In This Episode
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TRANSCRIPT
Jane Coaston: It’s Monday, July 21st, I’m Jane Coaston, and this is What a Day, the show that is not feeling great about new research showing that ChatGPT can induce mental health crises. Not feeling great about that at all. [music break] On today’s show, President Donald Trump sues The Wall Street Journal for at least $10 billion over an article claiming he sent a lewd birthday card to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. And CBS pulls the plug on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. But first, let’s talk about artificial intelligence, not the weird AI Facebook slop in which Trump singlehandedly rescues a dog from a flood. No, today we’re talking about deep fakes. This month, the State Department confirmed reports that an imposter reached out to at least five high-ranking government officials claiming to be Secretary of State Marco Rubio. The contacts included a U.S. Senator, a governor, and a handful of foreign ministers. And the imposter used texts, signal messages, and most concerningly, voicemail. And it’s not the first time a member of the Trump administration has been impersonated by AI. Here’s Fox News back in May.
[clip of unnamed Fox News reporter] Federal authorities are investigating efforts to impersonate White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles. The Wall Street Journal reporting that an unknown suspect was acting as Wiles over calls and texts to big-time Republicans and business executives. The impersonator reportedly was asking for cash and pardon advice. Reports also say AI may have been involved to imitate her voice.
Jane Coaston: The pardon advice reference? One unnamed lawmaker says the Wiles impersonator asked him to make a list of people for the president to pardon, which knowing the actual people Trump has already actually pardoned is worrying. In fact, all of this is worrying because yes, deep fakes are very bad for our politics. But many of us, like me for example, have used our real voices and our real images online for years. And that makes it incredibly easy for bad actors to use them against us. And not even for political purposes, but for even simpler, stupider reasons, like to get money out of a colleague or relative who thinks they’re talking to you, but are actually talking to not you. You don’t even have to be a public figure like me. If you’re posting videos of yourself on social media, your voice and pictures can be used too. So for more on the risks deepfakes pose to us all, I spoke to David Gilbert. He covers disinformation and online extremism for WIRED magazine. David, welcome to What a Day!
David Gilbert: Thanks for having me. It’s good to be here.
Jane Coaston: So, as I’m sure you saw, The Washington Post reported recently that someone poste as Secretary of State Marco Rubio using AI to send messages via voicemail, text, and everyone’s favorite app, Signal, to members of the United States government as well as foreign governments. What’s your take on all of this?
David Gilbert: I guess my take is that I’m very unsurprised that it’s happening. Um, I think it’s probably happening a lot more than we know about. It’s just that we’ve, we found out about this, as you say, because of the Washington Post reporting. Um, I think that this type of use of AI to impersonate people is just going to be happening more and more. And the fact that it’s happening to someone in Marco Rubio’s position is unsurprising given how sensitive the information that he has access to and the fact that we already know as a result of Signalgate that the OPSEC of the US government or the administration right now is not exactly the best.
Jane Coaston: Can you talk specifically about the voicemail part? Because I think that for many of us, we’ve gotten weird scammy text messages, but why is a voicemail or using the voice such an effective and potent way to use AI to scam people?
David Gilbert: It’s probably because at the moment, AI voice cloning is probably the part of AI that works the best. It’s incredibly efficient. You only need a couple of seconds of someone’s voice in order to replicate it. And it is very hard to detect. A lot of the deepfake detectors out there can’t detect a fake version from the real version. And I guess when you get a voicemail from someone and it sounds like them. You’re much less likely to think that it’s a scam because it’s, I guess it’s much more personal than a text message. We’ve kind of been trained over the years to kind of second-guess text messages, maybe because there’s been so many scams. Whereas voicemails, when you do get one and it sounds like, you know, someone from your friend or your family, you just don’t tend to even consider that it might be a scam.
Jane Coaston: Right, especially because it’s not like you’re having an interaction with that voice, like you’d have on a phone call, it’s just someone leaving you a voicemail. And given how easily accessible government officials’ voices are, I mean, I hear Donald Trump’s voice every day. Do you think that there will be more instances of these deepfakes?
David Gilbert: Without a doubt. I think they’re happening across the board at the moment. The apps that you use to do this are everywhere. There are so many of them now and they are free. And while some of them have steps in place to prevent you from recreating the voices of celebrities or famous people or, all it is really is a checkbox. And once you do that, you can do whatever you want. And so we’ll see it more with celebrities and politicians and um notable figures being impersonated. But I think what is probably even more scary is that we’ll also see it with highly targeted scams where people’s families and friends will be impersonated because as you say, you might hear Donald Trump’s voice everywhere at the moment, but lots of people post videos of themselves online, you know, people who aren’t famous. And it’s very easy for someone who’s a bad actor to grab that video, take a couple of seconds of the voice, create a clone of it. And again, it’s that deeply personal connection. When you think you’re hearing from someone’s voice, a person, a friend or a family who you know, that’s that’s worrying.
Jane Coaston: So what can average people do to defend themselves? I’ll give you an example. Um. My husband and I, we have come up with kind of like catchphrases or specific things that only we have ever said to each other where if this were to happen, you know I have not talked about this online, I haven’t talked about it on social media. So if this where to happen even if someone with my husband’s voice called me, if I said this and they did not respond in that way, I would know theoretically this isn’t real. Is that a good idea?
David Gilbert: That’s a really good idea. I’m just thinking I need to do that with my wife. Um. That’s an incredibly good idea, it I don’t think many people do it. The thing I say over and over again about social media is whether you’re sharing stuff that isn’t real or you’re potentially getting caught in scams is just slow down. Yes, it might seem like it’s an emergency at the time, but if you take 10, 20, 30 seconds just to just call the person back, Just very quickly. Give them a call because that’s something you might do anyway. Always take a beat. Don’t necessarily give into your emotions, which is what the scammers want you to do. And it’s hugely effective because that’s how people react. They don’t want to wait. They want to give that money. They want send that money, help someone out. And that’s how people get caught. So yes, the idea of having a catchphrase or a code that only you and your partner know is incredibly smart and a good idea. But I think generally for everyone when you get these messages, just slow down a little bit. Just take 10 seconds to think, can I verify this some other way by just calling the person you know and seeing if it’s them that is actually sending you these messages.
Jane Coaston: So back to kind of bigger picture stuff. Trump’s been very friendly with the tech brolegarchy that’s running head first into AI tech. He dove into crypto and then–
David Gilbert: Exactly.
Jane Coaston: You know his first buddy was none other than Elon Musk. But the provision and his shitty spending bill that would have banned states from regulating AI didn’t make it to the final draft and actually made a lot of people very upset. Do you think this means that there could be meaningful legislation to regulate the AI wild west at the state level?
David Gilbert: I’m not optimistic, having spent a decade covering the inability of the U.S. Government at all levels to regulate Facebook or Twitter or any social media platform, I have serious doubts that they will be able to do anything about the AI platforms that are out there at the moment. The figures like Sam Altman and Mark Zuckerberg are so closely aligned with the Trump administration right now that you feel that if any state did stick its head above the parapet and decide that it was going to clamp down on AI to make sure that it’s done in a proper and controlled manner, he may be able to, you know, persuade those state legislators to change their minds because Zuckerberg and Alton seem to have Trump’s ear and he seems to be willing to listen to them as long as they keep funneling money into his campaigns. Um. So I’m not terribly optimistic that any of the efforts that are going to be made are going to have any meaningful impact on these companies.
Jane Coaston: So is anyone trying to rein this in? Because we keep hearing either AI is going to mean all of us are happy forever or it’s going to kill us all, but is there anyone who’s meaningfully trying to regulate how AI is used?
David Gilbert: The European Union is again, probably leading the way into this in terms of how it did so with social media platforms over the last decade or 15 years. And it looks like it may impose some regulations on how AI is deployed. But it’s a very difficult thing to do because AI doesn’t respect borders. And the impetus now seems to be more on who is going to be the leader, world leader in AI. It’s a race between China and the US and at the moment China is winning because it’s kind of leaped ahead of the US in a lot of ways but the fact that this is a race suggests that neither of those two countries at least are going to put any restrictions on AI development or AI use because they don’t want to lose out in this war which both governments seem to believe. You know, whoever wins that race will control the world for the next century or whatever they believe that AI is going to bring about. So the fact that that seems to be the entire focus right now suggests to me that no one is going to regulate it to any meaningful extent in the next few years.
Jane Coaston: Fantastic. David.
David Gilbert: Yeah, sorry about that.
Jane Coaston: David, thank you so much for joining me.
David Gilbert: No problem, thanks for having me.
Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with David Gilbert. He covers disinformation and online extremism for Wired Magazine. We’ll link to his work in our show notes. We’ll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple podcasts, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. [music break]
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Jane Coaston: Here’s what else we’re following today.
[sung] Headlines.
[clip of Karen Bass] None of the National Guard needs to be here. There is nothing happening in our city now. There’s no protests going on. And when they were assigned here, their mission was to guard two buildings. Why do you need 4,000 troops for two buildings? They’ve had to leave their families, their jobs, their education. For what? So that they could participate in performance art?
Jane Coaston: Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass spoke to ABC’s This Week on Sunday about the ongoing presence of National Guard troops in the city. The Trump administration stationed a total of 4,000 of them there in June. Bass said recent immigration and customs enforcement raids spread fear throughout the city, which is roughly 50% Latino. She called out the use of masks by ICE agents, as well as their lack of identification. She said people have no way of knowing the difference between an arrest and a kidnapping.
[clip of Karen Bass] When you enter a profession like policing, like law enforcement. I’m sorry, I don’t think you have a right to have a mask and snatch people off the street.
Jane Coaston: Bass said the threat of mass deportations has hurt LA’s economy and fear of ICE raids is causing people to stay home. About half of the National Guard troops have already been called back from Los Angeles, though it’s unclear why the other 2,000 are still there, even after the protests have subsided. President Trump sued the Wall Street Journal on Friday over an article claiming he once wrote a lewd birthday letter to Jeffrey Epstein. That’s the financier and sex offender who killed himself six years ago before his federal sex trafficking trial. Trump’s court filing calls the journal article, quote, “false, defamatory, unsubstantiated, and disparaging.” The lawsuit seeks at least $10 billion in damages. The paper’s parent company says it’s confident the article will stand up to the legal challenge. The journal says the alleged birthday letter was part of an album of birthday wishes compiled by Epstein co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell in 2003. Reporters describe a sexually explicit doodle with a bizarre note from Trump to Epstein reading in part, quote, “may every day be another wonderful secret.” Trump denies this saying, quote, “I never wrote a picture in my life,” despite the fact that he’s drawn multiple sketches for auction in the past and mentions doing so in his own 2008 book. If only someone would have encouraged his art career earlier in life, maybe we wouldn’t be dealing with all of this. The Wall Street Journal article has, ironically, united the MAGA movement against the press. It’s a brief respite from infighting over how the administration’s handled any alleged Epstein files. You know, the ones that simultaneously exist and don’t exist, depending on what’s convenient for Trump’s acolytes at any given moment. At least 85 Palestinians seeking aid across Gaza were killed Sunday, according to the Gaza Health Ministry. More than 150 were wounded. The United Nations says nearly 900 people seeking aid have been killed in recent weeks. The Associated Press spoke to an eyewitness. [clip of someone speaking indistinct] He’s saying there, quote, “we were waiting for flour because of hunger. We wanted to eat and drink. Suddenly the tanks came out surrounding us. They started shooting at us and we were unable to move. We could not get the flour and we remained surrounded for about an hour and a half to two hours.” The Israeli military claimed they shot at the gathering of people because they posed a threat. It also disputed the casualty numbers reported by health officials in Gaza, though it hasn’t released its own victim count. The Israeli military also issued evacuation orders for parts of the region after Israel and Hamas hit another snag during ceasefire negotiations last week. Mediators say they’re hopeful that recent concessions by Israel might open the door for a deal. But a Hamas video released Friday claims Israel rejected an offer that included the release of all Israeli hostages held in Gaza.
[clip of Stephen Colbert] Next year will be our last season. The network will be ending The Late Show in May. And [crowd booing and upset sounds] Yeah, I share your feelings. It’s not just the end of our show, but it’s the end of the Late Show on CBS. I’m not being replaced. This is all just going away.
Jane Coaston: Stephen Colbert announced the cancellation of The Late Show to his audience at New York’s Ed Sullivan Theater late last week. CBS will ax the program after Colbert’s contract expires in May. The Late show has been on the air since 1993, with Colbert in the host seat for the last decade or so. The decision removes one of President Trump’s most prominent and persistent critics from late night TV. CBS claims it’s purely for financial reasons, but this is where things get dicey. Just days before the decision, Colbert used his monolog to call out the parent company of CBS for its $16 million settlement with Trump over a 60 minutes interview with former Vice President Kamala Harris. Colbert called the settlement a quote, “big fat bribe.”
[clip of Stephen Colbert] As someone who has always been a proud employee of this network, I’m offended, and I don’t know if anything will ever repair my trust in this company. But just taking a stab at it, I’d say $16 million would help.
Jane Coaston: The settlement comes as Paramount wants the Trump administration to approve its sale to Skydance Media. Hmm. Something smells a little fishy. Trump, of course, was thrilled by the news. He posted on Truth Social Friday, quote, “I absolutely love that Colbert got fired. His talent was even less than his ratings.” To be clear, the Late Show with Stephen Colbert is the most-watched network show in late night. And that’s the news.
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Jane Coaston: That’s all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, contemplate the fact that the moon has its own time zone, and tell your friends to listen. And if you’re into reading, and not just about how seriously, NASA and other agencies are working on creating a Coordinated Lunar Time, or CLT, to determine what time it is on the moon, like me, What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at Crooked.com/subscribe. I’m Jane Coaston, and if living on Pacific time but operating on an Eastern Standard Time news cycle is any indication, this new lunar time zone is going to be very complicated for lunar podcasters. [music break] What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It’s recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Emily Fohr. Our producer is Michell Eloy. Our video editor is Joseph Dutra. Our video producer is Johanna Case. We had production help today from Greg Walters, Matt Berg, Tyler Hill, and Laura Newcomb. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our senior vice president of news and politics is Adriene Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. We had help with the headlines today from the Associated Press. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]
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