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Jane Coaston: It’s Wednesday, September 17th. I’m Jane Coaston, and this is What a Day, the show saying R.I.P. to Robert Redford, who passed away at the age of 89 on Tuesday. The famed actor and director starred in films ranging from The Sting, my favorite, to All the President’s Men in Sneakers. And he even founded the Sundance Film Festival, all while being incredibly hot. Thank you, Robert Redford, for showing us all that you can be a liberal and also extremely attractive. [music break] On today’s show, President Donald Trump is doing what he does best, suing people. And Israel officially launches its ground offensive in Gaza city. But let’s start with the rise of online radicalization. On Tuesday, prosecutors in Utah announced seven charges against a suspect in the killing of conservative activist, Charlie Kirk, including aggravated murder. 

[clip of unnamed Utah prosecutor] I am filing a notice of intent to seek the death penalty. I do not take this decision lightly and it is a decision I have made independently. 

Jane Coaston: We are not going to reference the name of the alleged shooter on the show, because I think it’s important not to give people who commit acts of violence the infamy they crave. And that’s such an important factor to understand when talking about Kirk’s murder, or acts of violence that seem to be taking place more frequently in America than ever before. Utah County prosecutors stated that the alleged shooter expressed a desire to quote, “take out Charlie Kirk” because of Kirk’s quote, “hatred.” But he also allegedly wrote video game references and online jokes on bullet casings that he later told his roommate were, quote, “mostly a big meme he wanted to hear referenced on Fox News.” That’s sadly become a big theme in a number of recent acts of violence that have cost lives and terrified communities. Some of these are so-called NVEs, Nihilistic Violent Extremists. During a very strange hearing that we’ll mention later in the show in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee on Tuesday, FBI Director Kash Patel spoke of a massive rise in the number of investigations into NVEs. 

[clip of Kash Patel] We have in this country, 1,700 domestic terrorism investigations, a large chunk of which are nihilistic violent extremism, NVE, those who engage in violent acts motivated by a deep hatred of society, whatever that justification they seem is. 

Jane Coaston: So to talk more about the online spaces where the alleged shooter of Charlie Kirk spent most of his time, I talked to David Gilbert. He covers disinformation and online extremism for Wired magazine. David, welcome back to What a Day. 

David Gilbert: Thanks for having me back. 

Jane Coaston: So, the 22-year-old suspect in the shooting with Charlie Kirk was clearly steeped in a very specific corner of the internet, which became clear when officials described messages found on some of the bullet casings, and the suspect allegedly specifically mentioned in texts to their roommate, referenced in the official indictment. On one of those casing was an alleged engraving with the quote, “Notice his bulges. Owo. What’s this?” That is a reference to I think a cartoon from like ten years ago Why engrave these? Why do this? 

David Gilbert: And I think this is hugely important for people to understand what exactly we’re dealing with here. The alleged shooter messaged their roommate to say that if they saw this meme being read out on Fox News, they would have a stroke or something. 

Jane Coaston: Yeah. 

David Gilbert: So it seems like the shooter was engraving these memes on the bullets purely because they wanted those memes to be aired. They wanted us talking about them. They wanted Fox News talking about them. They wanted people to misinterpret them as many media organizations and apparently the FBI did initially because these memes for people who aren’t within these communities are so dense, so hard to decipher that people get completely confused and the reason that a lot of mass shooters and shooters like this have used them in the past is purely because they want normies, as they call them, to be completely confused and caught off guard by what they mean. 

Jane Coaston: Yeah, I think that gets to something I’ve been struck by covering mass shootings, school shootings, and other recent act of violence is that shooters are using memes that either another shooter used or that they hope may inspire someone else. What does that mean in your view for investigators? And more importantly, what does that means for people who want to stop violence like this before it happens? Because it’s so hard to keep an eye on everybody who’s super online, including me! 

David Gilbert: It is, its this is all part of the lore that has been built up around school shootings and it is one of the most disturbing trends we’ve seen in the last six months to a year. We saw in the Annunciation school shooting in Minneapolis recently where the shooter had over a hundred different memes and names of school shooters and really obscure references written on their guns. Intervention is really, really difficult. This in a lot of these cases. Many of these kids, and a lot of them are just kids, they’re teenagers or in their early 20s, they’re spending so much time online. They’re on their own on these computers. They do not have a wider community support in real life. Sometimes they don’t even have family support. And they can fall into these communities where they get support, they get love, they get companionship. And whereas in school, no one might be talking to them. So I think it It comes down to, in a lot of cases, families have to just be very careful about how much time they’re spending online, talk to them about it. But it’s really hard because this is happening away from the public gaze. We you can’t really monitor it in real time. Um. And a lot of them are private servers where you can only get in if you’re part of the community. And I think law enforcement is playing catch up. We saw Kash Patel talking and saying that the investigations into this nihilistic violent extremism has gone up 300 percent. That’s fine, but the reason it’s gone up 300% is because they’ve just classified this group of people. 

Jane Coaston: Right. 

David Gilbert: So two years ago it would have been zero because it sounds like they’re catching a lot of them, but they’re not. And we’re clearly seeing they’re not because it’s almost on a weekly, if not monthly basis, we’re seeing more and more of these shootings. It’s horrifying and it’s happening on a much more regular basis than it was even six months ago. 

Jane Coaston: Something that’s been really important for me about covering this, even covering Charlie Kirk’s horrifying murder, is not using the name of the shooter. I have seen over and over again how people can be inspired by past acts of violence, past actors. How should journalists like me, like you, cover this and keep the public educated about what’s happening? But not feed into the disturbing lore of shooters who probably think it’s super funny that we’re all trying to figure out what these memes reference and they don’t care about any of that they just want that attention. 

David Gilbert: It’s really difficult. This is this type of violence has been around for years and media organizations should be better at figuring this out, but we saw this week, multiple examples of major news organizations publishing things that they didn’t fully understand or that they misinterpreted and had to walk back. There are lots of people out there who are superb at covering this stuff in a very um, careful and factual manner. Uh, but a lot of media organizations have, especially in the last year, moved away from covering it at all. So when something like this happens, they’re, they just don’t have the expertise on hand and they rely on people who aren’t really experts to try and fill the gaps and that’s where the problem comes. Um, but that’s only one part of it. I think we also saw during Kash Patel’s uh select committee hearing on Tuesday. We saw some of the lawmakers just fumbling words, fumbling, talking about groups like 764. They didn’t, they didn’t understand what the group was, what it was um doing. And they couldn’t really question Cash Patel properly on why the FBI wasn’t doing more because they don’t understand it. Um. And that’s, that’s a problem. 

Jane Coaston: You and I, we’ve both referenced uh nihilistic violent extremism a couple of times in our conversation, but can you explain exactly what the FBI means by nihilist violent extremist groups? 

David Gilbert: So what the FBI is looking at is groups that do not subscribe to a political ideology. They are not left-wing or right-wing. The violence is the reason for carrying out these acts. That is the end goal. That is all it is about is carrying out the violence and doing it so that they can post videos or their manifesto online and get rewarded by their own community. In the wake of every mass shooting. We’ll see instant responses from both sides, predominantly one side, predominantly from the right, we’ll see them blaming leftists or Democrats or the radical left or whatever else. So it’s very hard for people to understand this new designation because it doesn’t fit into their kind of very, you know, the boxes that they want to put people into. So they can’t grasp the idea that there are people out there who just want to chaos, to conduct violence, to kill people, purely for the glorification that they will get on Telegram channels or Discord servers. 

Jane Coaston: As someone who covers this beat and has been covering it for years, what are you most concerned about in the aftermath of this act of horrifying political violence? 

David Gilbert: I think the most worrying thing is seeing how people who would have been supporters of Charlie Kirk, who would’ve been on the right at least seen as a relatively moderate, even though his positions aren’t moderate in any way, for people on the right he would’ve been seen as a moderate. And extremist groups were labeling him as such, and they for while he was alive, they did not like him, [?]– 

Jane Coaston: Right. He got a lot of pushback from like the far right for not being anti-semitic. 

David Gilbert: Exactly. So like Nick Fuentes obviously is the number one kind of enemy of Charlie Kirk. He had spent years bashing him. There was the Gryper war where his followers went and attacked Charlie Kirk at these events, you know, pushing him on his pro-Israel stance. Now those same groups are holding Kirk up as a martyr and they are saying if they’re willing to do that to Charlie Kirk, who was a moderate, what will they do to us? You need to step up, you need to take action. To join the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers are starting up again, to take some action, to arm yourself, be ready. And you know, since Trump came to office, they didn’t really have a role because he was kind of doing what they were doing anyway. So they they were kind of relatively quiet and dormant for the last six, seven months since he came to the office. Now those groups are a hive of activity again. And you see people who may have been on the cusp of kind of joining them before maybe would have gone back to more kind of Centrist or regular right-wing influencers, they are now following those extremists. And if those extreme groups decide, okay, well, we’re going to protest here next week, or we’re gonna protest there. And they try and get those followers who are just after kind of saying, okay, yeah, we need to do something. Then you’re going see a lot more people on the streets. And when you see a lot more people on the streets and they’re armed and people are really, really angry about this, then that’s a really troubling situation and I think that’s, unless someone comes along and tries to tamp down the situation and to kind of try and cool things down, then I think we’re going to see some violence at least on the streets in the next couple of weeks. 

Jane Coaston: David, thank you so much, as always, for joining me. 

David Gilbert: Glad to be here. 

Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with David Gilbert, who covers disinformation and online extremism for Wired Magazine. We’ll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. [music break]

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Jane Coaston: Here’s what else we’re following today. 

[sung] Headlines. 

[clip of Jeff Gray] I am charged with bringing justice to those who offend our laws. I am charge with bringing injustice for those who harm, for those are harmed. I am charmed with bringing justice for Charlie Kirk. 

Jane Coaston: Utah County Attorney Jeff Gray on Tuesday announced charges against the person accused of assassinating Charlie Kirk at a college campus. The charges include aggravated murder, obstruction of justice, and tampering with a witness. Gray said he’s going to seek the death penalty and outlined evidence against the suspect. That included texts the suspected shooter allegedly sent his roommate the day of Kirk’s murder.

[clip of Jeff Gray] The roommate received a text message from Robinson which said, drop what you’re doing, look under my keyboard. The roommate looked under the keyboard and found a note that stated, quote, “I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I’m going to take it.” 

Jane Coaston: Gray also said police found a photograph of the note. 

[clip of Jeff Gray] After reading the note, the roommate responded, what? You’re joking, right? Robinson, I am still okay, my love, but I’m stuck in Orem for a little while longer yet. Shouldn’t be long until I can come home, but I gotta grab my rifle still. To be honest, I had hoped to keep this secret till I died of old age. I am sorry to involve you. Roommate, you weren’t the one who did it, right? Robinson, I am, I’m sorry. 

Jane Coaston: Gray added that DNA on the trigger of the rifle that killed Kirk was consistent with the suspect’s DNA. The suspect appeared briefly in a virtual court hearing later Tuesday, where a judge read him the charges. Another hearing has been set for the end of the month. Trump is suing the New York Times, again, and four of its reporters for $15 billion. The president accuses the Times of defaming him ahead of the 2024 election with articles that he alleged worked to, quote, “sabotage his candidacy,” and, perhaps most importantly to him, question his reputation as a business mogul. Trump lashed out at the Times on social media, calling it, quote “one of the worst and most degenerate newspapers in the history of our country.” Trump took issue with several Times articles, including one where his former chief of staff, John Kelly, who was also a retired Marine general, confirmed that Trump made several controversial statements, such as calling American soldiers who died in combat, quote, “suckers and losers.” The suit also names Penguin Random House, which published a book about Trump by two of the Times reporters named in the suit. The title, Lucky Loser, How Donald Trump Squandered His Father’s Fortune and Created the Illusion of Success. And the lawsuit says he really didn’t like that the book asserts the Apprentice Producer Mark Burnett quote, “discovered Trump.” The suit even says quote, “President Trump was already a mega celebrity and an enormous success in business,” citing his cameo in Home Alone 2 and appearance at WrestleMania as evidence. The Times, for its part, says the suit is without merit. And Trump reports that the suit getting quote, “amazing feedback.” 

[clip of Effie Defrin] Coordinated and precise strikes, air, ground, and intelligence forces are targeting Hamas military targets that threaten Israel’s security. Gaza City is the central hub of Hamas’ military and governing power. 

Jane Coaston: Israel Defense Force’s spokesperson, Effie Defrin, announced that a long-anticipated offensive in Gaza City officially started Tuesday. The IDF claims up to 3,000 Hamas fighters are holding out there. It also aims to rescue some of the 20 or so hostages still alive. Of course, invading a decimated city without hurting civilians is well, likely impossible. Israel blanketed Gaza City with leaflets and other warnings about the impending attack, But an estimated half million people stayed behind. Defrin blamed Hamas for this, saying that the group succeeded in turning Gaza City into quote, “the largest human shield in history.” And the timetable won’t be a blitz. The IDF says the operation could take months. Turkey, Germany, and other countries have already condemned the attack or called it counterproductive. The operation in Gaza City wasn’t the only PR hit Israel took Tuesday. The UN’s Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian territory, issued its conclusions on whether Israel has committed genocide in Gaza. According to the three-person panel, Israel’s attacks in Gaza have met four out of the five conditions to be considered genocidal. Panel leader Navi Pillay says Israel’s military met the condition of trying to prevent births within a targeted group. 

[clip of Navi Pillay] We give a graphic account of the attack on the fertility center. It’s the only one in Gaza. And killing of embryos, deliberate firing of that standalone building. 

Jane Coaston: Pillay says the Commission has no power to punish Israel, but its findings could be used by the International Criminal Court or other bodies to prosecute Israeli leaders and soldiers. Israel has disputed the Commission’s findings. Fired for holding the line. That’s what Dr. Susan Monarez, the former CDC director dramatically ousted by Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. last month, will tell a Senate panel today, according to prepared remarks obtained by the New York Times. Monarez’s testimony will be her first detailed account of the circumstances leading up to her removal less than a month after she was confirmed by the Senate. She says Kennedy demanded that she commit to approving every recommendation by his hand-picked vaccine advisory panel, quote, “regardless of the scientific evidence.” The hearing will also put eyes on Louisiana Republican Senator Bill Cassidy, an actual medical doctor who is on the fence about Kennedy due to his well-documented anti-vaccine rhetoric. Cassidy ultimately voted to confirm Kennedy. Shocker. It comes as troubling new statistics show that Kennedy’s evidence-free views are resonating. A joint data investigation by NBC News and Stanford University found that childhood vaccination rates are backsliding across the country. So much that a large swath of the U.S. currently doesn’t have the base-level immunity experts say is crucial to stop the spread of measles, which had been nearly eliminated for more than two decades. And a new Washington Post poll finds that one in six parents have delayed or skipped some vaccines for their kids. But wait, there’s more! Kennedy’s vaccine panel is expected to vote later this week to recommend delaying the hepatitis B shot that’s currently given to newborns. And that’s the news. [music break] One more thing, poor Kash Patel and Pam Bondi. Sure, they were nominated and confirmed to be FBI Director and US Attorney General respectively, but they didn’t think they’d have to, you know, do the jobs. So it’s no wonder that both are starting to crash out. Let’s start with Patel. Unfortunately, he is currently running the FBI. Hours after Charlie Kirk was assassinated in the midst of a massive manhunt for the killer and national concern, Patel posted on Twitter. At 6:21 p.m. Eastern on September 10th, he posted, quote, “the subject for the horrific shooting today that took the life of Charlie Kirk is now in custody.” Then 90 minutes later, Patel posted, quote, “the subject in custody has been released after an interrogation by law enforcement.” So helpful. So helpful, in fact, that Patel got a bipartisan deluge of criticism, especially when the alleged killer was not captured by law-enforcement, but turned in by the suspected killer’s family. Though that’s not what Patel said at a press conference announcing the arrest of a suspect on Friday. 

[clip of Kash Patel] Thank you, Governor. This is what happens when you let good cops be cops. 

Jane Coaston: Sure. Let’s turn to Pam Bondi, Attorney General of the United States, a woman who on Wednesday shared her new and exciting interpretation of freedom of speech with Katie Miller, wife of Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller. 

[clip of Pam Bondi] We will absolutely target you, go after you, if you are targeting anyone with hate speech, anything. And that’s across the aisle. 

Jane Coaston: Just to be clear, there is no hate speech carve out in the First Amendment. But we have a president who seems to think that hate speech is prosecutable and includes anything mean you say about him. Here’s Trump speaking to ABC News’ Jonathan Karl on Wednesday. 

[clip of Jonathan Karl] And what do you make Pam Bondi saying she’s going to go after hate speech? Is that, I mean, a lot of people, a lot of your allies say hate speech is free speech. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] Yeah. She’ll probably go after people like you because you treat me so unfairly. It’s hate. You have a lot of hate in your heart. 

[clip of Jonathan Karl] Would that be appropriate? 

[clip of President Donald Trump] Maybe they’ll come after ABC. 

Jane Coaston: So we have a president who opposes the free press, an attorney general who wants to come after people for her version of hate speech, and an FBI director who seems to be happiest when he gets to scream at senators, as he did on Wednesday to California Democratic Senator Adam Schiff. 

[clip of Senator Adam Schiff] This stinks to high heaven. 

[clip of Kash Patel] To ever sit in the United States senate you’re a disgrace to this institution. 

[clip of Senator Adam Schiff] This stinks to high heaven. 

[clip of Kash Patel] And an utter coward. 

[clip of Senator Adam Schiff] I’m not surprised. 

[clip of Kash Patel] I’m not surprised that you continue to lie from your perch and put on a show so you can go raise money. 

Jane Coaston: We’re in great shape, guys. [music break]

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Jane Coaston: That’s all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, save the Costco Prosecco, and tell your friends to listen. And if you’re into reading, and not just about how Costco is recalling bottles of Kirkland brand Prosecco because those bottles might spontaneously explode, like me, What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at crooked.com/subscribe. I’m Jane Coaston and I love Prosecco. It’s my favorite alcoholic beverage. Please do not let my favorite alcoholic beverage explode. [music break] What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It’s recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Emily Fohr. Our video editor is Joseph Dutra. Our video producer is Johanna Case. We had production help today from Greg Walters, Matt Berg, Megan Larsen, Gina Pollack, and Jonah Eatman. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our senior vice president of news and politics is Adriene Hill. We had help today from the Associated Press. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]

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