she didn’t know. She’s like an a blond Austria in 1938.


Rosie Knight What are the chances?


Jason Concepcion Yeah. Like, could we wouldn’t you be. Like, hey, so.


Rosie Knight So, are you a Nazi?


Jason Concepcion You kind of assume she’s a Nazi, right? Yeah. I mean, at least.


Rosie Knight I think he’s like. He’s like, well, my dad’s working with her, so, you know, I don’t want to. I don’t want to. I’m just like. And, you know. Yeah. The dad son, Elsa love I always think about.


Jason Concepcion Also I love. I love that. I love that they get a little bit of a gag out of, you know, the innate misogyny of the late eighties with the Oh, Dr. Schneider is a woman. No one ever could have seen this coming. Holy shit.


Rosie Knight Oh, my God. Do you believe that? Oh, what a beautiful woman. And she’s not wearing, like, giant glasses. It doesn’t have, like, badly cut bangs. Also, I will say, when you get the reveal of Indiana Jones’s dad being played by Sean Connery, that’s like a top tier casting.


Jason Concepcion Indiana. Oh, my god.


Rosie Knight It’s so good.


Jason Concepcion It doesn’t get better.


Rosie Knight I get so good together to like. Yeah, just enjoyable.


Jason Concepcion It’s a masterclass on both of them.


Rosie Knight Yeah.


Jason Concepcion Jones discovers that there is a tomb underneath the library in Venice, and there they find a Knight Shield which has instructions that lead them to Iskander. And there they discover that the Nazis have taken Henry to a castle in Austria. Jones sends Marcus Brody with the diary separately to Iskander and to meet up with Gimli. And later, he sleeps with the Nazi doctor.


Rosie Knight Fun.


Jason Concepcion Okay. Indy sneaks into the castle, rescues Dad, but Elsa reveals herself now to be the full blown Nazi that she indeed is full fledged believer in the Third Reich. Double crosses them. Indy and Henry escape. Henry slaps Indy for using Christ’s name in vain, which is going to be a theme in this movie is Dr. Jones is steadily indoctrinated into the Christian Catholic faith. The pair make their way to Berlin, where Indiana gets Hitler’s autograph, and later they get out of town by sneaking aboard a zeppelin and stealing a Luftwaffe plane. Crazy sequence.


Rosie Knight You could not believe that all of that happens in the time that you just described this insane sequence. Unhinged.


Jason Concepcion Indiana fights more Nazis, as does the centuries old secret sect who has been guarding the Grail all these years. Indiana rescues his dad and Dr. Brody from an out of control tank which tumbles off a cliff. And it seems like Indiana goes over the edge. But you know what, Lee? You look at the clock, there’s 30 minutes left in this movie. Of course, he’s still alive. And his dad thinking that he was gone, embraces him. There’s a wonderful like man, Harrison Ford is so good. There’s a wonderful gag where Henry, Gimli and Marcus are all peering over the edge. They’re they’re shattered with grief. And Indiana, who climbed up, you know, some some distance away totters over to them and was like, what are they looking at? And it’s over. And then they realize that he’s alive. It’s fantastic.


Rosie Knight Yeah, it’s really good stuff.


Jason Concepcion Later in front of the GRAIL’s hiding place, the Nazis shoot Henry in order to force Indy to go in and find the cup inside. Indiana, as we mentioned, is indoctrinated to Catholicism being forced to kneel, to read, you know Christ’s name.


Rosie Knight You know, I will say, they make it look quite fun. Like, they make it adventurous. You got to walk across like a cool bridge.


Jason Concepcion It’s fantastic. He makes a leap of faith. Yes. As you mentioned, he eventually meets a 2000 year old knight who shows him a selection of cups. Enter financier Walter Donovan, who’s like, Yes, Finally, he picks the most Rick Ross style chalice and promptly dies of all these.


Rosie Knight I mean, this is even as a child, I was like, this man. Like, which cup do you think Jesus drank?


Jason Concepcion The gold?


Rosie Knight And what was he was he a gold forger? No. He was a humble man and he was a carpenter, babe. Like, put two and two together.


Jason Concepcion Well, Indiana knows that. He picks the worst looking cup. And of course, it’s the right one. He uses the cup to heal dad’s gunshot wound and the Grail temple falls apart. You know, as they take the Grail out, Elsa dies when she tumbles into a fog.


Rosie Knight Now she’s dead.


Jason Concepcion She just gone.


Rosie Knight Dying.


Jason Concepcion And. And you have to wonder, is in the immortal now because we drank from the cup.


Rosie Knight I think about this.


Jason Concepcion I think you have to keep drinking from it.


Rosie Knight I think so. I think what it might be is like I think about this a lot because I was thinking about when I was watching the new movie, I was thinking about it as a great excuse that they could have used if they wanted to recast Indiana Jones. So I think you have to stay within the seal of where the Grail is.


Jason Concepcion Right? Like for three nights.


Rosie Knight Like why the soldier was then the knight was there and he was still alive. And I think if you leave, I think it probably gives you some kind of like you could you could argue that that’s why you still up and at em at like 85, like it might have some residual, but I don’t think you’re getting that like 2000 year old light. It seems like the purpose of the cop is to keep someone alive so they can protect the cop. You know, one of those good old weird narrative cycles. But yeah, I do think that they leave it open to interpretation.


Jason Concepcion Right. Well, before his job was to protect the cop, the that that night Crusaders job was to just kill Muslim people in the Holy Land willy nilly. That was his job. But he crusades were going on.


Rosie Knight Very glad that he is in been trapped in that cave for 2000 years. That’s why he did that man.


Jason Concepcion Wait till he finds out what’s going on outside. Who We go to Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. And by the way, 15 years since Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, same as The Dark Knight. Is that not insane?


Rosie Knight Wild


Jason Concepcion Oh, why is it that fucking nuts.


Rosie Knight Same as, like, fucking Iron Man. Like, what a year for the movies. If you would have probably if you’d have given people a choice of which movie would end up being more impactful, they would have probably chosen the fourth Indiana Jones movie.


Jason Concepcion I think that’s probably like if you if you didn’t.


Rosie Knight If you didn’t know


Jason Concepcion Just based off of experience.


Rosie Knight Yeah. Mhm.


Jason Concepcion So it’s 1957. The Cold War is ramping up. Also aliens exist and Indiana. Yeah. And Indiana Jones has been doing clandestine missions for the USS and later the CIA. The Russian agents led by Galadriel sneak into Area 51. They have also kidnaped Indy and his assistant Mac in Mexico. And they have brought the pair here because they want Indy to find this like steaming hot eat corpse hidden somewhere in the facility. And they think it needs the guy to do it because he’s seen one of these before. Also, the Ark of the Covenant is here, but nobody notices.


Rosie Knight Yeah, nobody knows it.


Jason Concepcion Jones leads the Russians to the the hot pocket of alien meat. Then Mac betrays Indy to the Russians, who, again, Indiana remains terrible at picking the adult.


Rosie Knight Literally.


Jason Concepcion The only one who ever remained true.


Rosie Knight The only real one. And he never shows up again. What’s wrong with you, Lucasfilm? What’s wrong with the Indiana Jones mistake?


Jason Concepcion All the other adults that Indiana has ever contracted with eventually betray him. It is a theme Indy manages to escape the clutches of the Russians, and he finds himself eventually at the the a town that is the call of duty map Nuke town. Yes. And this turns out to be a you know, a setup for a nuclear bomb test explosion so the army can see the damage. It’s going to be done and all of a sudden the warning siren goes off and Indy realizes, oh, shit, they’re about to let off a nuke. He climbs inside a lead lined fridge, which is blasted some two miles away from the site. It comes crashing the earth at like something like 60, 70 miles an hour. And Indiana. Jones absolutely survives with only some light radiation poisoning, which is then scrubbed off later at the local army base. He’s fine.


Rosie Knight I just want to say, this is no more ridiculous than going down the Himalayas in a dinghy. I think this is the least.Bad idea that is in this movie. Like, this is fine to me. Like Indiana Jones. He’s essentially immortal, you know, is 57. No one knows what’s going on with nuclear bombs yet. Like everyone’s dumb. He’s in the lead lined fridge. Sure Sure. He survives.


Jason Concepcion And again, he has he has some amount of of Holy grail water running through his veins.


Rosie Knight Exactly.


Jason Concepcion So he’s probably a little bit more hardy than your average.


Rosie Knight Yeah, yeah, yeah.


Jason Concepcion How old was he? 65 or something at this period?


Rosie Knight You know when he’s with, when he’s actually with the added protection of the lead line fridge and the Holy Grail.


Jason Concepcion Then it will be the Holy Grail Juice.


Rosie Knight Come on.


Jason Concepcion The FBI interrogates Doctor Jones, but they set him free in large part because like a general who he worked with is like, do you know this guy is he’s been doing secret missions for us for years and you got to let him go. Jones goes back to work at Marshall University. But again, Cold War tensions are really ramping up. The red Scare is happening at this time. And the FBI has been, you know, like taking away Dr. Jones personal effects and the stuff from his office. And so the university is very, very sensitive at this time to being accused of harboring a commie. And so they tell Dr. Jones, you have to go on permanent leave or extended leave. I forget exactly how they phrase it.


Rosie Knight You’re out.


Jason Concepcion Basically, you’re out of here.


Rosie Knight You’re out of here.


Jason Concepcion We learn right around here that both Marcus and Henry Jones have passed in recent years. Then there’s this weird sequence where Jones boards a train but then gets off the train. So Dr. Jones is like, I’m going to New York to find my fortune’s in New York City and figure out what my next move is. He gets on the train, but then a biker named Mutt just rides along the platform.


Rosie Knight And he’s wearing a hat. A really memorable hat.


Jason Concepcion Looks like Marlon, like a Marlon Brando cosplay. And of course, is exactly this gentleman is is played by the the now canceled Shia LaBeouf and he this is Mutt. This is Mutt and Mutt has news He says hey, Harold Oxley do you know him? And the audience is like Newt. No, I’ve never heard of this guy. But luckily Indiana Jones has heard of him. And in Indiana Jones is like, Yeah, my buddy the Ox. And he’s like, Yeah, the ox is going to be killed because he found a crystal skull in Peru. This means something. Indiana Jones, who gets off the train and Mutt further tells Indiana that his mom, Mary, who managed to escape the assailants, pointed him in Jones’s direction, saying this guy can help. Ox was apparently heading towards the legendary city called actor he and. Might end up escaping the KGB, who India realize is behind all the nefarious stuff going on in this movie. And we realize it, too, because Cate Blanchett is in the beginning of the movie with a Rocky and Bullwinkle accent. He realized that this is going to be the big bad of the movie as the trail leads them back to Peru, Indiana Jones back in Peru. He’s back at the grave of Conquistador. Francisco de Orellana. Indy and Mutt are attacked by a weird poison dart wielding killers and they never come back.


Rosie Knight Another throwback to the original movie like, Yeah.


Jason Concepcion In the grave, the pair follows drawings of oblong shaped skulls to various mummified conquistadors, including Orellana, and eventually discover a big old crystal skull which could not have been made with human technology. Indy finds Unfortunately, Mac and a bunch of Russian soldiers are waiting outside for them. Indiana, again, is always getting ambushed outside.


Rosie Knight Every single time.


Jason Concepcion Every single time they take Mutt and Indy to the jungle where India is reunited with Ox, who is now apparently insane, driven insane by the Crystal skull. The Russians want the skull because the skull can give you psychic powers and they want to create this psychic army and be champions. Yeah. Okay. Indy uses the skull to make arks kind of same again. Then Galadriel is like, Guess what? Look who I got and produces Marion.


Rosie Knight Shocking.


Jason Concepcion She reveals that she is Mutt’s mom and Mutt is Indiana’s son.


Rosie Knight Whoa. I think they’re trying to set up a new franchise.


Jason Concepcion I think they are. And it looks like we have to say Marion is no longer drinking, which we love.


Rosie Knight No, I love that. Karen Allen, happy to see her back here. Marion Ravenwood. Good job.


Jason Concepcion The Russians say, listen, we’re going to kill your longtime love, Marion, even though you never hardly talk to her, saw her.


Rosie Knight Like write to her in like 15 years or something.


Jason Concepcion But we’re going to kill her unless you help us. And so this means that Indy, Mutt, Marion and Ox have to escape an escape. They do. There is this, like, kind of slapstick gag with what is it like a substance that is not quicksand? Yada, yada, yada. Eventually, Jones the Russians find acheter in the repository of the skulls. An alien reassembles itself out of skeletons. That happens, Galadriel is driven insane. When the alien downloads all of the alien knowledge into her mind.


Rosie Knight Which is what she wanted. So first of all


Jason Concepcion She did want it. But like, come on. What did you think they were going to do?


Rosie Knight Put it on a fucking hard drive, whether but on the phone or something like that. I feel like you’re doing a great job of summing up just how absolutely off the rails the end of this movie goes. I do think the first half of this movie is a very grumpy Indiana Jones joint. I also think.


Jason Concepcion I think so too


Rosie Knight I think Indiana Jones would be seen as a communist because he’s a little bit liberal minded. I think there’s interesting things at play here. And then it’s like an alien downloads his brain into Cate Blanchett’s  scope. Indiana Jones swing through the CGI jungle next to the monkeys. And then an alien makes it. Also, why did they make so many skulls and why did they leave them on earth? If you have these. Powerful skulls that will lead, that will give people psychic powers


Jason Concepcion Classic alien.


Rosie Knight It’s just like just chilling. Oh, you know what? Maybe these humans need to be psychic. Maybe that would help.


Jason Concepcion We should note that once again, Spielberg is gone back to the toolkit and decided that the hero will not do anything to solve the issue between he and the antagonist is in fact, it is, in fact, the alien downloading its brain who who who gets rid of the Russian top KGB agent, The alien that flies out of view in a UFO through an interventional portal. More inter-dimensional portals to come in this franchise. Indy gets his job back and marries Mary in the end. Which brings us to. Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny up next in the airlock. Okay, folks, we’re stepping out of the airlock and into the year 1969, the year in which the Knicks would win their first of two championships for Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, directed by James Mangold, written by Jez Butterworth. John Henry Butterworth. David Koepp. James Mangold. Of course, based on characters by George Lucas and Philip Kaufman. Music. Wonderful music by John Williams, starring the 80 year old Harrison Ford as Henry Jones, a doctor, Indiana Jones, Phoebe Waller-Bridge as Helena Shaw, the wonderful Mads Mikkelsen as Jurgen Vogler. Antonio Banderas. Wonderful surprise as Renaldo.


Rosie Knight I didn’t know.


Jason Concepcion You had John. John Rhys DAVIES, who I’ve not even going to look. He’s back, folks. Toby Jones in a brief role as Basil Shaw and more and more Karen Allen also making a wonderful appearance. Should we try and recap it first before we talk about.


Rosie Knight Want to do it by memory?


Jason Concepcion Yeah, we ought to try to do it by memory. Let me see. So we open in 1969 and Doctor Indiana? No, actually, we open in the last days of World War Two. There is Indiana Jones is a prisoner at some Nazi fortress, and he is taken prisoner along with his buddy Buzz, Basil Shaw. They’re here looking for like a spear that was used to stab Christ. But it turns out that’s a fake. And the actual thing that the Nazis are after is added the anti anti cathedra mechanism, which is created by Archimedes and which. Eventually you will discover can allow people to travel through time, through fissures in time.


Rosie Knight Yes. It is the closing days of World War Two and Indiana Jones and Bazil end up on a plunder train, which is the Nazis trying to steal all the shit and then trying.


Jason Concepcion To go further east.


Rosie Knight They’re like, We got to stop, We got to stop. We got to get this train. We got to take this stuff to a museum. I fucking love museums. Museums are so important. But Mads Mikkelsen look him up at the age, but still looking good. Harrison Ford very de-aged.


Jason Concepcion Very de-aged.


Rosie Knight Better de-aging than we’ve usually seen. I will say.


Jason Concepcion It’s up and down. It’s up and down.


Rosie Knight Don’t. Yeah, don’t look at the mouth too much. If you look at the  mouth too much gets a bit Superman and Justice League.


Jason Concepcion Can I? They should have de-aged the voice because that is the voice of an 80 year old.


Rosie Knight He is hoarse. When he,  I was feeling like he had a cold. I am a big as you know as I said earlier, I love river Phenix this young Indiana Jones. I’m saying cast the different actor. It would be fine. Oscar Isaac. Indiana Jones, Sebastian Sebastian. You know, what’s his name? He plays. He’s the Winter Soldier. You know, there’s all kinds of young, young men you can play. You’re going to have to play him. I was going to say Sebastian Shaw, like he was in the Hellfire Club. But anyway, he’s looking de–aged. They’re on the train. It’s very CGI heavy. But Mads Mikkelsen is that young and viola, and he really wants to Dial of Destiny. He believes.


Jason Concepcion He wants that dial. Well, guess what? Guess what? Dr. Jones and his buddy Basil kind of foil this. We flash forward to 1969 where Indy and Jones living in New York City. He’s old he doesn’t like that is young neighbors are partying and blasting the Beatles.


Rosie Knight His students just don’t care anymore.


Jason Concepcion They don’t care. Nobody cares about archeology anymore. And no anybody wants to do is get high and go to love and go to Woodstock and.


Rosie Knight Sounds chill.


Jason Concepcion Listen to Grateful Dead and like fucking watched the the telecast of the moon landing. They know how bad they want it. How dare they try not to go to war. How dare they do this anyway? Dr. Jones makes the acquaintance of Helena Shaw. His goddaughter, who he, one, in a string of women. Who is he abandoned over the course?


Rosie Knight Casually for like, 20 years. 20 years? Her dad is Basil Shaw. Her dad went insane because of the Dial of Destiny, a.k.a. the antique ephemera, a.k.a. Archimedes Dial, which Indiana Jones gave to him. May I just say yes? Helena, like, runs a little scam on Indiana Jones, and she’s like, Bro, where’s the dial? I want to find it. I want to become like a famous archeologist like you. But your dad, My dad said you lost it. We know that didn’t happen. We know Indy gave it to him. And Indiana Jones is like, Oh, I think that’s not what happened, but I trust you. So because you’re an adult and you’re going to help me and that’s going really well for me in the past. So he takes her to his little office in his school in downtown Manhattan. Sure. The college is there on the street. And there’s a big.


Jason Concepcion Hunter College, too. I believe it is.


Rosie Knight Yes, yes, yes. And there is a huge parade going on for the astronauts who have come back successfully from the moon landing. And Helena and Indy go there and he shows up. I actually have the Dial of Destiny. And you know what? You can have it because I trust you are a bad choice because Helena betrays him, she locks him in and he gets chased down by an interesting collection of FBI slash CIA agents and Nazis.


Jason Concepcion Yes.


Rosie Knight Who were working together.


Jason Concepcion That’s right. Because it turns out, folks, that our good friend Juergen Vogler is in the States now as part of Operation Paperclip. He is one of the Nazis who the US government has tapped to help with the rocketry program, which put the the astronauts on the moon that everybody is celebrating. And so apparently because of this, you’re going to Walter has a lot of leverage and just gets to like assemble his only mercenary Nazi crew.


Rosie Knight To find the Dial of Destiny.


Jason Concepcion Yeah. Under the watchful eyes of the CIA who are watching his Nazis like just murder regular people in the streets and like people who work at Hunter College and they just, like, look the other way and go, well, I don’t know. This guy, like, invented rockets. So we don’t get anything.


Rosie Knight You know, he was he is a Nazi war criminal who’s openly racist to people in America. But don’t worry about it. He created a rocket. So turns out, thanks to Sallah the returning John Rhys Davies. Turns out Helena is a little scammer. She’s been selling antiquities. She’s an archeologist, she’s a survivor. But she doesn’t like museums. She’s taking it from a museum, but she’s not giving them back. She’s selling them to the highest bidder. So that means. Indiana Jones has to go to Tangiers, and so does Jurgen Voller and his crew of like Nazi CIA agents.


Jason Concepcion Who then shoot one of the CIA agents and just kill her dead. And the American government response.


Rosie Knight The only interesting character.


Jason Concepcion That was interesting. And then they killed her off.


Rosie Knight Yeah.


Jason Concepcion So a lot of stuff happens. You know.


Rosie Knight There’s many chases.


Jason Concepcion There’s many, many chases.


Rosie Knight Going in a little dark chase. Jurgen has the Dial of Destiny. Helena has the Dial of Destiny. Indiana Jones has the Dial of Destiny. Lots of McGuffin swapping.


Jason Concepcion Then Juergen with Helena, a.k.a. Wombat. His, you know, his apparently has killed her. And with Dr. Indiana Jones at a, again, a spry age of 80 as his prisoner flies off with the Dial of Destiny in a period correct Luftwaffe air transport plane in search using this dial of a fissure through time that will deliver him to 1938- 39. I forget the exact.


Rosie Knight I believe it was.


Jason Concepcion With the idea, get this twist, Rosie. To kill Hitler. Right. Like Hitler fumbled the bag. I’m smarter than him. Put me in, coach. I want to play as the Führer. I’m going to go in there. I have a meeting with Hitler. I know the date of the meeting with Hitler. I’m going to meet the guy. I’m going to kill him. And then I guess the Nazis are just going to coalesce around me. They’re not going to put me to death for killing the Führer. They’re going to all coalesce around me as the leader. And I will lead Nazi Germany to victory in World War Two. That’s his plan.


Rosie Knight Yeah. It seems silly, but okay. It was a good twist. It was like they, they were like, What about if a Nazi wanted to kill Hitler? And then they were like, But he’s the bad guy, So how do we make him less? Well, Hitler was stupid, and I’m going to be a better Hitler. Okay?


Jason Concepcion That’s right. I’m going to do better than him.


Rosie Knight But guess what? Archimedes is, according to according to Indiana Jones, Archimedes Idiot. Fool.


Jason Concepcion Idiot. He didn’t yield continental drift. He didn’t put that in his math.


Rosie Knight So guess what? They fly through the fissure in time, followed by the hilarious 12 year old Teddy, who is Helena’s is like sidekick and he can also fly a plane. Good for him. So then these two planes end up going through the fissure and they’re not in Nazi Germany. Good. They are in Sicily, which is where they were meant to be. But it’s like 314 B.C..


Jason Concepcion Yes, something something like that.


Rosie Knight Something occurred.


Jason Concepcion And the the you know, the late Roman amid Roman Republic. And I guess Middle Roman Republic is busy laying siege to Syracuse, where Archimedes lives. And long story short, folks, what we find out is that Archimedes actually rigged the Dial of Destiny because he needed help. He knew he was going to need help in this siege to fight off the Romans. And so he created this dial with the hopes that whoever finds it would go back through the time fissure with some help so that they could fight off the Romans.


Rosie Knight And they scare the Romans off because they’re in two planes and the Romans think they’re dragons. And that helps. And also that the dial is essentially a trap because it will never go anywhere else.


Jason Concepcion Only goes to the siege of Syracuse.


Rosie Knight So you’ll go and you’ll go in there. Archimedes also keeps Jurgen Voller’s watch. He’s like, this is useful. I feel like that is a steampunk level time change. Like Steampunk is based on the idea that, like, what if people had invented a computer in the Victorian age? Very, very paraphrased there. But generally that’s I feel like if there was a watch in 314 B.C., the entire world would have changed. I feel like that is enough of technology. I don’t know anything. I don’t know anything about time travel or Archimedes. So Indiana Jones decides he wants to stay. I don’t know why. Because he loves history.


Jason Concepcion We should add. Okay, So it is actually 213 to 212 B.C..


Rosie Knight Sorry. Sorry. Of Syracuse.


Jason Concepcion I don’t know. Like, what do we know?


Rosie Knight We don’t know anything. We’re not historians


Jason Concepcion One of the fun things, kind of fun things that I don’t know how purposeful it is about this movie is. So Juergen Voller was taken to the U.S. as part of Project Paperclip, in which the United States was acquiring geniuses to help their military, you know, projects. And interestingly, part of the siege of Syracuse, of Syracuse is part of a larger struggle against Carthage. But the Romans were well aware of the genius of Archimedes and had orders to capture him alive and bring him back to Rome so that he could build all these fantastic contraptions like the ones he had built to defend Syracuse. So he was going to be kind of the Jurgen volar of.


Rosie Knight It’s a nice narrative echo. Yeah.


Jason Concepcion Yeah. Anyway, Doctor Jones has been wounded in this whole thing, and he’s he’s bleeding out and he’s like, they get to meet Archimedes and they speak Greek to him. And apparently Greek of 230 B.C. is just like Greek now. And. And so they converse with him and Indiana Jones is like, leave me here.


Rosie Knight And he’s like, I don’t have nothing to live for. My son, by the way, sorry we should have mentioned this earlier, but I was, by the way.


Jason Concepcion The son.


Rosie Knight R.I.P. Mutt. He died in Vietnam. They killed them off.


Jason Concepcion Probably because he had a problem because he was trying to knife people instead of using guns.


Rosie Knight I’m saying he had a lot of problems, so that spin off never occurred for him, even though he did pick up the hat at the end of.


Jason Concepcion He did pick up the hat. But will never get to use the hat because he died in Vietnam.


Rosie Knight And that is incredibly harsh. But gave me a chuckle. And Indiana Jones, the worst thing about it is Mutt only signed up, just the piss off his dad because his dad didn’t like the war.


Jason Concepcion That’s the way they, the way the drop that.


Rosie Knight Whew.


Jason Concepcion In the course of his conversation with Archimedes is so fucking funny. I don’t have anything to live for.


Jason Concepcion He’s got nothing to live for, man. Like his son’s dead. Because Mutt went to Vietnam.


Rosie Knight Mutt went to Vietnam. Marion left him.


Jason Concepcion Mrion left me.


Rosie Knight He doesn’t want to do the effort to make that relationship work. He’s just going to stay in Rome. Okay?


Jason Concepcion Right. That’s what made me.


Rosie Knight He’s going stay.


Jason Concepcion In ancient Sicily in 213 B.C.. I want to live here. I want to die here. The Romans are about to kill everyone here.


Rosie Knight So he’s going to die soon. Men will literally fly through a fissure in time and go back to ancient Rome instead of going therapy. Apparently So. He’s. So he’s there. Helena is like, not having it.


Jason Concepcion Helena talks. She talks. Some say, well, socks some sense in him.


Rosie Knight Yeah. She punches him in the face and she’s like, You’re outm bro. Where we going back to New York.


Jason Concepcion And then carries him aboard Teddy’s little plane and Teddy’s little plane, which is already carrying Teddy and the rightful pilot of the plane who is asleep in the back.


Rosie Knight Hilarious. Unnecessary Indiana Jones gag, by the way. I was like, I was like, sure, that guy.


Jason Concepcion Why do we need that guy? But he was there. And now the plane, this little ass plane has the carry.


Rosie Knight Whew.


Jason Concepcion Has to carry the rightful pilot, little Teddy.


Rosie Knight Helena and Yeah and Indiana.


Jason Concepcion Unconscious Indiana Jones in the fissure and it does and so they end up back in 1969 in New York City, Indiana Jones wakes up in his apartment. He has been nursed back to health by Helena and Marion, who is arrived and apparently decided, you know what, this guy is a toxic, shitty partner who started messing around with me when I was am illegal age. An age when I could not absolutely consent to whatever was going on. And then later, even after we said, like, you know what, let’s let’s get hitched and let’s finally do the thing, I guess abandoned me because he can’t, you know, ever stop heeding the siren call of artifacts from other cultures. And so but you know what? He’s been shot in in and has just come back from 213 B.C. And and so I am just absolutely going to put the groceries away in his refrigerator and we’re going to patch things up and they patch things up.


Rosie Knight Yeah. I actually I have to say from the whole movie, that was the moment that really like emotionally resonated for me. I just think because Karen Allen is fucking great and I will say I just want to give Karen some props here because she has talked quite extensively. This was the quote she said, I had thought that I would major be majorly apart of the film. So she was under the impression that originally. She thought that she was supposed to be a major role. She told that to The Hollywood Reporter, and she was kind of surprised that in the end, because originally, I guess Steven Spielberg had been working on this movie and she was meant to be more of a role. And then that changed when James Mangold came in. I would have liked to see more. I thought that was one of the most like, not like most emotionally resonant moments. And it was just lovely and I was happy for them. So like, good for them. But also, you made many good points. I kind of wish Marion had moved on and gone therapy too, and found a more healthy partner. But you know what? They got a nice apartment in New York. The sun’s coming through the window. You can dry a hat out there.


Jason Concepcion It’s going to be a multimillion dollar apartment in like 20, 30 years when Indiana Jones might still be alive at like 100 years old.


Rosie Knight He’s got the juice running through him, baby. The juice is running through him. He can do it.


Jason Concepcion Okay. So here’s the thing about this movie, which is fine. It’s fine. It’s it’s perfectly fine movie. It is a bomb, certainly in the context of its 300 plus million reported budget, 350 to 400 million. It only made $60 million in an opening weekend and then dropped off precipitously. And gosh, let’s talk about why. Let’s talk about that budget first, because we reported 350 to 400. I don’t believe.


Rosie Knight Before marketing.


Jason Concepcion That I don’t believe that there’s any way this movie. I don’t. It has to be something weird going on because there is no way this movie cost $350 million, one, and two, it does not look like it.


Rosie Knight If it did,  it didn’t make it to the screen. I think that was my biggest struggle with this movie. It’s like, look, the movie one is too long, two and a half hours long. Don’t need it. Should have been 2 hours long. Should have been 90 minutes long. I know we say that a lot on here.


Jason Concepcion Look, sometimes I love.


Rosie Knight A long movie. Yeah, and I know movies. Like End Game is really the. The one that made it seem like, well, look, this is like a almost three hour long movie, and people will go and watch it five times in the cinema. That has changed post-COVID. What people will choose to go to the cinema to see and rewatch. And they know this will end up on Disney plus soon. You can make a shorter, thrifty, a more efficient movie, and a lot of times it’s going to people can see it more times in the cinema, you can show it more times and it can be a more bracing experience. This I’ve watched the Indiana Jones movie so many times. Lucasfilm was like many.


Jason Concepcion Many, many, many times.


Rosie Knight In my house growing up, right? Like VHS. Lucas You could not avoid Goonies, all that stuff like. And the truth is, I’ve seen all of them. And this movie did not it didn’t have that bracing engagement, even in the way of like a Temple of Doom, which, like we said, is like so horrifically racist. That would get you an emotion in the way that the movie was made. And then you’re like, Oh, I wish it wasn’t like this, so I’m going to turn off this. It’s really fucked up or whatever. This movie is very by the book Modern Hollywood blockbuster. I don’t even think it really fits into the cool kind of sequel style because Indy is the main character. They don’t do a great job building a new character that you want to follow, and it doesn’t seem like they’re interested in doing that. Like it doesn’t feel like they’re trying to set Elena up for anything here. But it also feels like they don’t really say goodbye to Indy in a concrete way. I and I agree with you. I think the biggest problem for me was like visually, they were cool. There were cool sequences, but I missed that practical. I know I sound so old. I’m sorry, but I’m an old person. Like, I can’t help it. When I think about the we talked about the river Phenix opening to. Last crusade, you know, on the train. There’s so much fun seeing him scrambling around on that train, like having this adventure. There’s a huge train fight sequence there, and it’s all CG and that de-aged and the rain is CG and train is CG and everything else is CG, and it just misses that. You know, there’s a boulder chasing Indiana Jones.


Jason Concepcion There’s a lack of visceralness. It doesn’t just feel real.


Rosie Knight It also feels almost too slick, which is kind of goes against the pulpyness and not necessarily slick in a good way, but like visually actually slick and you know, super producer Chris brought up before we were talking about it and I thought about it too, because obviously they showed the Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning trailer before this movie. There’s a huge train sequence in that and we know it was practical. And that movie apparently cost almost $100 million less than the highest and the budget of this movie. I feel I understand Harrison Ford is old, but like, maybe that should make you question the situation. I just feel like the lack of practical the over CGI, it was hard for me to connect in an emotional way with the characters until really that like quiet moment at the end with with Marion and Indiana Jones. And I think a lot of that did come from that. It doesn’t look like it costs that much money. And it feels like a lot of the heart of the old movies is missing. And I think a lot of that is to do with those those visual choices.


Jason Concepcion Yeah, I think moreover, when talking about this movie’s disappointing box office performance. I think I haven’t seen anybody talk about this. But this movie, this is it has attempted to do something that no other movie has done, which is sell a reported $350 million budget movie and earn a massive return for a vehicle whose star is 80.


Rosie Knight Yeah.


Jason Concepcion And think about an action vehicle. This has never been done before.


Rosie Knight When you said this. I thought this was really a great point that kind of people aren’t really talking about. It’s almost an untested product, even though it’s an IP.


Jason Concepcion Yeah, it’s never been done before. They’ve never put a person this old in the starring role of an action movie.


Rosie Knight We were talking about.


Jason Concepcion Big budget action movie.


Rosie Knight We were talking about this like in the group chat. And like the funny thing is about the closest comp is like an Expendables movie, right? And those guys are like 20 years younger and there’s about ten of them in the last one, Expendables three. And that movie made like $200 million. So it’s not even like there is not even like $1,000,000,000 version of this that has been done even to the closest comp.


Jason Concepcion You could point at like Lionsgate stuff and say, you know, John Wick is older, taken, Liam Neeson and taken.


Rosie Knight You’re still talking like three years younger.


Jason Concepcion You’re still talking about like in their sixties. Like Harrison Ford again is 80 and I understand with the De-aging, but let’s see, the De-aging was seamless, you know how old he is. I know how old Harrison Ford is. I look, I know that.


Rosie Knight I feel like they’ve done it enough times now to know that I don’t think audiences really respond well to De-aging. I just think it’s like just cast someone younger. Sebastian Stan, the person whose name I did not give the credit to, so many people wanted to see him as a young Luke Skywalker. FOR Yeah, there were all these conversations about how he looked like Mark Hamill when he was younger. You know, the idea of casting someone new is exciting. I understand that we had the Han Solo experience, which didn’t necessarily hit in the right way, but I think.


Jason Concepcion A better movie again, I’ll say it again, I think a better movie than people remember. But yeah, continue.


Rosie Knight Yes, I agree too. And also I will say I think as well, arguably a character who we already knew his younger version of, So maybe you don’t need to do that, but when you’re returning a character, Luke, you know, Indiana Jones, if you want to do that, don’t be afraid to cast a new person. Guys, the de-aging is scary. It’s given uncanny Valley.


Jason Concepcion Yeah, so I think that. You know, it’s a thing that nobody’s really talking about, which is the kind of unprecedented nature of trying to execute this level of movie with a star in his eighties. And then I think secondarily, listen. Shia LaBeouf is not the right guy. But one thing that I think Crystal still did kind of do right was pick that costar who kind of ostensibly taking the reins of the series. Who made. I love Phoebe Waller-bridge. I’m not sure that that’s the right actor. And she’s good in this role.


Rosie Knight She’s good. But it’s also like I thought there was some cool aspects of the idea of Helena kind of being a criminal and stuff and not necessarily having. But it didn’t grab me as a character I wanted to particularly know more about or I would have liked to see a younger, more action focused star, Ella Lynskey. I love you. I’m always trying to get you these roles, but like.


Jason Concepcion Someone buzzier, I’m just saying, like, if you’re thinking about making this.


Rosie Knight Someone who’s.


Jason Concepcion Reported $350 million back.


Rosie Knight I want to see someone who’s doing stunts. If Harrison can’t do stunts give a young person the stunts.


Jason Concepcion Someone’s got to do them.


Rosie Knight Someone’s got to see it. Someone’s got to do a stunt. Please. I just want to see one stunt. You know? I think. So what do you. I feel like you made another great point more. We talked about this bike before, which you kind of were like. I think it is also about quality. These box office numbers, you know.


Jason Concepcion It’s not a good look at the end of the day to make the movie.


Rosie Knight I feel like that. I feel like that is really like a big problem with The Flash. I feel like if they’d have made a really great movie, even despite the controversies or the runtime or anything else, people will find it and go to it. Look at something like Element or I have yet to see it. But that Pixar movie, Pixar movie, the movie didn’t do well in its opening run. It was Pixar’s biggest flop, especially if you consider inflation since, you know, Toy Story, which obviously was an untested first movie. So that didn’t make a lot of money the way Pixar movies do now. But every week that movie has been making money because it had an A minus CINEMASCORE, I believe, and families are going to see it and it is still finding an audience now. Well, will still be a loss leader, maybe, but I think that the quality of it and the fact people want to see the film tells you everything you need to know about it. There’s a reason Spider-verse didn’t flop. It was fucking brilliant. Like, I feel like they’re too concerned about the IP and not as concerned about telling a good story.


Jason Concepcion Yeah, that to me is really when people talk about IP fatigue and and Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny possibly being an example of IP fatigue and you know, you can point in any number of of stories about various Marvel project.


Rosie Knight Franchise fatigue.


Jason Concepcion Franchise fatigue. I think at the end of the day, it’s kind of. Like this is dead obvious. And I’m not saying that it’s easy to make something good, but just make something good like Indiana Jones. And our destiny is a perfectly fine movie, but it’s not like, great. And if you want to make people sit back in their seats and spend tons of money and you want to be able to recoup that 300 reported $350 million, again, I don’t understand how this possibly could have cost you, then your best bet is to come out with something that’s really just gangbusters. And this is just not. It’s not. So like when people are like, oh, it’s not a hit. It’s also not a great movie.


Jason Concepcion Great movie. Yeah.


Rosie Knight I also think so. I think something that kind of I think about a lot as well is like, why do you make it right? Is it you? Because so the flash suffered from that because it was originally meant to be this like group. It was generally it’s a flash movie then it’s a groundbreaking repurposes the DCU then it’s not that so it loses the why did it get made and you don’t necessarily get some great retelling or important new story which you know a lot of what happened in the flash as I’ve said many times already happened in the CW. Like why did they make it? Indiana Jones feels like that to me, especially when it’s coming from someone like James Mangold, who, you know, made Logan, which is like one of the greatest comic book movies ever made. A truly great movie. That’s a movie where you felt like, Oh, I need to know this about the character. I’m so glad I saw this story. This Indiana Jones didn’t tell me that. I didn’t know why this needed to be added to the lore. You know, that’s where I think people start to feel like, is it a bit of a cash grab? There’s not necessarily something new. I also think it’s interesting to try and still be telling a story that was nostalgic to the men who made it in the eighties, like Indiana Jones was pulpy and nostalgic to George Lucas and Steven Spielberg. They wanted to recreate a storytelling. Tradition that they had enjoyed as children and they wanted to bring it back and do their own version. Do we still need to be trying to tell that story like 50 years later with no reconsideration? That’s kind of what I was thinking. A lot in the movie was like, How do you tell a cool pulp story in an unexpected, different way? That’s what I think they didn’t do with this. I think they tried to make it too much like the originals, and instead I think there is a cool space to tell an Indiana Jones story that subverts or recontextualize is or adds to the lore. And I don’t necessarily think this did that. And I think people do want that when they come to an IP or franchise storytelling.


Jason Concepcion And then my final thing about why maybe it doesn’t work. You know, I don’t know about if this necessarily led to the to it bombing the way it did. But one of the things that kind of I could have been better. We’re going to cover the Mission Impossible franchise and we’re going to cover Mission Impossible seven. And I thought one of the things that Fallout, 2018’s Fallout movie did really well.


Rosie Knight I love that movie.


Jason Concepcion Was. Was underlined that Ethan is getting older and he’s not as good as he used to be, and he can’t fight the bad guys alone anymore. It takes him a little longer to get up. And there’s some of that with Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny.


Rosie Knight MOre of the gag way, though.


Jason Concepcion Done in a gag way, though, it’s done as comments.


Rosie Knight It’s the it’s show don’t tell. And it’s also about what that means for the state of the world if he can’t be the hero we need. With Indiana  Jones, it’s like I’m climbing up a giant mountain, but my knees are sore.


Jason Concepcion I got to take a break now, you know. And that’s really the only moment where you’re like, okay, he’s showing his age, but like. But calling it out, you’re right. Weakens it. And furthermore, it’s not like they avoid the subject of how old, you know it’s like it’s.


Rosie Knight He’s retiring.


Jason Concepcion Constant topic. Right. But you never. He’s still fighting the Nazis. He’s still, like climbing out of windows. He’s still leaping onto the back of a horse. There’s which you understand is a D is a de-aged face swapped thing with a stunt man on the back of that horse. And it’s. But you can. But there’s no show. It’s all hey, you’re old now. Hey, old man. Hey, old guy. Hey, how old are you?


Rosie Knight Very Secret Invasion


Jason Concepcion You’re washed. Yeah, you’re washed.


Jason Concepcion But there’s no like, there’s very rarely Indiana Jones, like, trying to catch his breath or being, like, I can’t get up or he’s still getting up. And there’s that moment which you mentioned when they’re climbing out of the tomb. But that’s it for the show, part of it. And it and it felt disingenuous to me. Unless they really lean into he’s got the grail juice in him.


Rosie Knight And they didn’t do that because I look, I’m going to you know.


Jason Concepcion That I would have liked.


Rosie Knight Everybody knows if you listen to this podcast or you read what I the stuff that I write, whatever I love, like fun out there, stories. So, you know, you’ll rarely going to hear me say this. Yeah. But I did feel like for once this could have done with being a bit more like grim and gritty. And I’m like, I rarely ever say that. But, you know, a tired his son died. Like, I want to see how that impacted him. He’s he’s old. He can’t do it the same way I feel on this mission. I feel like there’s been some gravitas and grit. We didn’t get.


Jason Concepcion The emotional culmination of this film for Indiana Jones is.Him begging to be left in ancient Greece.


Rosie Knight To die.


Jason Concepcion To die. Like and that could have really been an emotional like gut punch if some of that feeling of his impending mortality was was more spread out through the film.


Rosie Knight Yeah.


Jason Concepcion But you really never feel that, you know, you don’t feel that. And I think and here’s another take. The de-aging we talked about early and get a younger actor. I think you could. I think if you didn’t do the de-aging and if you got a younger actor or you just told the whole story in the present, then we could have sat with an older Indiana.


Rosie Knight Exactly. Exactly.


Jason Concepcion Really let that kind of melancholy, that emotional impact of this guy and how long is he going to be with us and how long can he keep running around and climbing out of tombs. That could have really hit us a little harder. And I think it’s sad that they didn’t. Instead of using that, our our natural affinity for Harrison Ford, as we come towards the end of his career, they steered away from it. And I thought that was a mistake. Well, you know, feel free to see it if you’re an Indiana Jones fan again, It’s not a terrible movie. It’s fine..


Rosie Knight I’m sure it will be there will be cinemas that I’m sure will do reruns of all of them, and I’m sure it will gain a cult following just as Kingdom of Crystal Skull did. Like is you know what? These movies, they ebb and flow. It wasn’t the great joyous send off that I would hope it would be and I would if it were if I felt like it was for a different generation or something. I actually saw it in a Earlybird screening with captions and everyone, and that was like 70. So it was fantastic.


Jason Concepcion Saw it on SUnday morning and everyone.


Rosie Knight Different generation, actually, you’re right. But like, I don’t feel I it didn’t hit with it seems like with a wide audience but you know, I’m sure I’ll find some love and you’ll have fun if you watch it. But it is it’s long.


Jason Concepcion It is quite long. Up next, Nerd Out.


Rosie Knight In today’s Nerd Out where you tell us what you love and why a theory you were excited to share. Or if you have a quick question that we can answer. Cameron offers a Secret Invasion theory. Hey, guys. Cameron from San Jose. Here. So, Cameron is about to pose a theory that I think would make the most sense for the way they go forward. Most Secret Invasion. So, Cameron, I’m giving. I’m saying you should put this on the we were right for the future. It’s what Cameron says. Just thought I’d submit my theory. After watching the premiere of Secret Invasion. After seeing the detainment system the Skrulls are using to trap the humans that they are imitating. I couldn’t help but think this is how we get Black Widow back. Right? Question Mark. I can just see the final episode where they’re clearing the facility off human prisoners and they find a room with Scarjo. I don’t know, maybe a pipe dream, but I’m calling it. Okay, So I’m going to say now that way, three episodes in I don’t think is going to happen in the show. But I do think the future of what they do with the Skrulls and this technology is used to bring back. Black Widow. You know, you could even if you wanted to. It’s like they they saved Tony’s body and they, you know, healed him or something. I do think that it will go more comic book heavy in the future. And the fact that the Skrulls have this detainment unit in Secret Invasion, though, is a more grounded show will be used as a MacGuffin in the future to reintroduce characters that have been sorely missed.


Jason Concepcion I agree, and I will also say in the original Secret Invasion. That. Comic book arc was used to bring back Bobby Morse mockingbird the the you know, the swashbuckling secret agent romantic partner of Hawkeye who had passed away. I don’t know, 20 years earlier in real time and was dead dead. And they use Secret Invasion to bring her back and say actually no she was in skull Skrull detainment this whole time.


Jason Concepcion So I think it’s, yeah.


Jason Concepcion It can absolutely be done.


Rosie Knight I think it is. I think that is going to be what we see will happen with Black Widow. I don’t know. I think they could want to move back to that more traditional Avengers team now. I bet you there isn’t hitting NASA in the same way. But I think that this is going to happen whether it’s with Black Widow or other characters. I think that though this version of Secret Invasion has not been taken very heavily from the comics, I think we’ll see it used and seeded as a way to reintroduce and introduce bigger characters going forward.


Jason Concepcion Let me ask you this, because I think you’re exactly right. And I bet you that some execs at Disney or some if movers and shakers are saying, can we get any of that original cast back?


Rosie Knight Yeah.


Jason Concepcion I think Black Widow is on the table. But at what point what are the odds that we get, say, Cap or Tony? Because I think that it could easily happen with the multiverse. You just go.


Rosie Knight 100 percent.


Jason Concepcion Go to the multiverse and get another one.


Rosie Knight We’re going to see Steve in the suit again, no question, in my opinion. I think I think that’s going to happen. I think Chris Evans loves the character. I think the fans love him. Bucky still involved so they can come back and recreate. I have always been of the belief post watching. Robert Downey Junior’s Doctor Dolittle movie, that he will be coming back to the MCU. I do believe it will happen. I think Tony is a fan that I’ve always been interested, even from before Endgame, in the idea of doing like the young Tony’s stuff that they did in the comics where you could have like a younger Tony come in. But I think we could see a Robert Downey Junior cameo. Or even with the Skrulls a potential return. I think it’s most likely to happen in the soon to be announced renamed Avengers movie Avengers versus X-Men, but I’m sure is going to happen instead of one of the many Kang films that were planned. But I think we could see whenever the the X-Men Fantastic Four come back, I think they might try and bring back those original Avengers just for a little bit, just to make Do.


Jason Concepcion Do they do old Cap? Do you think they do old Cap?


Rosie Knight Not as not like Joe Biden Cap from the end, but maybe, like maybe like he’s like he’s kind of more like a you know, a rogue, like he’s a bit grizzled, a little bit more like an old man cap, like how we would call old man Logan in the comics, but not like I don’t think Joe Biden keeps coming back in that, but.


Jason Concepcion Not like a shredded comics old Cap, by the way.


Rosie Knight I think that.


Jason Concepcion You think they do shredded comics old Cap?


Rosie Knight I think it’s going to be like old man, like old Man Logan or old man Deadpool, or old man Cap. I would like to see shredded old Cap. Just wait like 20 years till Chris Evans old and then bring him back.


Jason Concepcion Thanks, Cameron. If you have theories, passions, or quick questions you want to share, hit us up at Instructions in the show notes. Well, that’s it for us. Any plugs, Rosie?


Rosie Knight Yes. I will be at San Diego Comic-Con this year. If you want to be if you want to come and see me, I’ll be moderating two really cool panels for a Webtune on Thursday morning and Friday morning. I should or I may be announcing something very cool and unexpected, even unexpected to me on Saturday, but we have to wait and see if that’s going to happen. So I’ll be in San Diego. So as always, you can spot where I am on Instagram, @RosieMarx, and come and say hi to me. I’ll have zines and cool stuff.


Jason Concepcion Catch the next episode of X-ray Vision on Friday, July 14th, where we’ll be covering episodes three and four of Secret Invasion.


Rosie Knight And you can watch full episodes of the podcast on YouTube. Check us out on Twitter @XRVPod and join our Discord, where the link will be in the show notes so you can hang out with a bunch of cool fans and me and Jason.


Jason Concepcion Five star rating. Five star reviews. We need them. We got to have them. You got to give them to us. Here’s one from Mallrat42. One of my favorites. My only complaint is that Jason and Rosie don’t cover literally everything I could see. So I guess my main complaint is that the multiverse doesn’t actually exist, but that isn’t their fault. Thank you so much for that Mallrat42. X-ray Vision is a Crooked Media production. The show is produced by Chris Lord and Saul Rubin and executive produced by me, Jason Concepcion. Our editing and sound design is by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Video production by Delon Villanueva and Rachel Gaewski. Social Media by Ewa Okulate and Caroline Dunphy. Thank you to Brian Vasquez for a theme music. See you next time.