Tony Awards, Normani, Katy Perry with Lily Gladstone | Crooked Media
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June 19, 2024
Keep It
Tony Awards, Normani, Katy Perry with Lily Gladstone

In This Episode

Ira and Louis discuss Normani’s long-awaited album, The Tony Awards, Katy Perry’s return, Trump’s crush on Debra Messing, and the confusing Fabulous Four film poster. Lily Gladstone joins to discuss her new film Fancy Dance, how she connects with a role, and more.

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Ira Madison III [AD]


Ira Madison III And we are back with an all new episode of Keep It. I’m Ira Madison, the third.


Louis Virtel I’m Louis Virtel and my human voice has grown back. So sorry about last week. And secondly, for the first time in a long time in the cricket studio, if you’re watching us on YouTube, you can see this. They put me in the fancy studio with like, the buttery Orville Red and Bocker type lighting. I look so tan. It’s like anybody looks tan in this room. Like Mary Poppins would look like tan in this room.


Ira Madison III That’s why they keep Lovett in there.


Louis Virtel I know. Please, they save it for him. It’s like his cryogenic chamber.


Ira Madison III Yeah. Has you run into him since he’s been back?


Louis Virtel No. Mysteriously. And as you know, we do push ups side by side sometimes at the same place. I’m very much looking forward to, like, scaring him out of breaking the NDA. I will get him in prison. I will.


Ira Madison III Haha. I have to imagine being on survivor and then returning. Maybe you need a maybe you need a tiny break from a Barry’s class. Or maybe a Barry’s class feels quaint.


Louis Virtel Yeah, right. Be honest. Oh yeah, you’ve seen everything now. Exactly. And like you’ve hidden idols in all parts of your body, so, you know, your your morals and standards have changed.


Ira Madison III So I’m right now on Fire Island, which always happens to both of us. At a certain point during the summer. There’s always one of us recording an episode from here.


Louis Virtel Oh yeah. No, that’s my anthropological. Like, I’m in the trenches here in Fire Island doing Keep It for everybody. And then the Wi-Fi situation is always a major gamble, but you’re actually doing well so far.


Ira Madison III Yeah, it’s weird when people notice you and then say that they like the podcast. Like when you’re out in the wilds here as if it’s, I don’t know, not a common place for gay people to come from New York. You know, it’s like they seed me in, they see me in, like, Crete or something. Like, what are you doing here.


Louis Virtel Right now? But Fire Island definitely has its own unmistakable vibe. Like, the speed of Fire Island is like, nowhere else on Earth. I may get there in the next couple of weeks or so. We’ll see how my schedule works out.


Ira Madison III But I do love how it feels like, you know, like Cabot Cove. Like just a small town. Yes. You’re just walking past people’s houses, right?


Louis Virtel Except there’s never a murder over there. And, God, you know, I’ve prayed for something.


Ira Madison III I would love a Fire Island murder mystery. Like, Where’s knives out there? Daniel Craig’s character is gay, so. Right.


Louis Virtel Oh. That’s true. That would be a nice little, sojourn for him. Now, I can picture you in full number one ladies detective agency gear solving that shit. They’re they’re like. Sir, it’s not Botswana here, you know?


Ira Madison III People do leave their doors open. It’s very it’s very.


Louis Virtel You know. Yeah. There is that too. There it is. There’s a there’s a very casual vibe. Like during the big party days, people wander in and out of homes and like, you just, like, hear music playing. For instance, the new Ariana Grande, the Boy Mind video, and I bring her up because I cannot get that video of her doing an interview, and her voice changes for a split second before she jumps back up into her twinkly Ariana Grande timber. And I’m just thinking, is she on all the time when Ariana Grande is, is she kind of doing a character, you know, like, you know, like Pee-Wee Herman or something?


Ira Madison III Yeah, I don’t know. The only time I’ve interacted with her was years ago when I was at MTV news, and she was it was rehearsals for the VMAs, and my boss let me sit in on that rehearsal, for her side by side performance. Nicki Minaj was not there. Of course, she landed like, an hour or so before the VMAs. So, yeah, dancer stood in for Nicki as part of it. So I haven’t gotten to meet her. But Ariana, when interacting with the dancers and the interacting with the lighting person was in her for like, hi. So, you know, I feel like if she’s on all the time, it’s maybe it’s just become part of her persona at this point.


Louis Virtel Okay. I mean, like, yeah, it’s the Paris Hilton ification of a certain generation of people. There’s just like they choose a voice and stick with it, though. You know what? That’s kind of old Hollywood to like. I think Grace Kelly made that. Mid-Atlantic accent up like she was from Philadelphia, but also seemed to be from every European country.


Ira Madison III Okay, that is also why I am very pro Austin Butler. I feel like he has taken the Elvis thing, but also sort of modulated it to I like a voice, that’s him. And when you see him doing red carpet interviews now, you see somewhere he was being interviewed by this woman and he was like, I don’t want to, you know, answer all these boring questions, that miss like. Like what? Like like what what what are you into? You know, and, like, was asking her about her hobbies, and she was like, I think I have to do the interview now. My boss will be upset with me, but, you know, like, he’s very, much old Hollywood.


Louis Virtel It feels like a right. No. He always has a sort of high noon grit about him, and also kind of his acting like he’s always giving the GQ interview of a lifetime, I think, to the. Yeah, like I can picture him posing in several photos within the Q and A.


Ira Madison III Yeah, there’s probably an old 1973 Playboy interview with Austin Butler that somehow.


Louis Virtel I’m going to examine microfiche at the library and see if we can find this detective style.


Ira Madison III But it’s interesting you brought up Ariana Grande, too, because I want to say that I was lowkey shocked that she dropped a Boy His Mind video and did a sort of performance of it, too, because we’re in this pop star era where, people sort of have released their albums and then it’s by bitch.


Louis Virtel It sure is. I haven’t thought of that Dua Lipa album in weeks. I know you’re a bigger fan of it than I am, but, it came on recently, a song from and I’m like, I actually had forgotten the title of this. I think it also has to do with, like, all these albums are, for some reason or another, clumped together right now. Like, I feel like one week after another we get an album. And in fact, this week we’re talking about Normani.


Ira Madison III Album, where when you say bye, bitch, you really do think of Normani, because this woman announced her album in 2018 and then vanished for almost six years before she actually gave it to.


Louis Virtel Us, and also when she announced she was giving us this album, it was like, I see you wrote a date, but I see you didn’t write a year. Like, I don’t know what it’s gonna be like. We all had it listening to it now it feels like when people finally got that Chinese Democracy album by guns N roses or something like it, I always felt more in theory than an actual recorded piece of media.


Ira Madison III Fortunately for us, this album is actually the opposite of Chinese to its quality.


Louis Virtel We’ll get into it, but, very enjoyable.


Ira Madison III Yeah. And also the Tony Awards happens.


Louis Virtel Yes. And as you know, IRA has said on this podcast, I’m recalling it. This isn’t supposed to be a gotcha. I’m not Nikki Fink. Remember her? You said you enjoyed Eddie Redmayne in the cabaret at the Kit Kat Club. This new version of cabaret.


Ira Madison III I did.


Louis Virtel And you will get to justify that because I was live it. Exciting moment for you. Hope you come through.


Ira Madison III You know what I will I will firmly defend Eddie Redmayne. Okay. All right. My life.


Louis Virtel You’re the good nurse for Eddie Redmayne. If you. Well, I actually liked him in that movie.


Ira Madison III Also, we are joined by a truly marvelous talent this week. Lily Gladstone, is here to talk about her new film, Fancy Dance.


Louis Virtel Excuse me? This woman, she comes on the zoom and just the first words out of her mouth, like I’m numbed. And the command she has. And it’s so casual and so generous, like, just the qualities I think everybody associates with her. They are just real. It was awesome to talk with her. And this movie is so good, too.


Ira Madison III Yeah. And also was basically sort of like, languishing, I feel like until even recently, because killers of the Flower Murder was still looking for a distributor coming out of the Sundance, lab. And now it’s here, it’s on Apple TV.


Louis Virtel So you will enjoy her right along with us, I assure you.


Ira Madison III Yeah. So, we will be right back with more. Keep it.


Louis Virtel [AD]


Ira Madison III The Tony Awards, otherwise known as the true Start of Pride Month for theatergoers, aired Sunday night. Unfortunately, Ariana DeBose did not rap while hosting. Also, she brought up the BAFTA rap one more time, though, and I think this is the last time we’re allowed to mention that ever on television. Now, in the context of her.


Louis Virtel It’s like saying Macbeth in a theater. I think we’ve done it. Yeah. And we know the ramifications thereof.


Ira Madison III No. However, there were some surprising and some boring moments and some very weird moments within the Tonys. And, honestly, I’m just glad it was a fun award show, to be honest.


Louis Virtel I thought it was for the Tonys a bit underwhelming, and in that I didn’t feel like there were many performances that would get people to go out and see the shows. Which not to say that they’re bad shows like I think The Outsiders did an amazing job.


Ira Madison III That performance was fabulous.


Louis Virtel And also, you know, it’s a really brilliant move. You have that performance on stage, which is, of course, an adaptation of the movie you’re familiar with from the 80s with Matt Dillon, etc. and then you get to flash from time to time to Angelina Jolie in the audience, and then she is just spellbinding. I mean, just yeah, she she really combines like, both classic glamor and also insect like intrigue. Like, I just look at her and I’m like, put it in a petri dish.


Ira Madison III It’s always nice when you hear, like, a story about a celebrity who is just sort of. Interesting and fun and normal. And I want to shout out for the outsiders, my friend Juan Johnson, who is part of this ensemble, and therefore a Tony winner. And, he arrived in Fire Island yesterday to celebrate with us and, no telling me just about hanging out with Angelina Jolie and now normal and cool she is.


Louis Virtel Oh. Which I’m sure you just hated to hear. Yeah.


Ira Madison III No, I mean, I was like, well, when am I going to meet this bitch? Because I have some things to talk to her about. A table condiment, if you will.


Louis Virtel We don’t even say the word anymore. We don’t even say so. Ma’am. You were in a certain table condiment film.


Ira Madison III And what are we going to do about a sequel?


Louis Virtel Yeah, I feel like that’s not out of the realm of possibility. Okay, another thing I didn’t know. Hell’s kitchen, a musical that is filled with the songs of Alicia Keys is a jukebox musical. I thought she wrote new music for this.


Ira Madison III The song?


Louis Virtel Yeah, there’s a song, but fallen is a song in this show, and I just want to say once and for all that I fucking hate the song. Fallen.


Ira Madison III American Idol did it, didn’t it?


Louis Virtel Yeah, it was American Idol auditions. When falling on, you’re like, here comes a bad time from somebody who, like, they didn’t even get too much support in their high school theater program. They decided they were the star is what the deal was. And like the version they did was kind of sped up. I wasn’t in love with it.


Ira Madison III Yeah, I mean, it is a jukebox musical. I think that that is I think that’s one thing they’re sort of hiding. I don’t know why. It’s not like it would offend me. I felt like some people who’ve gone to see it have felt like either it’s going to be entirely Alicia Keys songs, or they’re like, oh, she wrote new shit for it like you did. I enjoy the show. I mean, I think the performers sing down in the show, and I’ve always said, you know, in the nicest way possible, Alicia Keys as a songwriter and great producer. And I just love hearing, Broadway singers, singing the songs.


Louis Virtel The Aretha ification of this quote, oh my God, you know, I mean, by the way, she’s routinely a very good singer, but I see what you. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.


Ira Madison III She is. I love Alicia Keys. To be honest, I’ve always been hooked on Alicia since songs in a minor. Since, Diary of Alicia Keys.


Louis Virtel Yeah, I think that’s her best album. That one?


Ira Madison III Yeah, that one is just. I mean, there are certain Alicia Keys songs where I’m just like, that. Is it for me? I mean, Jane Doe, woman’s worth. But I don’t know when you listen to her very distinct voice. I’m always a fan of jukebox musicals in general. If the quality of the song is good, as in, like, it’s a well-written song that you would like to hear interpreted by other people, and the people interpreting it are fucking amazing, you know, like, do I need to go see the new Huey Lewis in the news musical? I don’t know.


Louis Virtel You know what though? I have to tell you, I was in the car recently and The Power of Love came on. And as you know, that’s like the theme. It’s the Oscar nominated, song from back to the future. I mean, not to put too fine a point on it. Get the cocaine in my nose when that song comes on. Holy shit, what a banger. Also, he sounds fucking amazing. Obviously, if you saw the We Are the World USA for Africa documentary, they kind of pull him out of the crowd of celebrities for a big solo moment, and he’s the exact right name for that. Like he comes through. His voice is so smoky, so rich. Also, he just seems like a really smart person in general. Also, Jimmy Kimmel, whom I work for, is obsessed with Huey Lewis, and he’s just around sometimes, so I do see him.


Ira Madison III Okay. Always bringing the news.


Louis Virtel Yeah, right. So what Jimmy told me about Huey Lewis and the news that I did not know their albums for a while. Like he has an album called sports. And then there was a different album called. Whether it’s because those are different sections of the news.


Ira Madison III Okay, I stick. I love that.


Louis Virtel He committed more of a stick than like, Sufjan Stevens. Did. You know what I mean?


Ira Madison III Wait, I mean, is there one called traffic?


Louis Virtel I would love one of the called the funny papers or whatever. Yeah, no, but I appreciate the effort. Now, we also need to talk about Ariana DeBose opening song. First of all, the woman looks amazing, of course, but that song, what was it called? You’re here for you or we’re here for you or You Belong or whatever it was. So giving, like CBS Network showcase song, you know, we’re like, they get all the stars ahead of the big season. Like, here’s Phylicia Rashad dancing about the new season of television, and you’re so dorky, and I thi I feel like it must be said, obviously people associate Broadway and Broadway people with a kind of darkness. I’m sorry, I think, quote unquote cringe. Things are good for this generation. I need them to sit and watch things that make them squirm and think. We’re all a little talk of it, and we’re all being a little too vulnerable right now because they’re I. Remove. I’ve had it with that. I’m done with that pose. I find it not that funny anymore. Just be cheesy and sit and watch a variety show. Go watch fucking like Carol Burnett sketches from the 70s and Carpenter specials, etc.. I need you guys living in cringe.


Ira Madison III Yeah, well, I think Gen Z is going to run out to watch the carpenters specials. I think they’d be very interested in Karen Carpenters story, to be honest. That’s true. So yeah, you’re right there. I love the idea of sort of cringe worthy theater things. I mean, there’s just something quote unquote cringe worthy about bursting in song anyway, right? About loving musical theater, genuinely about, I don’t know, me going to fucking Marie’s crisis in the middle of the week and singing along to show tunes with other people. Like, it doesn’t seem necessarily cool, but I don’t know, it’s fucking fun. I did show tunes on Sunday in Fire Island and, it’s just fun belting, The Wizard and I with your friends. Totally. You know.


Louis Virtel Also a phrase that’s coming back or that at least my friend Jordan says all the time queening out. We need some queening out these days. It makes me laugh every time I say it. Come on. Queens.


Ira Madison III Where the queens?


Louis Virtel Yeah, right.


Ira Madison III Yeah. Where are the queens? Okay, the queens are not going home on Drag Race. So we need everyone else to step up to the plate. I think I called that fucking season. John Paul starts.


Louis Virtel Yeah. Drag race people just, like, on stage, like stationary. Not going anywhere. Yeah.


Ira Madison III I truly have not paid attention to a single bit of Drag Race because I’m sorry, it’s not a competition show if no one’s going home.


Louis Virtel And I feel like if nobody’s going to go home, they better be the best of the best. And while these are talented queens, I enjoy them. It’s just not quite the level of that other All-Stars where it was like the Alaskas and Jynx, monsoon, whatever, where it’s like, I have to see what they do every week and it would be a crime to eliminate them. Like these screens are still at the stage where an elimination would bring necessary drama.


Ira Madison III And because no one’s being eliminated, people are turning in some. There’s been some abysmal performances that I did see. And it’s if you’re not going to be critiqued, you’re going home, then what are we even doing here?


Louis Virtel Yeah. That’s tough. That’s tough. I do feel like there should have been critiques also at the Tonys. Hahahahahahaha!


Ira Madison III Here we go.


Louis Virtel Just a panel of people being like, not sure about that, Eddie. Let’s start there. Okay, so as you know, cabaret for let’s talk about the musical film. Wonderful film. Liza minnelli, perhaps the greatest nepo baby performance of all time. And, you know, I’m a Jane Fonda, Stan. It’s crazy that I would admit that you got your Joel Gray in the movie playing the MC who’s twisted and, you know, a showman, and then also downright evil. They play both sides of that, too. A plum in this version. And you’ll have to explain this to me. I think what Eddie Redmayne is doing is evoking some sort of mime from, like, maybe France or something, and like that time, like 2030s, whatever. But also there’s something about his performance which starts in extreme close up. And I want to say they made an error right there, starting with that. But in this performance, the way he moves in down to his facial expressions, it was it reminded me of an animatronic and also a little bit of computer generated graphics. And I feel like there’s something uncanny valley about the way he was moving that I felt was unsettling. And maybe we’re judging that as opposed to what he. But the artistry of the performance in a way. But I just want to say I wanted to kill it with fire.


Ira Madison III Okay. So you’re saying he was giving Clippy, you know. Yes. I see you’re writing an essay.


Louis Virtel Talk about a queen. Oh my god here comes Clippy and he has things to say about your document. Move this along. He says.


Ira Madison III I think that the presentation of him did not really represent, what I saw on stage. And.


Louis Virtel Okay, wall, I will offer.


Ira Madison III The show is very much it, you know, this whole dust bowl mime sort of like thing. And I don’t like the full production because I feel like it sort of takes away from the entire show. Yeah, to be honest. But I think that because I feel like this show was swallowed up by like this whole concept that is happening within the Kit-Kat club of it all. I found Eddie at least alluring and interesting to watch on stage, as opposed to the rest of the show just feeling very much not like cabaret at all.


Louis Virtel Yeah, it feels more like an execution of like, a concept that could belong to almost any other play and they just associated it with, they decided to affix it to cabaret basically.


Ira Madison III Yeah. I mean, that British shit, you know, they love it over there, right. But I think it’s it’s also this is the thing that I learned in college, to be honest, when I was doing this production of, in, I suppose, Exit the King and I had this concept that I was going to make it like The Young and the restless. I love them, I think I’m going to Brussels is it was always about boardroom drama, you know. And so I had I had set this play about like a crumbling kingdom within, sort of like an office, you know, I had, I don’t know, I had this dumb, like, sort of like elevator thing opening up and like a bunch of extras just acting like people milling about the office. Which is also say that, and Shanahan, my teacher at the time, my professor who maybe said that I was adding a little bit too much to the production. I needed to learn how to edit what’s right in retrospect. And this is what this feels like. You know, it’s sort of like. People always make the joke. Wouldn’t it be interesting to see a Shakespeare play where it’s set in the time that it’s actually set in, instead of play? Here’s hamlet in, 1942. Russia, you know. Right, right. And the Kit Kat Club just sort of feels like that. We’re throwing this thing on to it. That doesn’t really serve the show, and there’s too much busyness going on that takes away from it, because also the theater itself, they built out the back of the stage so that they can add people like watching it. It’s almost like it’s in the round. I just think there’s too many audience members. It’s too big, you’re playing to too much, and it just feels like the entire show, when you have the smaller moments, are swallowed up by the mess. Which is just all to say that Eddie Redmayne being messy is one of the only parts of the show that’s kind of enjoyable.


Louis Virtel Oh, that okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I will say, in general, when it comes to a play’s take on material, especially if it’s a revival or something, I think how I judge whether it’s a success is, does it feel like an approach to the material or just a concerned. And I feel like approach is like the angle that theater directors should take, like, how are we honoring what’s there and shaping it and illuminating it? Not like sort of doing this thing that stands along side it. Now, that said, to get back to fun Quincy things, Jonathan Groff and Daniel Radcliffe and Lindsay Mendez, the stars of the Merrily We Roll Along, revival. Their energy is, to me, what the Tonys are all about. There was a giddiness about the three of them. That was, first of all, there’s obviously a sweetness towards Jonathan Groff, who had not won a Tony before and is just this mainstay on, the Great Way, where Daniel Radcliffe, who you know, was has been on Broadway before, and now has his big moment. There’s just something about the three of them, like they should work together again. I hope this isn’t the end for them.


Ira Madison III I love that show so much, and seeing them on stage perform, it kind of evokes, Singin in the rain.


Louis Virtel Yeah. Oh my God. Good morning.


Ira Madison III You know? Yeah, it’s like that. Their entire energy is. Good morning.


Louis Virtel Yeah, right. Stepping on a couch and, like, dancing like that.


Ira Madison III And I think that that is true. That is those three watching them on stage or listening to Jonathan Groff speech. That is the shit that, is going to turn a, like, middle schooler, high schooler into the next theater performer, that we’re standing, you know, they are watching that they are like being moved by that and saying like, oh, this love of theater, this corniness, this fun shit that I love singing Sondheim with my friends. That is what’s going to make me want to pursue that as a career in New York.


Louis Virtel Totally, totally. How did you feel about, what kind of awards stereophonic pulled that I know you’re a big stereophonic, Stan.


Ira Madison III I was very ecstatic for stereophonic as well. You know, I would like, shout out to Juliana Canfield.


Louis Virtel Our girl. Yes.


Ira Madison III Yeah, for being part of this, you know, well, Butler for, you know, from Arcade Fire writing that amazing music. I have a couple friends who were producers on this. It’s sort of. It’s been nice to celebrate the show, and it’s also been nice to have friends who are involved in the show and having seen it from not from conception, but seeing it from last year when it was at Playwrights Horizon, you know, and it was just a buzzy show that some people were like, oh, this is really good. And some people were like, it’s three hours long. And me being like, actually, I’m fucking obsessed with this show. And then it translating to Broadway and then seeing it again. That’s just something I really enjoy about theater in and of itself, you know, as opposed to a film where, you know, you maybe see once and then you see it again, it’s the same thing. But, you know, seeing people working on a project and, you know, seeing them on stage and seeing how their performances evolve, from one theater to the next. It’s just it’s really fun. It’s just why I love theater. I’m so happy for a stereophonic and that a play, a play is getting this much buzz, to be honest. And it’s not one that’s getting so much buzz because, like, I don’t know, Julia Roberts is in it.


Louis Virtel Yeah, right. No, it’s just the material itself that’s being, highlighted. I also want to say something that’s awesome about the Tonys is that there’s this one layer of interest for people who live near or get to see a lot of Broadway, which is, like you said, you get to watch the evolution of certain projects. Maybe you saw an earlier version of it, and then you see this other now it’s being celebrated on stage, and on TV in this way. And then for home viewers or like award show devotees, someone like me who, you know, obviously doesn’t get to see all these plays. I think something that’s awesome is you’re not inundated with the awards season campaigning. Not that I don’t like that stuff and not that I’m not interested in it, but it’s nice to sort of just drop in on a. World, basically a subculture, and see what these people have been up to and sort of just root for, you know, productions based on what you are, what you think they are or like the nobility of the projects. Or maybe you’ve seen these actors in other things before. It’s just kind of nice to see something where I’m like, I’m basing my guess is not on 80 precedents that have been set before us and the 80 award shows we’ve already watched.


Ira Madison III Yeah. And it’s it’s interesting, like even I attended a, like, sort of for your consideration thing for stereophonic, but it was really just performing some of the songs from the show. Yeah. You know, and it wasn’t that it didn’t have the whole feel of, you know, Oscar campaign season was. I’m sure it does if you’re, like, entrenched in it. And I’m sure it’s annoying, but, it is nice to just sort of drop in and see these shows. And I feel like there’s so many shows, obviously, that I have never seen. But you remember their Tony performance, you know, and sort of like, that is always going to stick with you, for a show or get you interested in it. And I think that the one thing the Tonys do better than kind of the Oscars, to be honest, is the fact that, you are really sort of advertising the show, in a way that the movies don’t, you know? You know, you you are seeing it.


Louis Virtel Right? Yeah. Especially nowadays, the Oscars. You might not even get clips of the movies, anymore. One more thing I want to say about the Tonys. I was kind of blown away by the cheesiness of the Tommy performance. Like you’re telling me Pete Townsend is involved with this show? Like, this doesn’t remind me of the rock album Tommy at all, or the movie Tommy, which has one of the craziest Best Actress nominations of all time. Ann-Margret, watch that movie. Like, there is just not another slot in Oscar history that is like that. That’s very unusual. But to say this performance of Pinball Wizard was glorified is like understating the matter. It was just pure, like Newsies energy ushering the songs of Tommy at, you know.


Ira Madison III Yeah, I think the show is, like, truly bonkers and crazy and fun. So I’m all on board for it, but I can see how. It does look a little goofy, I think. What’s your top ten from the beginning of the show? I’ve just I was I’m along for the ride.


Louis Virtel Yeah. I mean, again, if you see all the if you see the whole thing in sequence. Yes. It’s just it’s very surprising if you’re a fan of that album. You know, it just it’s a completely different vibe. You know, it’s it’s like you’re hearing the Pitch Perfect cast as covering Tommy or something. I have no idea why.


Ira Madison III On the flip side, my introduction to Tommy was. Alex Newell performing it on Glee, the Pinball Wizard.


Louis Virtel Oh, maybe that was what sparked this whole thing. If Alex Newell is involved, that is only a good thing.


Ira Madison III Yeah, that’s honestly one of my favorite performers as a pinball wizard. So if you have not seen that, look it up on YouTube. Yeah. It’s great.


Louis Virtel And I will just say to close this out and in regards to Pride Month and Glee, please go and look up Gwyneth Paltrow’s version of Party All the time, which I, I’m sorry to say has become one of my maybe top 20 pride anthems.


Ira Madison III Yeah, I mean, look at that. And I think maybe I even brought this up last week, but like, people who stopped watching Glee before they went to New York. Like, if you’re missing out on Kate Hudson in Glee, like, you really need to go and search for these clips, because the concept of Kate Hudson being a dance teacher, basically having beef with this, eight, 17, 18 year old girl trying to fuck her boyfriend is truly wild. Great performance from Kate Hudson.


Louis Virtel And also, we’ve just discovered recently that Kate Hudson, who now has new music out, is a fucking fabulous singer again. Now, I, of course remember her in nine being a wonderful singer or whatever, but she covered Voices Carrie by Til Tuesday and so she said, Louis, forget this one’s for you. And I was sitting upright and paying attention. It is an amazing cover. She did it for Howard Stern.


Ira Madison III Yeah, she’s a talent.


Louis Virtel Yeah, she’s just one of those people like Gwyneth Paltrow. You know, the Napo thing where they did a lot early. And so I think after a while that it’s like, well, yeah, I already did it. Like, I don’t, I’m not like restless to produce three movies a year or three projects a year or whatever. And so you get something from her when you get something for her. She has her Fabletics thing. And, you know, I like wearing, you know, a sexy black tie when I work out. So that speaks to me too.


Ira Madison III Also, she’s kind of a chill celebrity. I mean, chill in the sense that, every celebrity who lives in New York is somewhat chiller then. Like celebrities who live in LA, because you can be sitting in the West Village, having brunch and just see her, you know, walking by with her kid or like with her husband or something. And there’s just this sort of dissonance in celebrities who do that in New York, because they know that, 98% of the time, like, no one’s going to stop them.


Louis Virtel Yeah, right. That says she really should do a project with Goldie at some point. I mean, TikTok, but.


Ira Madison III I mean, I don’t want to say we’re running out of time here, you know? But like, honestly, her and Goldie and Kurt like, like, let’s get the whole family. Yeah. You know.


Louis Virtel She’s doing that podcast with her brother. Everyone’s invited. Come on.


Ira Madison III Yeah. I’m I’m so excited for Death Becomes Her, by the way.


Louis Virtel Oh of course.


Ira Madison III Which is coming to Broadway. So, that’s something like that, you know? Yeah. I don’t know.


Louis Virtel Yeah. Overboard. I have no idea. Lots of Goldie projects that could be mined here. I think Private Benjamin should probably be a musical, honestly.


Ira Madison III I feel like that’s probably in the ether somewhere. The other thing about the Tonys, too, is that I just want to lastly say is that it’s so interesting, like knowing how, like overstuffed the season is and then knowing, like, so much other shit that’s coming to. Yeah. You know, death becomes harder, for instance, and then like, even knowing shows. That, especially musicals, musicals, arts workshops outside of New York, like often like in other cities and like, you know that they’re coming like we know that Vanessa Williams, is going to be transferring from London in The Devil Wears Prada. Right. And then also there is Titus.


Louis Virtel That is Burgess. Yeah.


Ira Madison III Yes. Is working with, I think, another Kimmy Schmidt writer on. There’s a Preacher’s Wife musical coming on, apparently is very fucking good, you know? So it’s stuff like that is fun to hear about. And I think one benefit that people who live in cities that aren’t New York get is you get to see, like a random show like that in Chicago or like it’s in Massachusetts or something. And then then it’ll be transferred to Broadway, you know, like in a couple of years.


Louis Virtel God, I hope Titus is the preacher’s wife. I would love that. That is exactly right.


Ira Madison III I also need to rewatch that movie, because I tried to explain the plot to someone, and I realize I don’t know how much I actually remember about The Preacher’s Wife besides the music.


Louis Virtel And also I’ve seen the, the movie. It’s based on The Bishop’s Wife more recently than I’ve seen that, so I probably need to be reacquainted.


Ira Madison III I’ve never seen that song.


Louis Virtel Of the 40s.


Ira Madison III Okay, I’ll watch both.


Louis Virtel Great.


Ira Madison III All right, when we’re back, we’re joined by Lily Gladstone.




Ira Madison III So we are so honored to welcome this week’s guest. She is a phenomenal talent, known for her work in films like Certain Women and First Cow, and her name was the name of last year’s award season after an unforgettable performance in killers of the Flower Moon. Here to discuss her upcoming film, Fancy Dance. Please welcome to Keep It, Lily Gladstone.


Lily Gladstone Hi. Thank you so much for having me.


Ira Madison III Thank you for being here.


Louis Virtel Oh my gosh. It’s it’s like some people were excited to have. And then I’m actually like intimidated. Like, you bring so much like gravitas when you do when you enter any room, even though you have like such a great sense of humor too. I just like some people just they have a wise thing about them, and you are one of those people. So thanks for making this past award season so fabulous.


Lily Gladstone Oh, thank you so much. So sweet.


Louis Virtel So your new movie, Fancy Dance. First of all, before you even get to the plot of this movie, it puts you in such a time and place that I feel like before even words are spoken. It is an unmistakable film. Talk about working with this director, Erica Tremblay, who has made short documentaries before this, but I feel like this movie does so much to immerse the viewer. What do you think this movie does?


Lily Gladstone I mean, this movie does what I always hope art can do, and I felt that way the first time I got sent, and Erica’s script was 2018. I got a text out of nowhere from Sterlin Harjo, who was friends with and had shot a pilot with and, he said, hey, I’ve got I’ve got this mentee at Sundance that has a script she wants you to read, so great, send it over. And those seven pages felt like an entire developed feature to me reading it. Every single beaten it was. There was nothing wasted. And all of it worked at a surface value for the scene. All of it was actionable. All of it was so minimal and not in your face. Yet it spoke to just these huge societal issues. It did so, so effortlessly. I just I knew that this was an incredibly talented filmmaker, and I was so happy because I was like, oh, I found an indigenous Kelly Reichardt. And indeed she watched certain women and just got so excited when she recognized indigeneity on screen. There’s nothing in certain women that says, my character’s indigenous, but it lives there. And that just Erica was so thrilled by that. So when we before we even done shooting Little Chief, I was wanting to talk to her about if she had a feature in her, if, because I know that’s that’s a leap, like writing a short and doing it well is an incredible skill. In a seven page page count, I was curious how that would translate to a feature film. And Erica, before I could even ask her or talk to her about it, ask me if she could write something for me as a feature. And I was just, yes, on board 100% and didn’t know what that would be. Other than kind of the characters from Little Chief and what turned into Fancy Dance, living in a similar realm, having a similar sort of vibe about them. But she knew that she wanted this character to also be queer. She knew that she wanted the film to have higher stakes than what the short did. Short is such a slice of life and gives you such a beautiful portrait of of this world. But Fancy Dance was able to accomplish all of that too. So when I finally did read the script, I was just blown away. It was. One of those rare moments where you can read a feature script. You know, it’s like, I, it takes me a long time, a lot of times to read features like I stop and think and digest the scene that I just saw before continuing on, and then have to go reread it to pick up the flow. Or I need to use the bathroom or whatever it is. Fancy dance did in a feature what Little Chief did in seven pages. It just clipped along and I was there. I didn’t look away from the page for a second. I like it felt like a ten minute read, but it was, you know, clearly a 93 page script. And when I put it down, I was like, I checked in with my breath. I realize my face was covered in tears. I was just like I’d had a real experience. And for the first time as an actor, one of the only times as an actor, I had read a script without projecting myself into it, without trying to imagine how am I going to play this? Like, how do I see myself in this character? I was just there with the character, and I didn’t tell this to Erica until just a couple days ago, because never did I want her or Michiana and what they did, what they spun that was so perfect and well-paced and just, exactly like the short was saying so much in such a minimal way that works at face value in the scene, but has this huge allegory packed into it. I wasn’t entirely sure that I was going to be able to do Jack’s justice. I didn’t know that I was the right actor for. For for her. But clearly Erica did. Jax didn’t show up for me in a very real way. That surprised me. And I was so relieved when the first lines were spoken, and I heard Jax voice and I was like, oh, okay, there she is. She was there the whole time.


Ira Madison III It’s interesting to hear you speak about sort of projecting yourself into a work. When you’re reading a script, obviously, you know, every script is going to have that, endogeneity, in the script, as you said, this one does. How do you, when you’re reading something, whether it’s a director you want to really work with or whether another actor signed on where you’re sort of how do you find yourself able to project yourself into a work enough so that you’re like, I can tackle this. And then how do you know when there’s a piece where you’re like, you know what, I this actually isn’t for me.


Lily Gladstone I think it’s just it’s such a gut thing, you know, that’s happened several times. I’ve been handed a script with where the creative has me in mind for a very specific role, and then when I’m reading it, I just keep resonating with another role in it. And sometimes it’s a much smaller role, or sometimes it’s a role that you wouldn’t say is my type, but there’s just something nice, something about the humanity or the way that they hang in a narrative, that I’m just drawn to more and I feel just a more natural flow with. And. In that case, I usually just ask if I can read for the other character. And it’s, you know, that’s actually worked out really well in some cases. And it’s, redefines, you know, just just work with friends, particularly plays when I was, when I was in college. But yeah, I think, in the case of whatever I experienced in this relationship with Jax on the page, to Jax in action, Jackson in the vans and doing the dance and, like, going through the motions. There’s this sense, you know, I’ll read a character and then immediately know how whoever has me in mind for that perceives me. And sometimes it’s like, I get why. But now, actually, nothing I can add to this or that or, you know, there’s nothing that I want to explore in this. But in the case of fancy dance. Erica, Erica saw the world she wanted. And she knew that I was going to be the one that was going to execute it. I mean, the part was always written with me in mind. It was always written for me. And what she knows that I can do on screen and what I can do with, with her kind of work. So it really stood alone. I was really grateful to have that sort of out of body experience, where a character really just shows up, and I think that must have something to do with lived experience, with subconscious experience, with, the incredible talent and prowess of, like, the wardrobe department of the production design that builds this world, your character suddenly fits in. And then, of course, and remarkably with, an actor is deft and and lived in and talented as Isabel. Isabel, Isabel’s. Roki really created Jax for me. So, yeah, I don’t know the instinct when you see it on the page and what you’re drawn to in certain characters. I think it’s a gut thing has to do with where you’re at at that point in your life, with what you’re trying to say in your work. Oftentimes, you know, especially if an indigenous character is written to be indigenous by a non-Indigenous writer, it can sometimes get a little resentful that I’m asked to read for those characters, because there’s not anything else in the element of that character that appeals to me, other than the fact that there are native character and my name is doing stuff right now. It’s, yeah, it’s just it’s a very gut level reaction to the story.


Louis Virtel It was so evident as we read lots of interviews with you over the past year. Just you have an incredible sense of taste and also like a real droll sense of humor. I kept paying attention to like, just what does that sound like care about and watch? And two things stood out to me. And they were both. And Kyle Buchanan’s interview with you in the New York Times, one, you love Roseanne and two, Cate Blanchett.


Lily Gladstone I want to say I love Roseanne. I would say Roseanne is the first character I emulated on stage, as the first wife was able to understand the character. So, and, you know, Roseanne was on as a kid, and I thought it was really funny. Yeah. It was. My parents liked watching, and she was a big character. So yeah, my very first, like, character role that I took was an evil stepsister in Cinderella, and I chose to play that character like Roseanne.


Louis Virtel Brilliant. Why hasn’t this been done before? Yes.


Lily Gladstone It must see it again. But yeah. Great. Blanchett. Like when I was starting to really zero in on, like, all right, acting is what I want to do. So I got to study actors. My mom said, like, let’s watch this movie. Elizabeth. And I was just completely blown away by the transformation that she did. Like, I didn’t know any of her other work before that. But the transformation she undergoes, as you know, young Elizabeth to the Queen taking the throne at the end is just like the kind of physical, journey that she went on, the gravity she has on screen, the way you just, like, lean in. As soon as Cate Blanchett pops up, you’re just like, oh my God, you’re so there. And then I watched everything she did after that. And the diversity that she brings to all of her characters, yet they all feel so natural to her. I mean, I think the second actor that really grabbed me on screen and the two that I say are kind of like the ones that mold and shape everything that I want to be and how I want to approach character. The other one is Philip Seymour Hoffman. Like the kind of characters that he would choose to play. The roles that he would take, the films that he would choose. His approach to acting, his relationship to storytelling. Like, I still just go back to old interviews and watch his performances and just I find myself in a little funny ways, just like when I do meet some of my idols, like I’ve met Cate Blanchett. She’s been so supportive during this whole period of time. She was like, really? She was really pushing my performance in killers of the Flower Moon through the campaign and doing just so much, she’s so lovely. And that was it was like numbing. It was like a dream. It was like a dream come true. Like, I have these moments where I cross paths with people who worked with Philip Seymour Hoffman or who were close to him, and I just feel so much grief still. It’s like that, that he has the same thing, just that, like gravity on the screen and the way that he humanizes characters that are so complex that you’re just hanging on, and the way he can also just do comedy. It’s like people forget he was in twister. He was my favorite part of twister is like that. So yeah, because those two are kind of my idols.


Ira Madison III When I think of, you even bringing up, you know, acting out Roseanne in, you know, the stepsister sort of role. I was thinking of this quote that Reese Witherspoon had recently, I believe, where it was, a lot of actors really do well because they think of an actor that they like, and they really sort of try to emulate that person. And I feel like when you were first starting out, or even now, do you find that it’s helpful to sort of think, well, how did this person do a role like this? And then maybe I can sort of use some of those tricks. Or do you now find yourself, I know who Lily is and what Lily sort of brings, and you can sort of tackle any sort of role.


Lily Gladstone I think as a younger actor, maybe I leaned on the emulation thing just to try it on, to kind of push myself outside of my own comfort zone. I think my undergraduate theater training really helped break me of that. And not that it’s a bad thing, but I did find that when you emulate, it’s so easy to slide in, to impersonate. And then are you really bringing anything unique and deep to the role, or is it, I mean, I when, when I would find myself doing that, even trying to like, for example, like carry Kate’s voice as Galadriel and Lord of the rings and to this other character, I’d find I was fixating on that more than what I was saying. It’s like. And as soon as it becomes like when I feel that little self-perception shift, it’s like when you’re in conversation with somebody, you know, they’re not listening to you anymore. It’s like, you know, they’re thinking about what they’re going to say next. I found myself doing that with the characters, and it’s like, you need to be so present and in the skin of the character that people, when they’re saying something important, aren’t really checking to see how they’re saying it necessarily, you know, if it’s coming from the heart of it’s immediate, if it’s one of those dynamic moments, you just have to be in that character and in that was given the circumstances. So I think I kind of stopped doing that. And an undergraduate, I was given different tools that I do find myself leaning on, like, animal study is a big one. Certain women. I was emulating a horse because who? The rancher was spending all of their time, all of her time around for significant chunks. She was in isolation with horses. So like the kind of movements, like the shifting of weights, the like the physical language. When you’re around a horse, you need to be so tapped into because it’s a big, kind, wonderful animal that could crush you, that could, like be a very dangerous thing if they’re not checking themselves. And there was like a piece of Miley Malloy’s story about the rancher where, who was originally a man in the in the treatment that I kind of hung on is like, Chet got afraid of something in himself and thought it was best to not spend so much time alone. And I didn’t ever try and define or judge what that would be in the rancher as I portrayed her. Other than maybe sexuality. But. I knew that I was playing somebody, and Kelly and I discussed this, that, you know, Kelly would talk about get just getting in writer’s brain and being isolated, working on a script and not seeing many people for a couple of weeks and then suddenly going to the bodega and like, not knowing how to talk to a person. It’s like watching the ranchers thing. So I relied on animal study for for that, for that character, rather than thinking of another performance that I’d seen from another actor. You know, people are products of their environment. Not everybody’s environment is sitting and watching film and absorbing performance. You know, if I play a character that’s trying to break through and become an actor, sure, I’ll do that. But, so I’ll just kind of given circumstance and honoring the world in the world view, the character, old and not every character wants to be an actor.


Louis Virtel Before we let you go. My final question to you is you have so many varied interests like you’ve talked about, like physics and certain interviews and like BS and stuff. Just like I love like people who just like, can’t stop having hobbies, basically. And they’re just. Do you have anything new you’ve taken on recently that you’re learning everything about?


Lily Gladstone Soil acidity.


Louis Virtel See, this is what I’m talking about.


Lily Gladstone I’m prepping a yard space for some flat beds and deciding what kind of species of flowers I want to put in to feed the pollinators. And so just learning how to how to, you know, have my pH over here for these sorts of things. My pitch over here for these sorts of things. What’s going to be good for the water? Just. Yeah, that’s that’s kind of the interest right now.


Louis Virtel Perfect answer. Thank you. Thank you.


Ira Madison III Thank you so much for joining us today. I mean, it’s really lovely to hear you speak about, your work, and just the care that you put into it.


Louis Virtel So thank you.


Lily Gladstone Both. Thank you so much. I can feel that you do the same. It’s nice to put your feet in a well-worn pair of shoes and just kind of talk. So thank you.


Louis Virtel Oh my gosh. Our pleasure. Thank you so much.


Lily Gladstone Thank you guys.




Ira Madison III All right. I am fully willing to retract some statements. Oh, please eat some crow here, because Normani is album girl. This is the gag of the century.


Louis Virtel I don’t know how this happened. Why she kind of slow rolled us. And by the way, I mean the slowest. Yeah.


Ira Madison III She is the epitome of a friend who is arriving late to meet you at brunch, and it’s, I’m 20 minutes away, I promise. oh. I got this traffic. You know, I’m right around the block. I’m looking for parking. And then by the time you get to fucking brunch, it’s like we’ve already eaten. I guess we’ll have a few more mimosas. And then that friend arrives, though, with, like, this interesting story. Like some hot tea they’re going to regale you with. And then you keep ordering more mimosas and you’re like, okay, you know what? Brunch is actually fucking fun. I’ve forgotten about, you know, the two hours I was waiting for your ass. And this album feels like that because it is good and enjoyable. And I want to tell you that being in Fire Island, of course, this weekend, as I said. There’s nothing more fun than interacting with guys at a party where you’re sort of like, all coming to like, the same conclusion about something. I mean, recently it’s been like people discovering they like Chappelle round, right? And now this time it’s people whispering. That was kind of good, right? And everyone talking about songs they’ve been listening to. And I’m just why was she sitting on this shit for so long?


Louis Virtel It is weird. And she’s obviously had some tribulations. She both her parents got sick and that put her off of, making new material for a while. But like Naaman is an interesting story. So she was obviously in fifth Harmony and then. But Fifth Harmony’s been over for a long time now. And then she was a part of two singles that are both, I would say, A’s you had Love Lies with, Khalid, and then you had, I think, Sam Smith’s best song, which, dancing With the Stranger strangers.


Ira Madison III That is such a fucking good song.


Louis Virtel Good sexy song for Sam Smith. Disco vibe, you know, and, and in the intervening time, she hasn’t done much. There have been threats of a new album, obviously. And then they didn’t have threats. Yes. Right. The Wicked Witch of the West. She’s coming back with an album. Nope. Right off the bat, I will say it’s foolish to expect the sounds you would get on like a fifth Harmony album or whatever, but like, it’s not a pop hooks album. This is largely an R&B album, but starting off, you do have the song Big Boy that, like, hooks you in right away. Like there’s like some momentum and sexuality to that.


Ira Madison III That’s a banger.


Louis Virtel Take My time as another disco, sort of tinged song that I get. It’s not like an explosive disco song, but it has enough that you could sort of groove with that song.


Ira Madison III That’s from the Swedes.


Louis Virtel Yeah, like some.


Ira Madison III Swedes did that shit. And that actually the same producers who did, Dua Lipa and Calvin Harris’s Electricity.


Louis Virtel Which I believe is a Grammy winning, dance song. Yeah. Candy paint, which is her new single. I really love that, too. I mean, I can’t say literally, I think the And Wild Side, which is a single she released before with Cardi B, feels a little bit weird at the end of the album. But there’s also lots of stories. I think she spent a lot of time sequencing this album and picking what actually ended up on the album. Her perfectionism is evident. So that’s so I guess she’s one of those people, like, if you know who Lucinda Williams is, she’ll take like five years to put out an album. And then every record, every vocal is just absolutely immaculate. And I’m sure putting it together, as you know, a Stanley Kubrick Ian like experience where you were, I’d take 127 and people are gouging their eyes out, but it sounds very smooth on the final product.


Ira Madison III Yeah. I mean, side note, speaking of that, there’s an interview in Billboard recently that my friend Steven Horowitz did with Missy Elliott, who going on tour this summer. And she’s the same kind of person because Stephen was like asking her about music and she’s like, you know, like, I probably have about six albums worth of music that I could release, but, you know, I’m just like, it’s so interesting to me, an artist who, like, has amassed that much work, and it’s just where the desire to be like, throw it out in the world, you know? But I guess once you do that, it’s like it’s permanent, you know?


Louis Virtel That’s true. No, I mean, like, you and I are people who come from like the planet that is Twitter, where we just like, say something, put it out, and we want an immediate response. There’s like a, if you will, a dopamine.


Ira Madison III Dopamine quality.


Louis Virtel To it. And these other people who are like artists, you know, like, I mean, think of the fucking Prince vault. I mean, what is still in their mounds and music videos are in there that nobody has seen before, like people actually just care about. Yeah. What actually gets on the Wikipedia discography, what’s actually, you know, in the list of, canon content?


Ira Madison III I feel like we are always, brainstorming a gay Ocean’s 11 on the show. And where is the ocean’s about breaking into the Prince of All I need the vanity. Six songs. I need the videos. I want Carmen Electra’s album. Okay.


Louis Virtel Oh, I know, oh, we could go through all the mentees who have no, no material that came out or whatever. Yeah, Apollonia, etc.. Yeah, I know there’s more where that came from.


Ira Madison III Well, another real good highlight of this album is, I guess, the songwriters and the people she works with. She works with Victoria monet on this album. That’s I think that’s very evident, especially in a song like, you know, insomnia. Great song, which is. Yeah. You know, that’s also a song with Brandy like this Brandy vocals in it, too. The collaborators on this, it just feels so. But tequila’s and like the vocals on it are so great. Normani is always been an exciting talent to watch, and you can understand what other people in the industry like her because she can sing. She can dance. And everyone’s just sort of rooting for her, you know? And I think it’s interesting in the context of Camila Cabello, whose album comes out next week.


Louis Virtel It doesn’t end. Yes.


Ira Madison III Yeah, you know, just seeing, like, how much shit she’s put out since, and then remembering their whole story, from fifth Harmony and like the sort of riff they had because of, you know, Camila’s old, racist tweets resurfacing from when she was a kid. In and her like taking forever to apologize for it. So, you know, like they’ve been on these separate journeys, but I just feel like it’s nice to have this music out in the ether now. It’s nice to sort of see, like, okay, this is a product I can support. And I almost feel like I forgot to be forgiving a bit because the album is from RCA. And a notoriously messy record label. I mean, if you think about Tinashe right now. Right, who’s having, like, such a big moment with nasty and you think about how many amazing songs she’s had before, like Super Love, for instance, that should have been hits. What was the common denominator there? It was RCA, and after leaving RCA, now she’s having this success, and I believe Tinashe even just had an interview where she was like, well, I know those executives over at RCA are gagging about this.


Louis Virtel Did we talk about this a little bit last week? I was surprised to reacquaint myself with the fact that Normani basically does not like the song motivation, which was not. Yeah, which was not a huge hit like it did crack the top 40, but that was sort of a rallying around her moment that happened, at least with our people. I’m talking about facts, but, yeah, I do feel like it’s always interesting. Like it reminds me of that Cher interview I always bring up where she says, I’m not a fan because I feel like a lot of the time, the women who make pop music, I’m not saying it’s not for them, but I guess it’s somewhat unusual or more unusual that, like a woman’s favorite type of music would be like power pop, I guess as a since it’s such a gay guy culture, I don’t know. But, I was surprised to hear that because I think motivation is just an immediate, like, oh, pick me up song. Like, of course, play that song, you know?


Ira Madison III Yeah. But of course, now listening to dopamine, if you can understand that this is the kind of music that she wanted to be making, you know, Victoria monet style music, like with, with Brandy, if your label is like, we’re going to make a pop album produced by Max Martin, why you would maybe be upset with that?


Louis Virtel Yeah. That’s true. Yeah. It feels like you had no candidate whatsoever.


Ira Madison III That’s just all to say that this, this is a good album and I’m, I’m hoping for. Like videos, you know, or like some live performances, some promotion. Because I feel like even leading up to this album. Like, girl, were you running out of minutes on your phone or something like. Can we get a single tweet or something? Right. Like this album kind of kind of just arrived with no fanfare.


Louis Virtel No, that is weird. And again, we are like a wash and fanfare of all these other albums, like the lead up to do a live album or a Billie Eilish album was like so extreme, you know?


Ira Madison III Yeah. Honestly, if we’re talking about promotion and roll out, I want to commend Charli XCX, who got number two on the UK album charts. Thanks to a sinister woman who got number one.


Louis Virtel Right.


Ira Madison III She Who Shall Not be Named.


Louis Virtel Yes, she’s at eight weeks at number one. Yes.


Ira Madison III Yeah. We don’t want to name her lest, this video, references Taylor again on YouTube.


Louis Virtel And it’s like Louis Virtel says Taylor Swift should die in the following ways.


Ira Madison III And she debuted at number three on the US chart, selling, like, more than double what crash, Charlie’s previous album had sold. And I just want to attribute that to the roll out for the album brat, which felt very big, but not so big when you think about the ways that the music used to be promoted when we were, you know, younger, like TRL. Yeah, right. Like Charlie’s album rollout felt so much like, I don’t know, Britney or Christina or Destiny’s Child promoting an album in the TRL era. Like they would be everywhere. There would be sponsorships, there would be performances. They’d be showing up next to Carson Daly being like, hey kids, have you heard like the new single? You know, it’s actual promotion, which felt so shocking coming from Charlie because we’ve just been in this era of Beyoncé gives you Car Boy Carter. And then by she’s mysteriously driving a truck around the country. I don’t know, murdering people. And, Miley Cyrus gives you an album and then it’s peace out.


Louis Virtel Right?


Ira Madison III No tour. Even. I mean, Taylor gives you the album, and, she’s pretty much the only one doing something with her album. But even that isn’t traditional promotion in the sense that is. If you want to hear these songs, come to my tour. Where I’m singing these songs every night now, but you’re not going to see me perform them live or do anything else like you Got to pay me. You got to pay to play.


Louis Virtel It also must be said, I mean, people are just it’s like Charli XCX became everybody’s favorite. Like, I saw footage of her performing in L.A. over the weekend, and the crowd went back and back and back, and it did not look like there was one inanimate body in that crowd. People have just like, it’s like there’s this accumulating sense of ownership over her, and now she’s having this sort of crowning moment, and everybody’s a part of it. No, I mean, it’s it’s it’s it’s amazing what’s happened to her in the past six months alone, let alone the past three years.


Ira Madison III Amazing to see the same rise happening with Tinashe, because I feel like they’re both artists who started. I mean, they have that song Drop That Kitty, which I love. And they both are artists that started, what, like a decade ago ish. And we have been guys who’ve seen them performing at our, our pride festivals or, you know, like, 7-Eleven parking lots with Marnie McKee and now they are actually, like, getting sort of like the flowers they deserve. Like they’re being respected as artists. And it’s, I don’t know, this this interesting thing in pop music right now. I mean, you can almost attribute it to, like, the chaperon of it all too, you know, like how much like these two songs it’s been so crazy in real time to see how her crowds have grown at each concerts, where they’re massive, to the point where she was on stage in a recent video where, she was choked up just saying, like, I’m sorry, guys, I need a moment. Like, this is all just happening so fast for me.


Louis Virtel Yeah. And you could see why. It’s like a completely different. It reminds me in a way, of, in the mid 90s, when before Jagged Little Pill came out, Alanis Morissette started performing at, like, small clubs or whatever. And suddenly, like, overnight, people are screaming, you Oughta Know back at her. And it’s like, that’s a there’s no nothing can prepare you for that. So like you, you go from being somebody that people may have heard of to you are anthemic and important to people. And that is, I imagine, very shocking.


Ira Madison III Yeah. I mean, I believe Chopra was like, what? Like I can’t cancel or something like a year ago. Yeah. Summer, you know, and that’s just to say that I feel like we’re in such an interesting era for pop music right now where, yes, there are the sales and like the internet fandom, things that matter, but people seem to be showing up in a real way. I rl from live music again.


Louis Virtel And by the way, early music is also expensive, so these people like to tend to make a lot of money. Like I was watching the Resale Charlie tickets and it was like getting up to $400. I’m like, shit, I didn’t pay that much to go to a family funeral.


Ira Madison III And the URL thing is interesting, too, because I feel like we always bring up the fact that, when you used to like your favorite artists like Madonna, Mariah Carey, you know, Michael Jackson, you had to physically go out and buy their albums, right? One and if you wanted to see them in concert. You had to fucking line up outside of the box office to buy tickets. There was none of this, like online. Like waiting for a queue and like your Ticketmaster crashing or something. It’s like, you remember just seeing, like, old, news clips or MTV or something where they be interviewing fans were like, sleeping over, camping out at night to get Madonna tickets.


Louis Virtel Oh, yeah. I would line up at Tower Records to get autographs from people. Remember autographs. Are we fucking done with that?


Ira Madison III Charlie was doing autographs.


Louis Virtel What an insane idea. Definitely write your name with this marker on my things. I can have it. What is it like that’s so primitive? It’s so caveman. In the age of selfies, it feels just utterly irrelevant.


Ira Madison III I know I saw her doing that, with people, like, doing actual album signings and, I don’t think the last album signing I went to was, like, for garbage. Maybe like five years ago or something, but, I don’t know, bringing back that old era of just, personalization with your fans, but not just online anymore. Like giving them actual things to show up for, I think is going to be really sort of what saves pop music in the industry and gets younger people involved in, wanting to stand their artists. And I would love people to be standing their artists in public instead of online and threatening to murder you.


Louis Virtel Yeah. Though you know what else is going to save pop? Katy Perry’s We Are new single.


Ira Madison III Which girl? I mean, we can talk about it.


Louis Virtel There’s a snippet of it, and now I have a question. I have a question. Doctor Lucas allegedly involved in this album. Does he do all the songs, including this one? Because I. I thought the whole thing with Doctor Luke was, if you sold your soul to get Doctor Luke involved, the music would be good. Because this. Song, it’s like, I’m, I’m fine with like autotune sound, vocals, but like, there’s something kind of warped about how she sounds like the lyrics feel a little bit 15 years ago, in a way. I mean, it’s weird.


Ira Madison III Calling the song A Woman’s World in the first place is very, Martha and the Vandellas.


Louis Virtel There literally is a Cher song called the, A Woman’s World. Yeah. From like 2011 or so.


Ira Madison III Tell the truth.


Louis Virtel Yeah, I fucking love that song.


Ira Madison III But this is a man’s world.


Louis Virtel Yeah.


Ira Madison III And this song, someone. I think there was some tweet about it. How it sounds like a RuPaul song.


Louis Virtel Yeah. Which, by the way, that’s not always a bad thing. I could get into that. Not. Yeah.


Ira Madison III I mean, if this were hustle that cat.


Louis Virtel Oh, please. Pink limousine off the last album. Love it.


Ira Madison III So the album was I guess an Ava max song and Ava max scrap and the Doctor Luke work is some reworking of the chorus and like some other lyrics and stuff. So she went to the doctor and didn’t even get like a prescription. And she went to the doctor and got cosmetic work done. Like, this is a biracial tan. It feels like the tweezers hit something and, you know, you got that buzzing sound that happens on the water.


Louis Virtel On the knee. Yeah, yeah.


Ira Madison III And what’s extra funny about this Katy Perry thing is the visuals have been like, so con like honestly, like, she looks great.


Louis Virtel She looks like an American gladiator. If an American gladiator were Michelle Visage, that’s what she looks like.


Ira Madison III Yes. And just the whiplash from these amazing visuals to the snippet that she posted, we’re like, oh girl, that the song is coming out July 11th, so you got some time to get back in the studio. If you’d like to.


Louis Virtel Right.


Ira Madison III Just work back from the title.


Louis Virtel I’m right, that’s right, that’s right. Also, it’s the fourth. So, like, you know, the studio won’t be booked. You can you can take it. Yeah.


Ira Madison III But yeah, I haven’t seen that much goodwill for an era dissipate so quickly by hearing the snippet, because people were actually so excited for a Katy Perry comeback, which was shocking.


Louis Virtel Yeah. Right. No, I mean, and also, again, this Normani album is great. There’s an opportunity here for it to be great. And also, again, maybe the chorus is a banger. We didn’t hear anything from the chorus, so who knows.


Ira Madison III Yes, there was a there was a leak of the alleged song. But apparently Sunderland assures me that he has heard part of the chorus and that that is not the thing that is circulating online. So it seems like someone attached an AI sort of old version to the snippet and acted as if they were a leak, which is, I guess, shit that bored people do on the internet.


Louis Virtel Oh my god, don’t fuck with my hard, quoth Fergie.


Ira Madison III Where she at?


Louis Virtel Great question. She took that mILF money and said I’m choosing obscurity. Hahahahaha.


Ira Madison III That’s when I know pop music will be saved again when she is doing acrobatics on stage.


Louis Virtel Yes, pop stars, if I can recommend one thing to you before we move on round offs. I mean, it’s just something you can learn.


Ira Madison III All right, well, we’re back. Keep it. And we are back with our favorite segment of the episode. It’s keep it. Louis?


Louis Virtel Oh, yes. Sometimes when I hear a snippet about a celebrity, it’s just. I don’t want to know. Even if it I think is ultimately beneficial or there’s a comedy value to it. This is one of those cases. There’s a new book called Apprentice in Wonderland about, former President Donald Trump. And in the book, it details Trump’s obsessive crush on Debra messing. I don’t want to know, I can’t hear. I don’t know how this happened. I don’t want to know the details. I don’t I don’t want to hear her tweets in response because she’s going to have I’m going to guess roughly in the 50 to 75 tweets range. Response to this? Yeah. I too have enjoyed, Debra Messing over the years. As you know, she was in the workshop of Angels in America. Before I became a huge sensation. So there’s some credibility there. Will and Grace. Wonderful TV show. She was in that weird movie where she played the police detective who’s investigating, the disappearance of somebodys kid.


Ira Madison III Yeah. That Debra messing movie is searching, with John Cho. Yes. In that. And that is also from the creators of missing, a very iconic film with Storm Reid and Nia Long. If you have not seen it, like it’s actually one of my favorite movies of last year. Well, then there’s also The mysteries of Laura.


Louis Virtel Oh, yes. And we didn’t solve one of those out of disinterest.


Ira Madison III Mystery was how it got mad, right?


Louis Virtel And it got multiple seasons, I believe, too. That was. Yeah, a bit of trouble. Nat and Stacey, lovely. Show with, Thomas Haden Church. Smash. Smash. Great show, which had two good songs. Two good songs. But otherwise, I do not want to think about this man having a crush, period. Let alone on Debra Messing, who is, I think, maybe the most skittish celebrity of all time. I can’t picture them together. That’s all I have to say about that. I can’t even say it doesn’t sit well with me because I won’t let it set. I’m pushing it off my chest like a sleep demon.


Ira Madison III Yeah. So weird too, because she hates that man.


Louis Virtel Hates him the most. I mean, she’s one of those, like, you know, Patricia Arquette. People who’s, like, retweeting like 100,000 news links about a bad thing he did. Not that they shouldn’t do that. It’s just a particular kind of Twitter behavior.


Ira Madison III Well, you know what? I thought of one other thing. Her appearance in Brown was very funny.


Louis Virtel Very funny. Also, her appearance on Billy on the Street. Sensational.


Ira Madison III Yeah.


Louis Virtel Where Billy walks around yelling, listen, you guys, it’s Debra Messing. And then people scream.


Ira Madison III Honestly, Debra Messing a celebrity that I feel like we would all love if we if Twitter it never been existed.


Louis Virtel Right? No. She’s kind of like. I mean, this seems so obvious. She comes from the sitcom world like a Jennifer Aniston. Just like the entire personalities right there on the screen. I’m ready for a one liner. I have a relatable sort of neurosis about me. Let’s make this episode work thing.


Ira Madison III Speaking of, Debra Messing, my keep it is, related to someone else from Will and Grace.


Louis Virtel No it’s not. Hold on. Who could it be? I’m thinking. Is it Miss Mullally?


Ira Madison III It is. It is not anything that Malawi has done herself. We love Megan Mullally. We love Nick Offerman. American Sweethearts. Yes, I am talking about who ever is responsible for the poster for this film, The Fabulous Four, starring Megan Mullally, Bette Midler, Susan Sarandon and Sheryl Lee Ralph. Have you seen.


Louis Virtel This? Yeah, I just saw it, I believe, on your account. Now, first of all, we get like five of these types of movies a year now where it’s like, you know, Diane Keaton, Sally field, Jane Fonda. It’s just like Jane Curtin may sneak in there like these, like, and by the way, we want them. And it looks like they cost about a nickel to make. And that’s fine. And I’ll see it in the month of exactly April.


Ira Madison III This movie is called The Fabulous Four, and the tagline says four friends, one wedding, lots of baggage. The poster for this. First of all, I said, it looks like something my grandmother had on VHS in 1994, which.


Louis Virtel Should be its own Criterion Collection. I mean to say that, yeah.


Ira Madison III First of all, you have Bette Midler in the background of. But like the four women are superimposed onto this poster, which shows the like, beach and palm trees beneath them. Very sunset beach vibes here, but Bette Midler is in sort of a wedding dress and veil, and only doing what I can only describe as raising the roof.


Louis Virtel You know, that was a silly take. And they said, we’re gonna go with it.


Ira Madison III Do a fun one. Sheryl Lee Ralph looks like she is posing, at, the mall for photos.


Louis Virtel She’s a realtor who is going to take her time with you.


Ira Madison III Meanwhile. Susan Sarandon looks like a schoolteacher who was, like, snapped by the yearbook, like, caught off guard. She’s wearing glasses. She has a satchel over her.


Louis Virtel Her man is very, like, 70s male heartthrob to, like, leave, stare at or something. Yeah.


Ira Madison III And then Megan Mullally is holding the bouquet of flowers, like, with one arm up in the air, like shouting. This photo of Megan Mullally. Who is this woman?


She does look to be about 28 years old. She does look to be 28 years old.


Ira Madison III She looks airbrushed to help people be like, it’s this Kacey Musgraves is this young Lana Del Rey. It is. It looks nothing like Megan Mullally.


Louis Virtel It reminds me of that. I think it’s sex in the city, too. That’s the one where they do. I am woman, right? Yes. Where there’s that. There was a publicity still of Kim Cattrall in one photo. Or it was just this woman is 11 years old. How? What happened?


Ira Madison III So, yeah, this poster is crazy also. Yes, we do get a bunch of these movies, and while they are fun, it’s a novelty for, you know, gays of a certain age. Yes. And I guess the women who got to see them. Can we start putting these women in other movies, though?


Louis Virtel Right. I feel like Alfre Woodard was in one of these recently, and I’m like, yes, you can’t be nominated for 18 Emmys. And then. And then we have to do this. Now, I’m much as you want to work with Kathy Bates or whoever’s in this movie that it does feel like we can elevate it somehow, like one step, like, can it be about like a grisly murder two or something, I don’t know.


Ira Madison III Yeah. I mean, we even did this to. We even did this to Angela Bassett once she was in that movie Other Hood, with Patricia Arquette. Felicity Huffman?


Louis Virtel I don’t even know this one.


Ira Madison III Yeah. You’re gathering these older women and giving them roles, but can it be a murder mystery? Like, can can we have someone make it a raunchy comedy or something like the fabulous For Boys on the side without the murder?


Louis Virtel Boys on the side is a movie people should bring up more often. By the way, I enjoy boys. It’s a.


Ira Madison III Great movie. Yeah, yeah, I guess that’s.


Louis Virtel It. Yeah. No, I think that was important that you brought that to everybody’s attention. I can’t believe we slayed half the cast of Will and Grace. Just. We did not plan. Should I come after Sean Hayes? And. Good night. Oscar. Last Tony season? No, he was great. Actually, I have no no complaints.


Ira Madison III Did Eric McCormack do something recently that was annoying?


Louis Virtel The last time I saw him was on The Other Black Girl, in which he was good.


Ira Madison III Eric McCormack defends straight actors playing gay characters play gay characters as part of the gig. Honestly. He’s right. Otherwise we’d never see a single Paul Mescal movie.


Louis Virtel That’s exactly right. And also Eric McCormack, of course, Emmy winning turn as a gay man. And I bought every single second of it.


Ira Madison III Yeah. All right. Well, thank you to Lily Gladstone for joining us. Fancy Dance will debut in select theaters on June 21st this week, before streaming globally on Apple TV+ on June 28th. Yeah, that’s our show.


Louis Virtel Take that fagots. Straight, people win. There are gods. We’ll see you next week.


Ira Madison III Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok.


Louis Virtel You can also subscribe to keep it on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review.


Ira Madison III Keep it is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are C.J “Siege” Polkinghorne and Chris Lord, and our associate producer is Kennedy Hill. Our executive producers are Ira Madison, the third, Louis Virtel, and Kendra James.


Louis Virtel Our digital team is Meaghan Patsel, Claudia Shang, and Rachel Gaieski. This episode was recorded and mixed by Evan Sutton. Thank you to Matt DeGroot, David Toles, Kyle Seglin, and Charlotte Landes for production support every week.