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TRANSCRIPT

Jane Coaston: It’s Monday, November 24th, I’m Jane Coaston, and this is What a Day, the show wondering where Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent is going to end up on his tour day explaining why tariffs are good even when President Donald Trump cancels them. 

[clip of unnamed news reporter] Isn’t the fact that you’re rolling back tariffs an admission that ultimately they do drive up prices for consumers? 

[clip of Scott Bessent] Uh. Chris, how much does your arm weigh? 

Jane Coaston: And because you have to know where that plane landed. 

[clip of unnamed news reporter] I, that I do not know. 

[clip of Scott Bessent] Exactly, but you know how much you weigh and you get on the scale every morning. Inflation is a composite number and we look at everything. So we are trying, we try to push down the things we can control. 

Jane Coaston: I’m so sorry, that plane crashed. [music break] On today’s show, New York City Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani charms President Trump during a meeting at the Oval Office. And U.S. and Ukrainian officials say they’re making progress in bringing an end to Russia’s war in Ukraine. But let’s start with MAGA. Georgia Republican Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene made a big announcement on Friday. She’s leaving Congress. In a video, Representative Greene explained that she felt betrayed by the party and the president she’d spent years fighting for. 

[clip of Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene] I have too much self-respect and dignity. I love my family way too much, and I do not want my sweet district to have to endure a hurtful and hateful primary against me by the president that we all fought for, only to fight and win my election while Republicans will likely lose the midterms, and in turn be expected to defend the president against impeachment after he hatefully dumped tens of millions of dollars against me and tried to destroy me. It’s all so absurd and completely unserious. I refuse to be a battered wife, hoping it all goes away and gets better. 

Jane Coaston: Marjorie Taylor Greene was elected to Congress on the back of MAGA, and conspiracy theories spread by some of MAGAs’ loudest voices. Entering Congress in 2021, she was already famous or infamous for arguing that the September 11th attacks were a hoax and that former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton murdered John F. Kennedy Jr. On the day she was sworn into office, she wore a face mask that said, quote, “Trump won,” a reference to the 2020 presidential election, which he did not win. In a funny way. It seems like Greene wound up being more MAGA than Trump. She broke with the president on AI policies, America’s role in the war in Gaza, healthcare policy, and the release of files centering on the crimes of convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. And while her views get a lot of support from right-wing populists like Steve Bannon, President Trump called her a, quote, “traitor.” She responded to his claim in her resignation video. 

[clip of Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene] Standing up for American women who were raped at 14 years old, trafficked and used by rich, powerful men, should not result in me being called a traitor and threatened by the president of the United States, whom I fought for. 

Jane Coaston: MTG has detailed the numerous death threats she and her family have received because of her recent opposition to Trump’s policies, but she is hardly the first to face threats of violence for saying or doing something that MAGA decides it doesn’t like. From congressmen to poll workers to random people who post on the internet, so many people have experienced violent threats because MAGA thinks that they need to be put back in line, or pushed out of the conversation entirely. Mark Bray was never a congressman and definitely was never MAGA. He was a college professor who wrote a book called Antifa, the anti-fascist handbook back in 2017. But after the murder of conservative pundit Charlie Kirk earlier this year, Bray became the subject of a conservative media storm, fomented in part by the organization Kirk founded, Turning Point USA. So Bray made the decision to leave the United States to protect himself and his family. I spoke to him about what Antifa even is and how writing a book eight years ago cost him his American home. Mark Bray, welcome to What a Day! 

Mark Bray: Thanks for having me. 

Jane Coaston: So let’s start with the basics. There seems to be a lot of confusion about what Antifa even means. You–

Mark Bray: Yes there is. 

Jane Coaston: –wrote the book on Antifa. 

Mark Bray: I did. 

Jane Coaston: So–

Mark Bray: Yes. 

Jane Coaston: What is it or who are they or what are we even talking about? 

Mark Bray: Important question. So, Antifa is short for anti-fascist in a variety of different languages. Antifa, is a term for a specific tradition of resistance to oppose the far right that’s not a specific group. I sometimes liken it maybe to socialism. There are socialist groups, but socialism itself is not a group. There are Antifa groups, but Antifa itself is a not a a group, there’s no headquarters, there’s not CEO. It’s a politics that goes back depending on how you want to date it, at least 75 years, if not 100 years. And Trump has erroneously called it one solitary singular movement with an alleged leadership, which he can never quite name and an alleged massive funding structure, George Soros and company, which doesn’t exist. It’s a politics of anti-fascism. 

Jane Coaston: Can you tell me a little bit about that history and the historical effectiveness of militant anti-fascism? Because I think– 

Mark Bray: Yeah good question. 

Jane Coaston: You know, there’s this meme you see online that shows troops, American troops landing at Normandy. 

Mark Bray: Like World War II. 

Jane Coaston: World War II. 

Mark Bray: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: And being like, this is the original Antifa. And I’m like, I don’t think that’s exactly, like I get that response. 

Mark Bray: No. 

Jane Coaston: Of being like okay. 

Mark Bray: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: You know, if we’ve got fascists, we want to be against fascism. So obviously everybody’s Antifa, but like, who are we talking about? 

Mark Bray: Right. Well, before I answer your specific question, the ambiguity around the word is common in a lot of countries. That sometimes it is just used as shorthand for anti-fascists. And that’s what’s so dangerous about what’s going on. But to be more specific, the term Antifa was originally a German term. It was used by some of the anti-Fascist groups that resisted Hitler. There was a group called Anti-Facist Action in the early 1930s in Germany. The specific tradition that came to be known in English as militant anti-fascism really crystallizes itself after World War II. When you ask the question, how do we make sure this doesn’t happen again? And their answer is to deny a platform to fascists, not allow them to organize in society, to have their speakers. When you argue for basically treating small and medium sized fascist and Nazi groups as if they could become the nucleus of another Nazi regime, even though of course, in most circumstances they wouldn’t. So, that of course shows that we are, I believe, in a different situation in the US now than those groups were responding to, but that’s the trajectory. And the irony when we want to assess the success of those groups is the more successful those groups are, the more they stop fascist and Nazi groups before they’re big enough for anyone to care that they were stopped. And nothing works all the time, but it was a successful politics for a number of decades.

Jane Coaston: What does it mean to designate anyone who holds certain political beliefs as a terrorist? What is this going to look like? 

Mark Bray: Well, we don’t know exactly what it’ll look like, right? And there’s a lot of ambiguity because on the one hand, designating a domestic entity, a terrorist organization in an executive order carries no legal power. So right now, calling yourself Antifa is legal in the United States. Now, from what I understand, being declared a foreign terrorist organization, that does carry legal power, and so the State Department declaring four supposed organizations in Europe to be terrorist organizations legally, only one of the four has anything to do with anti-fascism in an explicit sense, seems to me to be a stepping stone towards then declaring American groups to be affiliated with these foreign terrorist groups and therefore foreign terrorist groups themselves. But obviously, the goal here is to be able to stigmatize, criminalize, and demonize protests, leftism, anything that the Trump administration doesn’t like. This is really textbook authoritarian stuff, it’s very transparent. 

Jane Coaston: Well, I want to speak to your personal experience. You wrote the book on Antifa eight years ago. You had to leave the country this year. What happened? 

Mark Bray: Yeah. So I published the book in 2017. I spoke about it incessantly for a few years. And then I moved on to other research. I’ve been living in suburban New Jersey teaching at Rutgers. I’m a dad. I have been researching a book about scams. Then Charlie Kirk got killed. And it’s clear in the aftermath that Trump wanted to blame the left. Then you get the executive order on Antifa. And that’s when the death threats started coming in after some far-right influencers on X started calling me a domestic terrorist professor. And then, Turning Point USA organized a petition having me fired for, you know, allegedly being a terrorist. I was not fired for those listening and are unfamiliar with this story. Fox News picked it up. More death threats. My address was published on X along with information about my family. At that point, it was pretty clear that my family didn’t feel safe staying in our home. We considered spending time somewhere else in the U.S., but as time went along, I felt increasingly concerned about the political climate and you know, if we get to the making lists of dissidents stage in authoritarianism, it’s pretty clear I would be on that list. And so I felt like I needed some distance from what was going on to assess the political climate. The other thing is that my children have spent time with me in Spain. And so for them saying, hey, mommy and daddy have another research trip is much more intelligible than just moving a town over and trying to explain to them why we couldn’t go home. And then things got worse when our flight was mysteriously canceled at the gate. And then the next day when I tried to leave, I was searched and interrogated by federal agents for an hour, despite being accused of no crimes by any law enforcement. 

Jane Coaston: What has it been like since you left the United States, since you’ve been in Spain? Have the death threats lessened? Because I think that one of the–

Mark Bray: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: –hardest parts about experiences like yours is that like, they move on, you don’t. Like you’re still in these moments. So I wanted to ask you, how are you doing? What has this been like over the last couple of months? Have things died down a little bit? What’s been happening? 

Mark Bray: Well, I really appreciate you phrasing that way in terms of they move on and you don’t, because I’ve felt that and you’re the first person to articulate that to me, maybe at all. So, thank you for that, because that is how it’s felt sometimes. I’m in the process of selling my house. Um. I have struggles getting my kids acclimated to a new school in a new country. There’s all sorts of bureaucratic nightmares and things have moved on, which is good. I still do get an occasional threat, but they’re many fewer than I used to. I haven’t really quite come to terms with everything that’s happened. I still am sort of struggling with how to process everything. So the grass is not always greener, but at least for me, it’s a change of pace. 

Jane Coaston: So speaking to the United States, this feels kind of like the war on terror, but somehow stupider, where it’s like anyone we don’t like who didn’t support the invasion of Iraq or the war in Afghanistan was obviously super pro Taliban or loved terrorism. Is there anything people can do about this? And if not, how do you think people can protect themselves? Like. 

Mark Bray: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: Clearly this administration thinks that basically all Democrats are Antifa, essentially. 

Mark Bray: Right. So you’re either with us or against us, right? That framework is old and it’s very obvious to intelligent observers. I think that what is important to say is that we can all resist Trump in our own different ways. There’s no one way to do it. He’s attacking people’s lives in so many different venues that standing up, getting out in your community, organizing mutual aid, anti-ICE actions, educational events. Resisting efforts to change local curricula, school board elections, whatever have you. I think that the effort by Trump is to normalize the fear and normalize the dichotomy and normalize the growing authoritarianism. Make it normal for there to be National Guard soldiers in our streets when that is far from normal. Make it normal for ICE to hunt down Latinx people, citizens, non-citizens, without any kind of civilian oversight as to what they’re actually doing. Resist that normalization. And I think, ideally, we need to push towards stepping outside of simply voting or simply marching towards more creative forms of resistance. And that’ll look different in different places, and I don’t have a magic solution to that. But when you look at historical examples of mass resistance, it’s taken a lot of people, it has taken a variety of different forms of resistance, and it has taking creativity. 

Jane Coaston: Mark, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. 

Mark Bray: Thank you. 

Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with historian and professor Mark Bray, author of Antifa, the anti-fascist handbook. We’ll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. [music break]

[AD BREAK]

Jane Coaston: Here’s what else we’re following today. 

[sung] Headlines. 

[clip of NYC Mayor Zohran Mamdani] I think working for the people of New York City demands that you work with everyone and anyone, and that you always look to find those areas of agreement while not overlooking the places of disagreement. And I think this was something that came up in our meeting. 

Jane Coaston: On Sunday, New York City Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani appeared on NBC’s Meet the Press to break down his, and I don’t think this is an understatement, surreal meeting with President Trump. On Friday, Trump met with Mamdani, a man he once called, quote, “a 100% communist lunatic” and, quote, “total nutjob.” Trump even threatened to cut off federal funding for New York if Mamdani were to win the mayoral election. That version of Trump seemingly evaporated. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] I think you’re going to have, hopefully, a really great mayor. The better he does, the happier I am, I will say. There’s no difference in party, there’s no different in anything, and we’re going to be helping him to make everybody’s dream come true. 

Jane Coaston: Everybody’s dream come true? Who is this Disney fairy godmother sounding president? What is going on? Mamdani and Trump set aside their differences and acted cordially in front of reporters. Both men said they discussed the issue of affordability, an issue both Mamdani and Trump ran on in the respective elections, and one seriously dogging Trump’s presidency. Trump even went on to say that, quote, “some of his ideas are really the same ideas that I have in regards to inflationary issues,” always copying someone else’s homework. Mamdani found common ground with the president without overtly praising him, noting that many of his own voters supported Trump in the last election, a sentiment Trump seemed to appreciate because of course he would. And whatever Disney magic was at play, it showed up bigly during this question from a reporter. 

[clip of unnamed news reporter 2] Are you affirming that you think President Trump is a fascist? 

[clip of NYC Mayor Zohran Mamdani] I’ve spoken about–

[clip of President Donald Trump] That’s okay. You can just say yes. 

[clip of NYC Mayor Zohran Mamdani] Oh. Okay. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] It’s easier. It’s, it’s easier than explaining it. I don’t mind 

Jane Coaston: You know what? It is easier. 

[clip of Secretary of State Marco Rubio] I think today was worthwhile, it was very, very, it is probably the most productive day we have had on this issue, maybe in the entirety of our engagement, but certainly in a very long time. 

Jane Coaston: Secretary of State Marco Rubio on Sunday painted an optimistic picture of talks with Ukraine on Trump’s latest peace plan with Russia. Rubio was in Switzerland to discuss the new 28-point plan that came to light last week with Ukrainian and European officials. The plan stipulates Ukraine cedes territory to Russia, kneecaps Ukraine’s combat abilities, and prevents it from ever joining NATO. Basically a wish list that Russia would ask for if it sat on Santa’s lap. And that’s because, according to Senator Angus King, it is. Here’s what King said Saturday at a panel discussion at the Halifax International Security Forum in Canada. 

[clip of Senator Angus King] This has been an extraordinary weekend, both because of the sessions that we’ve had with people from all over the world, but also because of the communication, as was mentioned today from Secretary Rubio and the leaked 28-point plan, which according to Secretary Rubio is not the administration’s position, it is uh essentially the wish list of the Russians that is now being presented to the to the Europeans and to the Ukrainians. 

Jane Coaston: King and a bipartisan group of senators at the conference said Rubio reached out to them on his way to Geneva and said the plan, quote, “was not the administration’s plan.” But according to the Associated Press, a State Department spokesperson refuted their account calling it, quote, “blatantly false.” Rubio himself then escalated the situation by claiming online that the senators were mistaken even though they said he gave them the information. The Trump administration with another master class in foreign policy. During a speech, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky stopped short of rejecting the proposal, but called for fair treatment and said he would, quote, “work calmly with Washington and other partners” during what he described as, quote, “one of the most difficult moments in our history.” Trump, ever the conciliator-in-chief, once again blasted Ukraine for being, you guessed it, ungrateful, posting on Truth Social, quote, “Ukraine leadership has expressed zero gratitude for our efforts.” It was in all caps. That’s why I said it like that. Which is weird, because typically when someone sticks a knife in your back, you always say thank you, may I have another? 

[clip of unnamed news reporter 3] There was this explosive report that the Coast Guard is no longer going to characterize Swastikas and nooses as hate symbols. DHS called that a lie and fake news. Can you clear up– 

[clip of President Donald Trump] I don’t know anything about it when when was this written? 

[clip of unnamed news reporter 3] Yesterday. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] Well look the Coast Guard’s an incredible group of people I know very well, we just ordered a lot of new Coast Guard cutters beautiful the make most magnificent ship they look like yachts with lots of guns on them uh so I don’t know I haven’t seen any report like that. 

Jane Coaston: Follow-up question, Mr. President. What does the Coast Guard do? Anyway, the U.S. Coast Guard had to do some damage control after the Washington Post reported Thursday that a new policy was set to downgrade the classification of swastikas and nooses from hate symbols, which they definitely are, to just, quote, “potentially divisive.” You know, like the new Wicked movie or whether or not baggy jeans are cool. Department of Homeland Security spokesperson Tricia McLaughlin called the reporting, quote, “fake crap.” According to the Post the new policy was going to take effect December 15th. But following understandable and inevitable backlash from lawmakers, duh, the Coast Guard very quickly corrected its course. Acting Commandant of the Coast guard, Admiral Kevin Lundy, said in a memo issued later Thursday, the guard does not, quote, “tolerate the display of divisive or hate symbols and flags.” Lundy said that includes swastikas, nooses, and, quote, “any symbols or flags co-opted or adopted by hate-based groups as representations of supremacy, racial or religious intolerance, anti-Semitism, or any other improper bias.” Lundy also noted, just to be extra clear, that his order tops any other previous guidance issued on the subject. An accompanying Coast Guard press release said the new policy is meant to, quote, “combat any misinformation and double down that the U.S. Coast Guard forbids these symbols.” Say it with me, sure. 

[clip of CNN’s Jake Tapper] R.F.K. Jr. promised you that he wouldn’t do this. Here is an exchange you had with him during his confirmation hearing. 

[clip of Senator Bill Cassidy] If the data is brought to you, and these studies that have been out there for quite some time and have been peer reviewed, and it shows that these two vaccines are not associated with autism, will you ask, no, I need even more? Or will you say, no. Just just just I see this, it’s stood the test of time, and I unequivocally and without qualification say that this does not cause autism. 

[clip of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.] Not only will I do that, but I will apologize for any statements that misled people otherwise. 

[clip of Senator Bill Cassidy] Thank you. 

[clip of CNN’s Jake Tapper] Dr. Cassidy. He lied to you. 

[clip of Senator Bill Cassidy] Well, first let me say what is most important to the American people, speaking as a physician. Vaccines are safe. 

Jane Coaston: Louisiana Republican Senator Bill Cassidy spoke with CNN’s Jake Tapper on Sunday. During their interview, Cassidy refused to admit that Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. played him on vaccine policy. Cassidy is a doctor and was a crucial vote in approving R.F.K. Jr.’s cabinet appointment back in February. At the time, Cassidy outlined a handful of commitments Kennedy had reportedly made to him. Including a promise that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention would not remove statements on its website saying that vaccines do not cause autism. Because they don’t! Fast forward nine months, and the CDC website still has a header with that language. But now it has a nice little asterisk at the end. It points to a statement that says the header has not been removed, quote, “due to an agreement with the chair of the U.S. Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee that it would remain on the CDC’s website.” So don’t worry. R.F.K. Jr. kept his promise. The page also now says that the claim is, quote, “not an evidence-based claim because studies have not ruled out the possibility that infant vaccines cause autism.” In an interview with the New York Times on Thursday, Kennedy said he himself directed the CDC to adjust its stance, even though changes in guidance usually come from the agency’s scientists, not the U.S. Health secretary. And that’s the news. [music break]

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Jane Coaston: That’s all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, put your frozen turkey in the fridge to defrost today, and tell your friends to listen. And if you’re into reading, and not just about how a frozen turkey takes about 24 hours per four to five pounds to defrost and we are not having a turkey disaster this year, like me, What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at Crooked.com/subscribe. I’m Jane Coaston. And when it comes to getting food poisoning or accidentally having a turkey still frozen on the day of turkey, this podcast just says no. [music break] What a Day is a production of Crooked media. It’s recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Emily Fohr and Chris Allport. Our video editor is Joseph Dutra. Our video producer is Johanna Case. We had production help today from Greg Walters, Matt Berg, Caitlin Plummer, Tyler Hill, and Ethan Oberman. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our senior vice president of news and politics is Adriene Hill. We had help today from the Associated Press. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]

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